420since1974 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 IMO, Nenshi is definitely past his "best before date" (all politicians have one). I expect him to find funding for all of his pet projects, during what surely should be his last term as mayor. He will be seeking a legacy project that puts him name firmly in the history books. What it will be, only he knows right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 11, 2017 Report Share Posted December 11, 2017 Eric Francis adding crap to the debate.... http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/francis-150-million-more-reasons-for-flames-owners-to-sell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted December 11, 2017 Report Share Posted December 11, 2017 29 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Eric Francis adding crap to the debate.... http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/francis-150-million-more-reasons-for-flames-owners-to-sell $150-million reasons for the Flames... $350-million reasons for the Coyotes. $340-million reasons for the Panthers. $300-million reasons for the Sabres. $280-million reasons for the Hurricanes. $250-million reasons for the Jets. $250-million reasons for the Islanders. $250-million reasons for the Devil's. Etc. By that logic (and I don't ever want to accuse Eric Francis of having any), the Flames need to get in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABC923 Posted December 11, 2017 Report Share Posted December 11, 2017 Lots of holes in this analysis, not least of which is that it assumes anyone with 650 million can just walk in and buy an expansion team. Sometimes expansion just isn't in the cards for the league. It is right now, as we need one more western team to balance the conferences, but after that? So to suggest that the flames are now suddenly worth 650 million is ridiculous. They are worth what someone will pay for them and what the ownership is willing to accept. The article more or less reads like it was written by Burke/Bettman/Murray. Has a certain 'you should be grateful to give us hundreds of millions of dollars to fund our business' feel to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted December 11, 2017 Report Share Posted December 11, 2017 We all want a new arena but it has to be at a price tag that makes sense for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 4 hours ago, The_People1 said: By that logic (and I don't ever want to accuse Eric Francis of having any), the Flames need to get in line. There must be logic somewhere....maybe in how he gets paid off to write his articles? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 4 hours ago, ABC923 said: Lots of holes in this analysis, not least of which is that it assumes anyone with 650 million can just walk in and buy an expansion team. Sometimes expansion just isn't in the cards for the league. It is right now, as we need one more western team to balance the conferences, but after that? So to suggest that the flames are now suddenly worth 650 million is ridiculous. They are worth what someone will pay for them and what the ownership is willing to accept. The article more or less reads like it was written by Burke/Bettman/Murray. Has a certain 'you should be grateful to give us hundreds of millions of dollars to fund our business' feel to it. I think the article is crap. The guy is a fool. What I also think is that anybody could buy the team, if it goes up for sale. Whether that team is able to move to another city is another story. If they did, then the economic loss is tangible. To what extent is debatable. If that happened, then perhaps the mayor should resign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtownguy Posted December 14, 2017 Report Share Posted December 14, 2017 On December 11, 2017 at 8:44 PM, jjgallow said: There must be logic somewhere....maybe in how he gets paid off to write his articles? Francis really seems to be looking for a PR job with the Flames. The article did not add much to the present discussion. I got it Francis, the team could leave the city. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 16, 2017 Report Share Posted December 16, 2017 Melnyk is not happy with the lack of support from the fan base... Senators owner causes stir with relocation comments... http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/article/Senators-owner-causes-stir-with-relocation-12435282.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Carty said: Melnyk is not happy with the lack of support from the fan base... Senators owner causes stir with relocation comments... http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/article/Senators-owner-causes-stir-with-relocation-12435282.php Melnyk is such a clown. I'm glad I'm not a Sens fan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said: Melnyk is such a clown. I'm glad I'm not a Sens fan... Me too... and he can be a cheap bastard... But my point was more that the Sens could be a team that is a candidate to move to Houston, Seattle or Quebec, etc... More so than the Flames... At least at this point... If Nenshi wants to make a serious bid to host the Olympics, he is going to have to be more flexible... He wants it for a legacy, and he is not going to get anywhere with a bid by telling the Olympic comity his plan is to host hockey, etc elsewhere in a different city... The taxpayers of Calgary would also poop bricks if they learned that they were going to be footing a huge bill so that the most lucrative events that would be a major factor to recoup the money involved would be going elsewhere rather than helping to pay the bills... On the Flames side, they need to have a different person(s) negotiating on their side... I have my doubts if King should remain involved at the forefront... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, Carty said: Me too... and he can be a cheap bastard... But my point was more that the Sens could be a team that is a candidate to move to Houston, Seattle or Quebec, etc... More so than the Flames... At least at this point... If Nenshi wants to make a serious bid to host the Olympics, he is going to have to be more flexible... He wants it for a legacy... and the Flames need to have a different person(s) negotiating on their side... I have my doubts if King should remain involved at the forefront... King is the worse possible guy as a spokesperson. In reality he is the guy for the umbrella corp, not the Flames themselves. Made sense if they were doing a deal like Next. Not so much just the Flames. Nenshi is a tool. The city can't afford the Olympics. His vision of the Dome area sounds nice, but how do you expect a team to own a stadium and you put the development together without input. "We see you fitting into our vision, but we don't want you to have any say other than building a rink according to our specs.". Who would ever agree to that? If you are a developer, then you have your own vision for surrounding area. Maybe they should renovate the new library to have an ice surface. I've heard the Dome described as the library before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 36 minutes ago, Carty said: Me too... and he can be a cheap bastard... But my point was more that the Sens could be a team that is a candidate to move to Houston, Seattle or Quebec, etc... More so than the Flames... At least at this point... If Nenshi wants to make a serious bid to host the Olympics, he is going to have to be more flexible... He wants it for a legacy, and he is not going to get anywhere with a bid by telling them his plan is to host hockey, etc elsewhere in a different city... The taxpayers of Calgary would also poop bricks if they learned that they were going to be footing a huge bill so that the most lucrative events that would be a major factor to recoup the money involved would be going elsewhere rather than helping to pay the bill... On the Flames side, they need to have a different person(s) negotiating on their side... I have my doubts if King should remain involved at the forefront... I agree. I think there's a deal to be made here in Calgary at some point both sides need to put their egos aside at some point and get back to the table. A top 10 team in attendance doesn't move... http://mynhltraderumors.com/nhl-attendance-after-10-home-games-2017-2018/2017/12/14/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Personally, I think the Flames botched a deal by waiting too long and should’ve done so when the economy was at its peak. I probably asked this before, but, how much would an arena gain the city in employment while it is being built? Jobs are good. There’ll be jobs again after, just not as many. But apparently, with a high class building the best shows will come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted December 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Personally, I think the Flames botched a deal by waiting too long and should’ve done so when the economy was at its peak. I probably asked this before, but, how much would an arena gain the city in employment while it is being built? Jobs are good. There’ll be jobs again after, just not as many. But apparently, with a high class building the best shows will come? I don't agree they should have tried to make this deal when economy was good. The economy good or bad rarely has an effect on capitol projects that are long term. In fact you see more government money being spent in poor economic times to help fight the inflation or high unemployed times by creating jobs which stimulate economies. I think King's mistake was not consulting the city with his plans beforehand. The "next project" was to be his legacy and had he just talked to the city before with indications of where and how etc he might have tried for something the city was more willing to look at. The cleanup was the biggest hurdle and the area was the biggest surprise to the city. Flames obviously chat with some important people beforehand about what they wanted to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 19 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Personally, I think the Flames botched a deal by waiting too long and should’ve done so when the economy was at its peak. I probably asked this before, but, how much would an arena gain the city in employment while it is being built? Jobs are good. There’ll be jobs again after, just not as many. But apparently, with a high class building the best shows will come? When the economy is at its peak, labour, materials and equipment is thin or non existent, therefore prices sky rocket as a result. Recessions are not only a good time to get best bang for the buck but also kick start an economy. Rogers