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Now What We Have No Offence And No Defence Is It All Down Hill From Here ?


zima

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Looks like throwing feaster to the wolves has now back fired on Burk who is he going to blame now probably coaching it would be my suggestion we dump burk before he kills this team. I know this was not his ship but throwing ppl under the bus is going to be his next move then what with no out put or defence who is going to want our players. If some one does happen to want players like cammi and hud they are going to want us to give them 2 for 1 of there marginal players . So what is our chances of getting any players to even want to play here. Go ahead fire away.  

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How did Burke throw Feaster to the wolves?  Cleaning out management is typically the first move of any new executive.  Feaster was never thrown to the wolves (that implies that someone is left out on his own to answer for something, which didn't happen here).

 

How do you figure Burke's next move is to throw someone under the bus?

 

I understand your frustration, which (I assume) is where your post/rant is coming from, and I certainly share it.  But I don't blame the current slump of the players on anyone above the coaching staff.  Everyone on or behind the bench is responsible for what is happening now, and also responsible for fixing it.

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Feaster, by his admission, came on with the expectation of making the Flames a playoff team. He failed. Even if you ignore everything else Feaster failed to accomplish what he said he would accomplish.

Blaming Burke for the loses when he has done almost nothing to this point is ludicrous.

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How is this even remotely on burke?

He gave Hartley full control over the lineup..callups..demotions..etc.

We have legitimate 20 goal scorers on this team. Stempniak. .cammy. .hudler. .Stajan. . None are scoring.

Im sorry..I am one of his biggest supporters but Hartley is losing this team. The onus is on him to change the system.to motivate the players.

Fact is we surprised teams the first 20 games. But the cats out of the bag now..you play calgary you need to work or they make you pay. Teams come to play us hard now..so need to adapt the game plan.

As much as I agree Sven needs to improve but fact is Monahan played better with him.bring him back

Burke promised the coaches their jobs are safe til year end and even then I believe they should be allowed to play out of this slump but fact is he's not helping his year end report card.

But to summarize .this has absolutely nothing to do with Burke and everything to do with Hartley and the coaches

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Well zima, I can appreciate the frustration.

All that we're seeing now though, is how much is wrong with the team.

Feaster was left with a mess to clean up from Sutter, and he cleaned it up.

In the process we became small with a bit more skill. His vision beyond that appears very limited as the team is more a hodgepodge of random players without an acute sense of role. Cervenka, Hudler, Wideman...he didn't seem to get them for a specific purpose outside of he could get them. David Jones for Tanguay also.

Feaster seemed to get players and worry about how they fit later.

Ken King was obvious very nervous as, by all accounts, he pursued Burke aggressively.

The writing was on the wall. King's a lot of things, but dumb certainly isn't one of them.

So let's turn this conversation around and look at it another way.

We don't hire Burke, Feaster is the GM. This is still the team we have.

Now what?

It's dirty hands time, and that's Burke. It definitely isn't Feaster.

Baertschi would still be here for Feaster. Burke, no.

He did the same to the Getzlaf/Perry combo in Anaheim.

Burke has a handle on most every player, and how he'd slot them and what each player has to address.

We definitely need that, and that most definitely is something Feaster showed no signs of accommodating.

Many like to hyperbolize Burke's big moves and scrutinize them to death.

But you also have to account for shedding Stajan and Hagman for Phaneuf. I'm a Phaneuf detractor, but still it's shrewd to take on $7mil in Phaneuf over a potential future combined $6-7mil for Stajan and Hagman.

Clarke MacArthur and Joffrey Lupul should stand up also. Burke virtually gave

both of these faders at the time bonafide $5mil per careers for giving them the chances to best succeed.

Both were on the periphary of even being NHLers.

Begs the question, what might he find us that we all shrug at, at first?

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We are not expected to be fighting for the conference title or a play-off spot, but one goal on 121 shots in the last 5 games at home will send shock-waves through the ownership group. I cannot remember ever not expecting us to score before a game even begins and this is not a mindset they can allow the fans to become entrenched in. We could see a big shake up very soon. Burke is not going anywhere but unless they really see Hartley as the coach on a long-term basis, his job could be seriously under immediate threat with another blank against Pittsburgh. 

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It's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

But we all knew that.  We will trade away Cammalleri, Stajan, and Stempniak almost for sure.  There will be even less offense and defense than we already have.  It's going to happen but again, we all knew that.  We all knew coming into this season, the Flames are icing one of the worst rosters in the entire NHL.

