Official Sam Bennett Discussion Thread

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I don't see it as Bennett riding shotgun. I just think as a winger he drives the play more because he doesn't have to worry about other duties as a center. Bennett plays this way regardless of what line he is on when is a winger. 

 

I like him as a winger. This is why around the draft I was saying drafting more centers isn't a bad thing. They can always play wing if they need to.

Sorry I didn't mean it as riding SM's coat tails.

[cross16]

Problem I have with calling up kids is pretty much all of them are jut finding their grove in the A. IMO one of the most dangerous things you can do with a prospect I get him into the game of Yo Yo between the A and the NHL. I think that is what really harm their development because they can never really work on getting better. Need to think long term, not short term. 

 

I think bennett was actually playing pretty well as a centre and the small details in his game we're improving. However I understand the desire to get him going offensively by putting him in better situations to do so. He'll be back at centre soon and IMO will still be a centre at the NHL level. 

[robrob74]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Problem I have with calling up kids is pretty much all of them are jut finding their grove in the A. IMO one of the most dangerous things you can do with a prospect I get him into the game of Yo Yo between the A and the NHL. I think that is what really harm their development because they can never really work on getting better. Need to think long term, not short term. 

 

I think bennett was actually playing pretty well as a centre and the small details in his game we're improving. However I understand the desire to get him going offensively by putting him in better situations to do so. He'll be back at centre soon and IMO will still be a centre at the NHL level. 

 

 

I really liked that he was on with Monahan. There were a few times Monahan was waved out of the circle and Bennett took the draws and won them. That really helped when we were in the offensive zone. 

I am good with either for him. Whatever is best for his career and his development. 

[conundrumed]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Problem I have with calling up kids is pretty much all of them are jut finding their grove in the A. IMO one of the most dangerous things you can do with a prospect I get him into the game of Yo Yo between the A and the NHL. I think that is what really harm their development because they can never really work on getting better. Need to think long term, not short term. 

 

I think bennett was actually playing pretty well as a centre and the small details in his game we're improving. However I understand the desire to get him going offensively by putting him in better situations to do so. He'll be back at centre soon and IMO will still be a centre at the NHL level. 

That's a great point and why you sign Chiasson and Vey-types, buying time.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

That's a great point and why you sign Chiasson and Vey-types, buying time.

 

Ezactky. I get fans don't like it, but it's the right way to do it I think. Let guys get comfortable in one league before you talk about moving them up. We've been spoiled with guys like Gaudrea, Mony and Tkachuk and forget that isn't the norm in how people develop. 

[DirtyDeeds]

24 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Ezactky. I get fans don't like it, but it's the right way to do it I think. Let guys get comfortable in one league before you talk about moving them up. We've been spoiled with guys like Gaudrea, Mony and Tkachuk and forget that isn't the norm in how people develop. 

I disagree. The league is going younger and younger and more often the young and higher draft picks are able to find a spot in the lineup first year. This is not just larger and more skilled, but also they train for it, they are coached for it to get into the NHL sooner. In the old days the prospects did not know how or what the demands of the NHL would be but today they have personal coaches & trainers like Gary Roberts willing to show them and train them.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I disagree. The league is going younger and younger and more often the young and higher draft picks are able to find a spot in the lineup first year. This is not just larger and more skilled, but also they train for it, they are coached for it to get into the NHL sooner. In the old days the prospects did not know how or what the demands of the NHL would be but today they have personal coaches & trainers like Gary Roberts willing to show them and train them.

 

 

Sure but you are still talking about 10 or less guys a year out of the 200 who get drafted. It still isn't the norm to have young players in you lineup without spending at least a couple of seasons developing elsewhere. 

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Ezactky. I get fans don't like it, but it's the right way to do it I think. Let guys get comfortable in one league before you talk about moving them up. We've been spoiled with guys like Gaudrea, Mony and Tkachuk and forget that isn't the norm in how people develop. 

 

We are also seeing these guys go through some hardships right now, and they've been in the league for a few years already. What does it do for those still developing their game to slump? 

 

I think success begets success and you see it in players like Toews. I am not saying our prospects are Toews, but I think if we can get them to have winning attitudes it can carry over to the NHL.  Maybe they'd grow a distaste for losing, much like Toews and Kane and Co. 