Place employed over 8000 ppl during construction with as many as 1200 ppl on site at one time. As long as Nenshi is mayor there will be no new arena. Four more years I guess before it becomes a conversation piece again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 On 2017-12-16 at 7:55 PM, CheersMan said: When the economy is at its peak, labour, materials and equipment is thin or non existent, therefore prices sky rocket as a result. Recessions are not only a good time to get best bang for the buck but also kick start an economy. Rogers Place employed over 8000 ppl during construction with as many as 1200 ppl on site at one time. As long as Nenshi is mayor there will be no new arena. Four more years I guess before it becomes a conversation piece again. There is still a lot of capital projects going on in Calgary and I highly doubt prices have come down any. Our Province and Municipalities are having to deal with the realities of lesser revenues from the Oil industry so arenas are rightfully so not a high priority right now. We also should know that most if not all the Flames owners made their wealth and maintain a lot of their investments within the Oil industry. We may have to wait until the NDP are out and capital investment returns to the Oil industry before this gets back on track. In the mean time Bettman needs to keep his mouth shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 0:18 PM, MAC331 said: Municipalities are having to deal with the realities of lesser revenues from the Oil industry so arenas are rightfully so not a high priority right now. Nenshi and co. have spent a lot of money on so called "art" and megabucks on the Arts Commons, all 6 levels and over 400,00 square feet of it in the same economic downturn for which he claims economic hardship for not being able to put money towards building a new arena... Most of the "art" is way overpriced, and butt ugly, and has been produced by "artists" from outside the Province and out of the country... Add to that the fact he is serious about making a bid to host the Olympics which only last a short period of time, for a lot more money than an arena, without an arena... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtownguy Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 17 minutes ago, Carty said: Nenshi and co. have spent a lot of money on so called "art" and megabucks on the Arts Commons, all 6 levels and over 400,00 square feet of it in the same economic downturn for which he claims economic hardship for not being able to put money towards building a new arena... Most of the "art is way overpriced, and butt ugly, and has been produced by "artists from outside the Province and out of the country... Add to that the fact he is serious about making a bid to host the Olympics which only last a short period of time, for a lot more money than an arena, without an arena... Those projects were planned some time ago I suspect. I am not a big fan of them either, and quite frankly, I am outraged that they went with out of province artists. It irks me even further when there are fights about a lot of this so-called art. I agree with making bridges more aesthetically pleasing (i.e. not what they put up in Montreal or Edmonton), but I am not sure why the city is in the art business. I will be first in line complaining to Nenshi if we host the Olympics. I would rather spend the billion on CalgaryNext rather than that corrupt crap. At least the Flames are here. The Olympics will ultimately decide what type of arena we get. Once the decision is made about that, then the arena will follow shortly. The city wants to externalize the arena cost to the province and feds like the Flames want to externalize it to the city. The arena is happening. I doubt anyone thought that it would take a couple of years to get done. The Oilers went through an ugly process for about a decade. This is all about negotiation IMO. ETA: I still think that CalgaryNext should be reconsidered. I am not sure about the location though, but I like the multi-facility idea. I don't know why money cannot be obtained from the province to clean up the waste around the river. They are just going to wait until people are sick and launch a law suit!? WTF!? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 28 minutes ago, Carty said: Nenshi and co. have spent a lot of money on so called "art" and megabucks on the Arts Commons, all 6 levels and over 400,00 square feet of it in the same economic downturn for which he claims economic hardship for not being able to put money towards building a new arena... Most of the "art is way overpriced, and butt ugly, and has been produced by "artists from outside the Province and out of the country... Add to that the fact he is serious about making a bid to host the Olympics which only last a short period of time, for a lot more money than an arena, without an arena... Point well taken on Nenshi but the bigger picture is more of what will hold back this arena project. Quite honestly I think this is all a big stall on all the parties involved. I believe it eventually gets the go ahead but not the Calgary NEXT plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubblejumper1 Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 On 2017-12-22 at 0:18 PM, MAC331 said: There is still a lot of capital projects going on in Calgary