 

So to coming into the season knowing all that, suddenly it's Brian Burke's fault?  Get serious man. 

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We were pencilled into first overall pick at the beginning of the year and surprised a lot of people with our ability to compete consistently up until Christmas. But I believe a goal drought of this severity will have unsettled people at the top level and could trigger changes unless things liven up, fast. Burke's head will be well clear of the chopping block and I am sure it won't be too long til he's swinging the axe. Could be a big trade, but I can't see too much on the cards at the moment. A coaching change is one thing guaranteed to really shake things up and I do not think Hartley is viewed as the long-term solution (just a personal view, nothing to back this up). One thing that may prevent this move is that Burke may already have a name or names in mind which will be more available in the summer. 

 

I would personally like to see them wait for the inevitable end to a wretched run. We're not a very good team and confidence is low but we are creating opportunities and goals will come. I think being forced into a move with long-term consequences by a short-term issue can only hurt the club, but I think the powers that be will be getting twitchy.

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Burke isn't going anywhere. Period.

 

Jay was the guy they could get for the interim, Burke was the guy they wanted all along. No, I have no proof or links, but just my opinion.

 

We are in a scoring slump, big deal. It's rebuild time. Crap happens.

 

I knew this year was going to be hard to watch, but to my surprise, I love the tenacity this team shows every or almost every single night.

 

We forget too easily the country club days that we had to watch the last few years. This team, while lacking talent, does not lack heart.

 

I will take heart and a hope for a better future any day of the week.

 

Besides... it's always fun to think of what will happen next! Kind of like looking at the presents under the tree, wondering what you will get. Cheer up fellow fans, we may suck right now but we won't suck forever!  :)

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Perhaps your all right about feaster I thought that firing him so close to Christmas was a crappy thing to do to any one I guess there thougt was he would have a better chance of finding a new team. I don't know just thought it was sad just my thought, I also thought he was doing not bad a couple of crappy picks as far as Jankowski goes thought there were way better out there and this yr he could have better pick in the higher picks first round and done alot better in the third but Kanzig is a monster hopefully he turns out ok in the third it is usualy a crap shoot any way. As far as throwing ppl under the bus I don't think any coach could do any better with what he has to work with so thumping out the door to me would be throwing some one under the bus just to bring in some one he thinks would be better. Just my opinion. 

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i think Hartley is safe til year end, if only because Burke made a point of publicly announcing that . Unless things really go aouth and there is no option left to Burke but to can him. He'll get his GM hired and let them decide.

On the flip side, to be honest I think Hartley is quickly digging himself an off season grave.

 

I agree with the above as well, i think Cammy goes first and will likely happen by end of month 

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Geez, if the people at the top are unsettled, then I don't know why they are surprised with the current state of the team. The ownership asked Burke to write a report with his recommendations and they proceeded to fire Feaster. Burke and Feaster have a different approach to building championship teams, but having both won the Stanley Cup each has proven his style effective - truculent players or not.

 

It stands to reason that the guys who were brought in under Feaster are all on the chopping block. Different vision. Different set of guys from the General Manager to coaching staff and down on to the players. Wholesale line change.

 

Then you get Burke telling the press that this team doesn't have what it takes. They're not enough this. They're not enough that. Hey, up until then, that team was in each game and even when they lost, the games were exciting to watch. Now you're left with a team that was build under Feaster. They were playing to prove to Feaster that he was on the right path. Exit Feaster. Heart extinguished.

 

In my opinion, the ownership got what it asked for - change. When Burke submitted his report, the owners could have said, "Well, Feaster has this coaching staff and these players. With a few key moves, we'll be 3-5 years from making a decent run in the playoffs. Let's dump Burke and find someone else who shares Feaster's vision." Did the ownership do that? Nope. So, the fans get to watch more changes from the top-down. Not to address a few missing pieces, but building from the chasm whence we find ourselves splayed unseeingly. For truly, there are only two pieces in place in Burke's vision - himself and Westgarth.

 

It's funny. At the beginning of the season, Hartley and Feaster were taking about the team. Everyone has to buy into the team mentality. They forgot to include Burke, King, and the ownership in their pep talks. Those guys certainly didn't buy into their team.

