The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[The_Tribal Chief]

yah but with that being said the city also screwed the flames in the original deal when they took over why the flames backed out

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, The_Snowbear said:

yah but with that being said the city also screwed the flames in the original deal when they took over why the flames backed out

 

Well, if anything, the city added on costs not previously identified.  The Flames decided to walk away, whether I agree or not.  It was something that came on top of agreed to costs.

[The_Tribal Chief]

exactly Travel why i said im leery on weather this is gonna get done cause who is to say they dont add costs again

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, The_Snowbear said:

exactly Travel why i said im leery on weather this is gonna get done cause who is to say they dont add costs again

 

The problem as I saw it was the Flames were on the hook for cost overruns.

That is a problem in an uncertain market.

Construction costs are volatile and with the ongoing war, a risky bet to stay the cost they are.

Absolutely, neither side would like bing stuck being forced to pay more, but somethings are natural.

The Flames won't get the sweetheart deal Katz got in EDM.

That was the last middle finger from the mayor to the city.

Mind you, the impact to the downtown is probably greater than CGY would see.

 

Both sides know they need it.

Neither wants to pay a blank cheque.

It has to be fair and make sense.

 

[sak22]

24 minutes ago, The_Snowbear said:

yah but with that being said the city also screwed the flames in the original deal when they took over why the flames backed out

I don't know if I'd go with screwed its hard to feel bad for billionaires over what will be around Huberdeau's salary for next year.  When this thing is getting built you'll see who actually gets screwed, and again when it is complete and it comes time for buying tickets, food, drink, parking etc. you'll see who's screwed.  It won't be City Council or CSEC.

[The_Tribal Chief]

well the city know if the flames leave this city there in a world of hurt

 

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

 

Mind you, the impact to the downtown is probably greater than CGY would see.

 

 

Ryan Pike was on radio yesterday. He mentioned that Oilers had budgeted 30 years to cover costs. That since has dropped to 7 years. If you look at that it includes all of covid empty arena times too.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Ryan Pike was on radio yesterday. He mentioned that Oilers had budgeted 30 years to cover costs. That since has dropped to 7 years. If you look at that it includes all of covid empty arena times too.

 

It's hard to separate the hockey part from the business part.

Build a new building and lease out to the city for all their staff.

The Oilers had very little overall expenses with regards to the arena.

Compared to any other arena that is.

 

But to your point, that is the kind of turnaround or ROI the Flames want to see.

Just don't know it's ever possible again.

[sak22]

Calgary arena 'fresh start' could include a new downtown location - LiveWire Calgary

 

Quote

Calgary’s Event Centre plan isn’t fixed on the current Victoria Park location, as the sides are committed to looking at all options for a new arena.

The Event Centre committee held its first meeting of 2023, with the updated information delivered behind closed doors.

When the committee last convened, the city announced that they’d entered formal negotiations with Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) through the CAA ICON sports consulting firm.

At that time, Coun. Sonya Sharp, who is chair of the Event Centre committee, said this would be a fresh start. Apparently, that also includes a potential location for the new arena.

Sharp was asked if they’re giving consideration to an Event Centre location outside the Rivers District. The Rivers District is the area immediately around the Calgary Stampede grounds and is guided by the Rivers District Master Plan.  The Culture and Entertainment District is one of the signature aspects of the Rivers District plan and the intent was for the arena to anchor the area.

“If we go back to the conversation we had in I think it was early fall, we talked about this being a fresh start,” said Sharp.  

“So, this is a fresh start. And we are looking… I mentioned we’re looking for building an event center within the city, within downtown and all possible options will be presented.”

When asked if the West Village area was a viable option, Sharp said she couldn’t confirm that. The 2009 West Village Redevelopment plan is still on the books with the City of Calgary.

There’s speculation the West Village site, the home of the CalgaryNext arena project back in the 2010s, is still high on the list of CSEC’s preferred sites.  That $1.8 billion redevelopment project, with a proposed $890 million arena and a multisport fieldhouse, was cancelled in 2017.

Are we just going to spend all that time just to wind up back with the CalgaryNext project.

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Calgary arena 'fresh start' could include a new downtown location - LiveWire Calgary

 

Are we just going to spend all that time just to wind up back with the CalgaryNext project.

 

As soon as we talk about that site, we are bringing back in creosote mitigation.

Wasn't that what killed Next?

 

I guess if they go back to that plan, then there isn't need to also replace McMahon.

[sak22]

24 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

As soon as we talk about that site, we are bringing back in creosote mitigation.

Wasn't that what killed Next?

 

I guess if they go back to that plan, then there isn't need to also replace McMahon.