 

some dont agree that success transfers, I just don't see how it can't. 

 

I will have to look at how TB's farm looked for the years before the coach got promoted because they could be a good example of growing as a group in the A. It could kill my argument ?

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Sure but you are still talking about 10 or less guys a year out of the 200 who get drafted. It still isn't the norm to have young players in you lineup without spending at least a couple of seasons developing elsewhere. 

 

And even if they develop for a few years elsewhere, they're still considered very young when they get into the NHL. 

[Flyerfan52]

I'll remind you all that the main purpose of a farm team is to help the parent team as needed. It is not to win the Calder Cup.

A call up to the big team reminds the player he hasn't fallen off the radar. Most know they'll go back down when they've fulfilled their temporary role but it still gives them a boost & keeps the idea of longer term NHL time in their minds.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I'll remind you all that the main purpose of a farm team is to help the parent team as needed. It is not to win the Calder Cup.

A call up to the big team reminds the player he hasn't fallen off the radar. Most know they'll go back down when they've fulfilled their temporary role but it still gives them a boost & keeps the idea of longer term NHL time in their minds.

But it's typically an IR call up, not liquid spots left open to slide Heat players in and out of.

When JG, Versteeg and Bouma are back, there is no room.

If you want to argue who has been called up so far, great.

But those are 2 different things.

[MAC331]

20 hours ago, cross16 said:

Problem I have with calling up kids is pretty much all of them are jut finding their grove in the A. IMO one of the most dangerous things you can do with a prospect I get him into the game of Yo Yo between the A and the NHL. I think that is what really harm their development because they can never really work on getting better. Need to think long term, not short term. 

 

I think bennett was actually playing pretty well as a centre and the small details in his game we're improving. However I understand the desire to get him going offensively by putting him in better situations to do so. He'll be back at centre soon and IMO will still be a centre at the NHL level. 

I would expect he will be back at C when Gaudreau can return, best option to fill in on the top line for now.

[Cowtownguy]

I first posted this in the Tkachuk thread and realized it was contributing to drift. People were suggesting the possibility of trading Bennett. My response was:

 

"I think that we need to show more patience with Bennett. Backlund took years to turn things around, and a number of players struggled earlier this year. Bennett can improve as well. If we are going to take a chance on Lazar, it seems to me that we should be patient with Bennett. Is he not our highest pick? Having said that, GMs need to entertain almost any possibility to improve their teams."

[robrob74]

18 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I first posted this in the Tkachuk thread and realized it was contributing to drift. People were suggesting the possibility of trading Bennett. My response was:

 

"I think that we need to show more patience with Bennett. Backlund took years to turn things around, and a number of players struggled earlier this year. Bennett can improve as well. If we are going to take a chance on Lazar, it seems to me that we should be patient with Bennett. Is he not our highest pick? Having said that, GMs need to entertain almost any possibility to improve their teams."

 

I agree! 

The skill is there, the desire is there, and it's just putting it together. This is essentially his first year playing C. Weren't his points on par with last year when he played wing and his struggle to produce only started as a C? 

 

I think we would make a big mistake trading him. Plus if it allows us to keep Backlund for a few a years while Bennett develops into a #2C or higher winger, then by the time he develops, he could be primed for a Cup team. 

 

Plus, I think his type of game is geared to playoff hockey. He can be a bulldog and goes after it when it's there. Personally, I think his game is a winger type, but I am willing to keep him at C. We have to stop trading him off just because he is developing, and not on par with Monahan's 2nd year totals. Who has Bennett played with that resembles the skill that Monahan has played with?

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I first posted this in the Tkachuk thread and realized it was contributing to drift. People were suggesting the possibility of trading Bennett. My response was:

 

"I think that we need to show more patience with Bennett. Backlund took years to turn things around, and a number of players struggled earlier this year. Bennett can improve as well. If we are going to take a chance on Lazar, it seems to me that we should be patient with Bennett. Is he not our highest pick? Having said that, GMs need to entertain almost any possibility to improve their teams."

 

Anyone can be traded.  It just depends on the return.  Everyone has a price.  

 

Ristolainen?  Werenski?  Hanifin?  There is a price where we have to take the deal on Bennett.  It's safe to say at this point, Bennett is not in the same class as Matthews, Eichel, and Laine.  But if someone is willing to give the value of those 3 in exchange for Bennett, then we win the deal hands down.