and I highly doubt prices have come down any. Our Province and Municipalities are having to deal with the realities of lesser revenues from the Oil industry so arenas are rightfully so not a high priority right now. We also should know that most if not all the Flames owners made their wealth and maintain a lot of their investments within the Oil industry. We may have to wait until the NDP are out and capital investment returns to the Oil industry before this gets back on track. In the mean time Bettman needs to keep his mouth shut. I may be misunderstanding your post, but it is going to take a lot more than voting in a new provincial government to get capital investment back into the Alberta oil and gas industry. Assuming Jason Kenney wins the next provincial election, he won’t be any more effective at Getting pipelines built than Rachel Notley, Alison Redford or Ed Stelmach. The pipeline decisions are out of the Alberta government’s hands. The governments in B.C., Quebec and Nebraska are the ones that need to approve construction. Once those governments approve construction TCPL/Enbridge/Kinder Morgan have to make final investment decisions (until these companies break ground on construction they are doing little more than political posturing). Beyond the pipeline issues, Canada has a carbon tax that makes our oil industry less competitive. Kenney can remove Alberta’s carbon tax, but he has no say in getting rid of Trudeau’s carbon tax that would replace the Alberta carbon tax. Finally, and most importantly, current oil prices do not justify significant spending in the oil sands. Major oil companies have better investment opportunities elsewhere. I agree that a rink likely will not be built until the Alberta oil and gas industry picks up, but the industry will not pick up significantly with a new provincial government. The one one wild card is a rink may be built if Calgary wins another Olympic bid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said: Those projects were planned some time ago I suspect Nenshi promised a field house some time ago... But decided an Arts Commons that would benefit less people was a priority... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 Maybe they could simply add a Weed tax on to pay for the arena. Seems to me that NDP will be raking in Carbon Tax money and Weed revenues downloaded from the Feds. Will any of that ever go to the purposes it's being collected? Carbon Tax - yeah right Weed Tax - regulation and policing - yeah right I don't get the lesser revenues from the Oil industry impacting municipalities. Tax revenues are property based, which have not dramatically decreased. Unless they move to another city, those revenues exist and increase every year. More people out of work, but that is only impact social programs. Foreclosures still result in tax dollars being paid by someone. I can understand the Flames not wanting the deal Nenshi floated, because they do not want to own the building without input on the development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 1 hour ago, stubblejumper1 said: I may be misunderstanding your post, but it is going to take a lot more than voting in a new provincial government to get capital investment back into the Alberta oil and gas industry. Assuming Jason Kenney wins the next provincial election, he won’t be any more effective at Getting pipelines built than Rachel Notley, Alison Redford or Ed Stelmach. The pipelines decisions are out of the Alberta government’s hands. The governments in B.C., Quebec and Nebraska are the ones that need to approve construction. Once those governments approve construction TCPL/Enbridge/Kinder Morgan have to make final investment decisions (until these companies break ground on construction they are doing little more than political posturing). Beyond the pipeline issues, Canada has a carbon tax that makes our oil industry less competitive. Kenney can remove Alberta’s carbon tax, but he has no say in getting rid current of Trudeau’s carbon tax that would replace the Alberta carbon tax. Finally, and most importantly, current oil prices do not justify significant spending in the oil sands. Major oil companies have better investment opportunities elsewhere. I agree that a rink likely will not be built until the Alberta oil and gas industry picks up, but the industry will not pick up significantly with a new provincial government. The one one wild card is a rink may be built if Calgary wins another Olympic bid. I understand all of what you are saying here but it has to and will start somewhere and removing the NDP is essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRT2017 Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 18 hours ago, MAC331 said: Point well taken on Nenshi but the bigger picture is more of what will hold back this arena project. Quite honestly I think this is all a big stall on all the parties involved. I believe it eventually gets the go ahead but not the Calgary NEXT plan. I am new to the debate but not new to Calgary. I agree with your statement - I think there is a deal to be had just not the Calgary NEXT plan. I hope that at some point in 2018 we will start to see both sides come together and a solid discussion start to take place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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