One factor and one that still needs to be addressed, the costs were going to be significantly more than CSEC's proposal indicated, I believe CSEC's numbers were 900 million and the city's expectations were over 1.5 billion and I think deep down the city didn't want to even consider building an event center outside of Victoria Park, but I guess new council is willing to entertain those discussions.  My preference is still the Victoria Park location.

[cross16]

This may have changed but the report the city commissioned to look into the project actually reported the creosote mitigation cost at much less than what the city was expecting. The project ultimately fell flat because the 900 million cost that CESC pitched wound up being only the cost to actually build the facilities. The city's report detailed that when you factored in interest costs, land costs, utilities etc it was going to be almost double and the project quickly lost support. 

 

I agree with Sak that with different people at the table taking a fresh look at things is not a bad thing but given the report the City commissioned i'd be awfully surprised to see what could have changed that would make CalgaryNext feasible again. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

This may have changed but the report the city commissioned to look into the project actually reported the creosote mitigation cost at much less than what the city was expecting. The project ultimately fell flat because the 900 million cost that CESC pitched wound up being only the cost to actually build the facilities. The city's report detailed that when you factored in interest costs, land costs, utilities etc it was going to be almost double and the project quickly lost support. 

 

I agree with Sak that with different people at the table taking a fresh look at things is not a bad thing but given the report the City commissioned i'd be awfully surprised to see what could have changed that would make CalgaryNext feasible again. 

 

I'm all in favor of a deal getting worked out.  Whatever that looks like.

I don't think anything about the old proposal is any more attractive today.

Not unless the Feds pay that portion.

Location wise, I don't really have any preferences.

That's just me, since I don't live in the city and pay those taxes.

 

[conundrumed]

Did Ken King carry a lot of influence regarding the reaction to the city's snuffing CalgaryNext?

I guess I'm asking if they'll all be adulting now? It's been a pretty miserable drama of he said/she said up until recent talks.

[The_People1]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:19 PM, conundrumed said:

Did Ken King carry a lot of influence regarding the reaction to the city's snuffing CalgaryNext?

I guess I'm asking if they'll all be adulting now? It's been a pretty miserable drama of he said/she said up until recent talks.

 

Ken King and mayor Nenshi never got along.  Mostly new people at the table now so hopefully we get better results.

 

I've always liked the CalgaryNext vision.  It wasn't economically unfeasible at the time but it was a project that did a lot for the city of Calgary.  The West village area is in need of re-vitalization and re-development.  Right now it's just prime real estate just gone to waste.  We also kill two birds with one stone upgrading an arena for the Flames and a stadium for the Stampeders.  Lastly, we clean up the area of creosote.

 

With new people at the table, maybe we can get creative with an airport tax or an area levy tax.  Something could happen to get enough funding.

[CheersMan]

In 2015 (8 yrs ago) Ken King and the CESC submitted a proposal to the City of Calgary called “Calgary Next”. It was a mastermind project, and if accepted would have been completed by now. It scratched all the itches the City was suffering from but it was way ahead of its time, at least for the small minded politicians (Nenshi) and supporters. The project was to include an indoor Field House, Event Centre, Hockey Arena and indoor Football Stadium, all for $890M. The cost to the City was half ($450M) plus the cost to clean up any subsurface creosote contamination encountered. The City (Gondek -which is a Nenshi apprentice) has since committed to spent $285M for a Field House at Foothills Park plus an estimated $200M for the BMO Event Centre Expansion. For those poor in math, that tallies $485M so far, which is more than what the tax payer would have paid for their portion of Calgary Next, and we still don’t have an Arena, or and indoor Football Stadium, and the Creosote is still in the ground, waiting to get cleaned up. Bravo Calgary voters, we are doing it your way. Let’s talk and talk and talk some more, maybe talk about going back to Ken’s original plan, Calgary Next. Maybe we can talk about where the Flames could relocate. Murray Edwards has been plenty patient with these moron politicians.   

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, CheersMan said:

In 2015 (8 yrs ago) Ken King and the CESC submitted a proposal to the City of Calgary called “Calgary Next”. It was a mastermind project, and if accepted would have been completed by now. It scratched all the itches the City was suffering from but it was way ahead of its time, at least for the small minded politicians (Nenshi) and supporters. The project was to include an indoor Field House, Event Centre, Hockey Arena and indoor Football Stadium, all for $890M. The cost to the City was half ($450M) plus the cost to clean up any subsurface creosote contamination encountered. The City (Gondek -which is a Nenshi apprentice) has since committed to spent $285M for a Field House at Foothills Park plus an estimated $200M for the BMO Event Centre Expansion. For those poor in math, that tallies $485M so far, which is more than what the tax payer would have paid for their portion of Calgary Next, and we still don’t have an Arena, or and indoor Football Stadium, and the Creosote is still in the ground, waiting to get cleaned up. Bravo Calgary voters, we are doing it your way. Let’s talk and talk and talk some more, maybe talk about going back to Ken’s original plan, Calgary Next. Maybe we can talk about where the Flames could relocate. Murray Edwards has been plenty patient with these moron politicians.   