 

For example, if Columbus comes knocking with Seth Jones for Bennett straight up, then I'll go over to his apartment to pack his bags for him while you help us call Uber to the airport to send him off.

[jjgallow]

On 2016-11-19 at 2:02 PM, cross16 said:

Problem I have with calling up kids is pretty much all of them are jut finding their grove in the A. IMO one of the most dangerous things you can do with a prospect I get him into the game of Yo Yo between the A and the NHL. I think that is what really harm their development because they can never really work on getting better. Need to think long term, not short term. 

 

Exactly.  So true.    It's like we do this:

 

Bennett is thrust into the NHL too early after  a major injury:   "He's earned it, we HAD to play him in the NHL his first year back"

 

                   Instead of:  "The AHL or Even Junior would be better for his development, regardless of what we think he's earned"

 

So....to me that was obvious, and should have been an obvious learning.  And something we repeat all too often.

 

But no.  

 

We have a solution:   "Bring up more kids who are developing nicely in the AHL, before they are ready.   Stop that development too"

 

Sigh.

 

On 2016-11-19 at 2:02 PM, cross16 said:

 

I think bennett was actually playing pretty well as a centre and the small details in his game we're improving. However I understand the desire to get him going offensively by putting him in better situations to do so. He'll be back at centre soon and IMO will still be a centre at the NHL level. 

 

If there is Anything to be learned form this at all, it's that some form of consistency is needed.    He's not a winger, not much point in developing him as one.    I also thought he was playing well at center.    If we could go back I sure wish he had another year of junior (or if they could get him in the AHL even better).    But now that he's here, the least we could do is develop him in his actual position that made him a top pick.

 

It's like if we drafted a goalie, and they struggled, so we played them on the wing instead to "get them going".  No.

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Exactly.  So true.    It's like we do this:

 

Bennett is thrust into the NHL too early after  a major injury:   "He's earned it, we HAD to play him in the NHL his first year back"

 

                   Instead of:  "The AHL or Even Junior would be better for his development, regardless of what we think he's earned"

 

So....to me that was obvious, and should have been an obvious learning.  And something we repeat all too often.

 

But no.  

 

We have a solution:   "Bring up more kids who are developing nicely in the AHL, before they are ready.   Stop that development too"

 

Sigh.

 

 

If there is Anything to be learned form this at all, it's that some form of consistency is needed.    He's not a winger, not much point in developing him as one.    I also thought he was playing well at center.    If we could go back I sure wish he had another year of junior (or if they could get him in the AHL even better).    But now that he's here, the least we could do is develop him in his actual position that made him a top pick.

 

It's like if we drafted a goalie, and they struggled, so we played them on the wing instead to "get them going".  No.

Your example isn't the same thing at all. Bennett would not be the first Junior C moved out to play wing in the NHL. I think we need to back up a few seasons to where the likely thinking was Bennett would fast replace the need to keep Backlund or Stajan past their contracts. Now all the chatter because of his great play is we should be keeping Backlund and paying him. If the decision is to extend Backlund we also buy more time for players such as Tkachuk, Bennett, Lazar and Jankowski to not have to assume more responsible time on the ice. Such a decision also creates the possible excess of Cs for our top 9 from a talent standpoint eventually, this would be why I would consider moving Bennett to LW in the process.

Let's say for the sake of solid development GG leaves Tkachuk with Backlund and Frolik next season and Ferland proves to be the answer for JG and SM. Why not experiment with a line of Bennett LW, Jankowski C, Lazar RW ? I for one would love to see what such a line could do.

[DHT]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Why not experiment with a line of Bennett LW, Jankowski C, Lazar RW ? I for one would love to see what such a line could do.

I think this line could be pretty effective Flames 3rd line for next year if we would keep the current 1st and 2nd intact. Got some really good sizes to plow through the oppositions.

[cross16]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Exactly.  So true.    It's like we do this:

 

Bennett is thrust into the NHL too early after  a major injury:   "He's earned it, we HAD to play him in the NHL his first year back"

 

                   Instead of:  "The AHL or Even Junior would be better for his development, regardless of what we think he's earned"

 

So....to me that was obvious, and should have been an obvious learning.  And something we repeat all too often.

 

But no.  

 

We have a solution:   "Bring up more kids who are developing nicely in the AHL, before they are ready.   Stop that development too"

 

Sigh.

 

 

If there is Anything to be learned form this at all, it's that some form of consistency is needed.    He's not a winger, not much point in developing him as one.    I also thought he was playing well at center.    If we could go back I sure wish he had another year of junior (or if they could get him in the AHL even better).    But now that he's here, the least we could do is develop him in his actual position that made him a top pick.

 

It's like if we drafted a goalie, and they struggled, so we played them on the wing instead to "get them going".  No.

 

he couldn't go to the AHL until this season due to age so last year it was either junior or Pro and IMO the Flames made the right call. There is no map or generic process for development you have to treat everyone differently. IMO, Bennett was done with the junior game and you could tell in how he played. I think part of the reason he is taking a bit longer is he had a ton of bad junior habits, which is pretty common for a player with his skill level so I think playing another season of junior actually woudl have hurt him, not helped him. His skill level was beyond the challenge of a junior game. Plus I happen to believe he had a good season last year. 

 

But yes I do think Hartley should have put him at center earlier last year especially when the Flames were out of it. I don't mind sheltering a player early on to get his feet wet but it didn't make sense to me why Hartley even towards the end of the season still didn't want to use Bennett at center. I'm happy that this year, sink or swim, Gulutzan has committed to Bennett being a center and allowing him to work through the ups and downs that comes with that position. 

[Flyerfan52]

With Sam it was probably wrong burning a year of his ELC for 1 game & the playoffs after his season consisted of just a handful of regular seaso games & a couple in the OHL playoffs following his shoulder surgery. He did well in those few junior games but the OHL is not the big leagues. Maybe the Flames thought showing the confidence to use him in the playoffs would compensate for a lost year as he healed.

Unfortunately after that a return to junior for his last eligible year would erode his confidence so they gave him a limited role @ wing as there were other centers they trusted more. His less than spectacular game & #s kept him playing depth rather than assume the starring role we hoped for. To me working with Gary Roberts would restore what I see as weakened confidence. If he did this & started showing himself to be closer to what we thought we were getting I think it would help him a lot. I just wonder if he's ready to commit to what Roberts demands.

 

Earlier in this or another thread I mentioned Scheifele. I'll use the Jets again to prove there is no cookie cutter method to develop players.

Like Tkachuk both Matthews & Laine are making an impact @ NHL level while fellow draftees are in junior or the minors. What they do with that experience will determine who was the real best player in the 2016 draft.

That brings me to Josh Morrissey. 13th OA pick in 2013 he was returned to junior for a final year & spent the next in the AHL. Finally becoming a NHL regular a few years after  others from his draft had he quickly turned into a top 4 D averaging 19 minutes along side Buff or Trouba. I'd now rate him higher that Nurse & Morin who heard their names called earlier.

 

So 3 cases by the same team.

1) Scheifele developing with extra junior play & his own drive to be the best.

2) Morrissey being allowed to grow (physically & maturity wise) in juniors followed by an initiation to grown men who make a living from hockey.

3) Laine who @ 18 was ready to play in the best league in the world.

 

With the Flames we've been lucky with Gaudreau, Monahan & Tkachuk fitting in early. Bennett would have probably been better served with more time before the big show.

 

Typically I'm of the mindset to let the kids grow before throwing them in this level of competition but over the past few years I'm seeing levels of skill that belie the need. These newer generations have been pros in every way but financially for years leading to the draft (agents, specialized coaching, die, etc.). They bear little resemblance to the previous generations where hockey was a winter sport & the off season was for playing baseball or something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

he couldn't go to the AHL until this season due to age so last year it was either junior or Pro and IMO the Flames made the right call. There is no map or generic process for development you have to treat everyone differently. IMO, Bennett was done with the junior game and you could tell in how he played. I think part of the reason he is taking a bit longer is he had a ton of bad junior habits, which is pretty common for a player with his skill level so I think playing another season of junior actually woudl have hurt him, not helped him. His skill level was beyond the challenge of a junior game. Plus I happen to believe he had a good season last year. 