 

I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of reasons why the original was rejected.

Perhaps it was the see through top that irked some.

Creosote?  What creosote?  It's in the river now so why bother.

In theory, there would have been fed funding to clean it up.

And province would kick in, since it's a environmental concern,

Naw, let's worry about putting windmills outside the new dome or add some solar panels.

 

If I recall, the city didn't want expansion of commercial space in the West Village since they wanted condos etc.

So it was never about the cleanup, just the vision.

Is that correct in your mind?

[cross16]

10 hours ago, CheersMan said:

In 2015 (8 yrs ago) Ken King and the CESC submitted a proposal to the City of Calgary called “Calgary Next”. It was a mastermind project, and if accepted would have been completed by now. It scratched all the itches the City was suffering from but it was way ahead of its time, at least for the small minded politicians (Nenshi) and supporters. The project was to include an indoor Field House, Event Centre, Hockey Arena and indoor Football Stadium, all for $890M. The cost to the City was half ($450M) plus the cost to clean up any subsurface creosote contamination encountered. The City (Gondek -which is a Nenshi apprentice) has since committed to spent $285M for a Field House at Foothills Park plus an estimated $200M for the BMO Event Centre Expansion. For those poor in math, that tallies $485M so far, which is more than what the tax payer would have paid for their portion of Calgary Next, and we still don’t have an Arena, or and indoor Football Stadium, and the Creosote is still in the ground, waiting to get cleaned up. Bravo Calgary voters, we are doing it your way. Let’s talk and talk and talk some more, maybe talk about going back to Ken’s original plan, Calgary Next. Maybe we can talk about where the Flames could relocate. Murray Edwards has been plenty patient with these moron politicians.   

 

A lot of misinformation here. 

 

The $890 million was only the cost to build the facilities. The entire project was going to cost over 1.5 billion and the city on the hook for over 1 billion.

The $285 million for a fieldhouse is not a new commitment. Pre CalgaryNext the City had plans to build a fieldhouse and set aside a $250 million budget item to do so, they just never funded it. CalgaryNext incorporated the fieldhouse as a way to move that budget item into the project and to gain more public dollars but the plans have existed since before CalgaryNext. 

The BMO expansion talks were underway while CalgaryNext was being discussed and is a entirely separate project. Not sure why the commitment there has anything to do with CalgaryNext as the need for a convention center existed before, and would have existed after, CalgaryNext or any arena. 

 

[conundrumed]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

A lot of misinformation here. 

 

The $890 million was only the cost to build the facilities. The entire project was going to cost over 1.5 billion and the city on the hook for over 1 billion.

The $285 million for a fieldhouse is not a new commitment. Pre CalgaryNext the City had plans to build a fieldhouse and set aside a $250 million budget item to do so, they just never funded it. CalgaryNext incorporated the fieldhouse as a way to move that budget item into the project and to gain more public dollars but the plans have existed since before CalgaryNext. 

The BMO expansion talks were underway while CalgaryNext was being discussed and is a entirely separate project. Not sure why the commitment there has anything to do with CalgaryNext as the need for a convention center existed before, and would have existed after, CalgaryNext or any arena. 

 

This is more the way I recall it. I love the location idea, but it wasn't a very compelling proposition for taxpayers. To make matters worse, CSEC got all indignant about it. Wasn't so much a negotiation as a demand.

CSEC has been handling this poorly all along is my recollection.

Definitely needed a 3rd party to take the arrogance out of CSEC and get them to behave above a childish level.

Question. Is this project not a great investment venture, or is everyone still stuck on building seniors homes?

[CheersMan]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of reasons why the original was rejected.

Perhaps it was the see through top that irked some.

Creosote?  What creosote?  It's in the river now so why bother.

In theory, there would have been fed funding to clean it up.

And province would kick in, since it's a environmental concern,

Naw, let's worry about putting windmills outside the new dome or add some solar panels.

 

If I recall, the city didn't want expansion of commercial space in the West Village since they wanted condos etc.

So it was never about the cleanup, just the vision.

Is that correct in your mind?

If you look at CalgaryNext web page and their vision, it was surrounded by high rise condos. Every neighbor hood needs an anchor and CalgaryNext would have been the ancho to attract BOOM development in west village, so no I don’t think it had anything to do with commercial space, you need a balance of residential and commercial amenities to attract people.