 

But yes I do think Hartley should have put him at center earlier last year especially when the Flames were out of it. I don't mind sheltering a player early on to get his feet wet but it didn't make sense to me why Hartley even towards the end of the season still didn't want to use Bennett at center. I'm happy that this year, sink or swim, Gulutzan has committed to Bennett being a center and allowing him to work through the ups and downs that comes with that position. 

 

I tend to agree with your comments.  Why he spent any time at all playing wing with Granlund as the center is beyond me. Granlund was the most inferior of centers we had.

 

[The_People1]

What makes it tough to accept Sam Bennett's performance so far is the fact that both Draisaitl and Reinhart are trending well and improving year over year.  Bennett was supposedly a steal at 4th overall.  

 

Couple that with better performance coming out of later draftees like Ehlers, Nylander, Larkin, and Pastrnak, I feel like Bennett has no excuse.  He should have 20 goals right now and at least 40 points.

 

What's most scary is that even the scoring chances that were there for him in the first two months of the season aren't there for him anymore now.  We didn't worry as much back then because he was at least getting chances.

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

What makes it tough to accept Sam Bennett's performance so far is the fact that both Draisaitl and Reinhart are trending well and improving year over year.  Bennett was supposedly a steal at 4th overall.  

 

Couple that with better performance coming out of later draftees like Ehlers, Nylander, Larkin, and Pastrnak, I feel like Bennett has no excuse.  He should have 20 goals right now and at least 40 points.

 

What's most scary is that even the scoring chances that were there for him in the first two months of the season aren't there for him anymore now.  We didn't worry as much back then because he was at least getting chances.

So slower developing means trade him in your world ? I think you are failing to take into account the revolving door of line mates and plus being shifted around to other positions himself. I think he has played very well of late.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

What makes it tough to accept Sam Bennett's performance so far is the fact that both Draisaitl and Reinhart are trending well and improving year over year.  Bennett was supposedly a steal at 4th overall.  

 

Couple that with better performance coming out of later draftees like Ehlers, Nylander, Larkin, and Pastrnak, I feel like Bennett has no excuse.  He should have 20 goals right now and at least 40 points.

 

What's most scary is that even the scoring chances that were there for him in the first two months of the season aren't there for him anymore now.  We didn't worry as much back then because he was at least getting chances.

 

Draisaitl has an addition year of development under him.  Played 1/2 a year in the NHL and a 1/2 a year in junior.  His first year in the NHL was putrid.  Last year and this year, Draisaitl played with top 6 players.  A lot of time spent on the wing.  Compare that to Bennett, who played on a wing with Granlund for part of the year and Backlund for the rest.  This year is his real first time playing a NHL center position.   And his linemates have been (currently) 4th line players, Gaudreau when he was struggling, and now two RHS.  I like Versteeg, but he isn't set up to pass on LW.  He is set up for curling at the blueline or a one-timer.  

[Flyerfan52]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

What makes it tough to accept Sam Bennett's performance so far is the fact that both Draisaitl and Reinhart are trending well and improving year over year.  Bennett was supposedly a steal at 4th overall.  

 

Couple that with better performance coming out of later draftees like Ehlers, Nylander, Larkin, and Pastrnak, I feel like Bennett has no excuse.  He should have 20 goals right now and at least 40 points.

 

What's most scary is that even the scoring chances that were there for him in the first two months of the season aren't there for him anymore now.  We didn't worry as much back then because he was at least getting chances.

Again I'll use the Scheifele example. He was  still playing junior 2 years after many taken before or after him were in the big league. In his 1st 2 years in the NHL he wasn't what you call remarkable (except those who'd been puzzled the Jets took him that early saying he was a wasted pick & they'd told us so) . That changed when all his training, specialized workouts & sheer determination came together. Many now consider him 1 of the top young centers in the league without the major hype of a McDavid or Matthews & He's tied for 3rd among centers & 6th in overall scoring.

 

I haven't given up on Sam because he wasn't that immediate top end player. Much of the predraft hype & comparisons to players is based on what the talking heads project him to be. I hope he's quietly following in the shoes of players like Scheifele.

When Monahan was 1st drafted he spoke of spending his spare time watching film of the highly regarded centers in the game to learn & adopt some of what worked for them. He specifically mentioned face-offs & wins 52.9% so he obviously concentrates of those. I hope that itch to be the best & willingness to work for it continues.