 

The issue was Nenshi, his argument was “people benefit”, he did not see the benefit of the project to the people of Calgary, he wouldn’t listen anyway. Nenshi was not going to pay 1 cent of tax payer dollars, he probably has never paid 5 cents to go see a hockey game or a football game, sports and entertainment was not in his fabric, so we all suffered.

 

The other hot potato was the subsurface contamination cleanup, Nenshi wanted nothing to do with it late in his 3^rd term, let others deal with it, retire unscathed. This guy was a cast off in the real world and banished to a classroom, only to be resurrected by 1000’s of kids at Mount Royal University wanting a voice, it was an anomaly, and we got stuck with him for over a decade.

 

The $890M project (structure) plus clean-up was a Swiss army knife like no other to satisfy 5 major objectives at pennies on the dollar. The opportunity is lost, it’s gone, we are now committed to sinking 100’s of millions if not 1000’s of millions into each objective, one at a time, all because of lack of vision.

[cross16]

13 hours ago, conundrumed said:

This is more the way I recall it. I love the location idea, but it wasn't a very compelling proposition for taxpayers. To make matters worse, CSEC got all indignant about it. Wasn't so much a negotiation as a demand.

CSEC has been handling this poorly all along is my recollection.

Definitely needed a 3rd party to take the arrogance out of CSEC and get them to behave above a childish level.

Question. Is this project not a great investment venture, or is everyone still stuck on building seniors homes?

 

 

Ya it hasn't been very good IMO. To give them a bit of a break they've handled it like most pro sports team do but I think they incorrectly assumed they'd garner public support no matter what. Easy to blame 1 person but CalgaryNext fell flat because it never really garnered much public support. I remember most didn't really like the idea, hated the roof and then once that report came out showing it would cost over 1.5 billion the majority of Calgarians weren't for it. It never really got off the ground with most citizens in this city and I think in large part because CESC really misread their support and how the landscape has changed. 

Elements of it were cool. Have a football stadium DT would have been cool, the idea to have it right on the river was very cool but the project was just totally unfeasible iMO and not just because of the cost. The location was (and iMO still isn't) very good when you really think about it. 

 

I think the Victoria Park option is truly their best option for a new building. 

[The_People1]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the Victoria Park option is truly their best option for a new building. 

 

Building materials and supplies are cheap again.  It's a good time to get construction going again on the Victoria Park plan.

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Ya it hasn't been very good IMO. To give them a bit of a break they've handled it like most pro sports team do but I think they incorrectly assumed they'd garner public support no matter what. Easy to blame 1 person but CalgaryNext fell flat because it never really garnered much public support. I remember most didn't really like the idea, hated the roof and then once that report came out showing it would cost over 1.5 billion the majority of Calgarians weren't for it. It never really got off the ground with most citizens in this city and I think in large part because CESC really misread their support and how the landscape has changed. 

Elements of it were cool. Have a football stadium DT would have been cool, the idea to have it right on the river was very cool but the project was just totally unfeasible iMO and not just because of the cost. The location was (and iMO still isn't) very good when you really think about it. 

 

I think the Victoria Park option is truly their best option for a new building. 

 

The concept pictures made it a hard sell.  That was the best they could come up with?

Have to get away from the iconic buildings and get more aesthetic designs out to the public.

We don't need the Oil Drop or the Saddledome.

Next was too much of a gimmic.

 

 

[sak22]

54 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The concept pictures made it a hard sell.  That was the best they could come up with?

Have to get away from the iconic buildings and get more aesthetic designs out to the public.

We don't need the Oil Drop or the Saddledome.

Next was too much of a gimmic.

 

 

The pictures were hideous, but they were still in the conceptual stage.  I didn't like the kill 2 birds with one stone approach to the football stadium/fieldhouse, as much as I want a replacement for McMahaon (more than the Saddledome), and at a better location, an indoor stadium was never something I had in mind as the majority of the season is played in the summer, but also would've meant an artificial playing surface which should be leaving the sport.  So just having that part was disappointing for me.  Plus for commuting, the WV is convenient for 1 LRT line with an inconvenience to the other 2 (given the green line gets built, which has been just as big of an issue as the arena), Victoria Park location would serve 2 lines with a slight inconvenience to the other (which is the one which would benefit from the other).  

 

 

[jjgallow]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:33 AM, travel_dude said:

 

The concept pictures made it a hard sell.  That was the best they could come up with?

Have to get away from the iconic buildings and get more aesthetic designs out to the public.

We don't need the Oil Drop or the Saddledome.

Next was too much of a gimmic.

 

 

That's a big thing for me man.  When I look at their concept pictures, and I look at the dome, I'm like.  yeah.  Dome thanks.

 

 

So, with all the recent shakeups, wondering how this will affect the Arena situation?   Feels like it could be an election issue now, but with the Flames not in the drivers seat