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In my opinion, the ownership got what it asked for - change. When Burke submitted his report, the owners could have said, "Well, Feaster has this coaching staff and these players. With a few key moves, we'll be 3-5 years from making a decent run in the playoffs. Let's dump Burke and find someone else who shares Feaster's vision." Did the ownership do that? Nope. So, the fans get to watch more changes from the top-down. Not to address a few missing pieces, but building from the chasm whence we find ourselves splayed unseeingly. For truly, there are only two pieces in place in Burke's vision - himself and Westgarth.

 

Ownership *did* make a decision.  They saw that the last 5 years of minimal-at-best trades (Dutter AND Feaster) did nothing to improve the team, so they decided to go with Burke's plan.  If ownership didn't think along the same lines as Burke currently does, do you honestly believe that he would be here in the first place?

 

Westgarth isn't "the fix" for this team.  Never will be.  Burke never suggested he was.  Time to stop picking on a small "meh" move as a representation of what Burke wants to this team to grow into.  Just because Burke *wants* to get bigger, stronger, and tougher to play against, doesn't mean that the 29 other teams are going to make life easy for him, take pity on him, or help him in any way.  If Burke's history is anything to pay attention to (and it should be), we should all take solace in knowing that although he's an extremely colourful, opinionated man, he gets results....it just takes time and patience.

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Geez, if the people at the top are unsettled, then I don't know why they are surprised with the current state of the team. The ownership asked Burke to write a report with his recommendations and they proceeded to fire Feaster. Burke and Feaster have a different approach to building championship teams, but having both won the Stanley Cup each has proven his style effective - truculent players or not.

 

It stands to reason that the guys who were brought in under Feaster are all on the chopping block. Different vision. Different set of guys from the General Manager to coaching staff and down on to the players. Wholesale line change.

 

Then you get Burke telling the press that this team doesn't have what it takes. They're not enough this. They're not enough that. Hey, up until then, that team was in each game and even when they lost, the games were exciting to watch. Now you're left with a team that was build under Feaster. They were playing to prove to Feaster that he was on the right path. Exit Feaster. Heart extinguished.

 

In my opinion, the ownership got what it asked for - change. When Burke submitted his report, the owners could have said, "Well, Feaster has this coaching staff and these players. With a few key moves, we'll be 3-5 years from making a decent run in the playoffs. Let's dump Burke and find someone else who shares Feaster's vision." Did the ownership do that? Nope. So, the fans get to watch more changes from the top-down. Not to address a few missing pieces, but building from the chasm whence we find ourselves splayed unseeingly. For truly, there are only two pieces in place in Burke's vision - himself and Westgarth.

 

It's funny. At the beginning of the season, Hartley and Feaster were taking about the team. Everyone has to buy into the team mentality. They forgot to include Burke, King, and the ownership in their pep talks. Those guys certainly didn't buy into their team.

wow...

 

first .. it wasnt Kings decision , it was Brian doing what he was paid to do. He was brought in to keep King away from this team, and let a hockey guy run it . im sure big moves need to be advised upwards, but dont kid Yourself. This has been Burkes team to manage from day one

second.. even if we were "3 or 4 moves away"..bottom line is we didnt want Jay making those moves

 

this team was already begnning to spiral under Jay.. we were blowing leads, left and right . Its obvious it was Feaster who kept Sven up on the big club , because the same day Feaster was fired, and Burke gave the coaches Autonomy, HARTLEY put Sven on the next plane to Abbotsford

This was one little move.. just one , and people seem to think its the face of things to come. Just wait til the big ones hit, some people are gonna have strokes on here.

If youre gonna judge burke on his first trade, then you should judge Feaster on Fredrick Modin..

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Not sure where all this BB disappointment & hate is coming from. A proper rebuild takes years not the "only a few months" he has been here. 

 

Feaster said long ago that if the Flames wanted to go the rebuild route then he was not the guy. Tearing the team down, getting the team in a good position to rebuild is not rebuilding.

 

BB was hired as the guy with experience in rebuilds and set a proper direction for a team. You only need to look at how long Cliff Fletcher looked for a suitable candidate in TO to do their rebuild and finally getting BB, to realize that qualified people do not grow on trees. Love BB or hate him he is competent and his history over 3 teams shows that.

 

So the Feaster removal is not throwing him under the bus per say. The timing was poor but would you rather  he wait and do it at New years when he was busy with the American Olympic team? why wait and sit on that type of thing with the possibility of that getting out?

 

Whoever the new GM is, will likely want his own coach and staff in place to follow that plan for going forward. It may include Hartley but not likely. That won't be throwing Hartley under the bus either if it happens. Hartley and his present staff will be judged on his full seasons record not the first half of this season. I don't see him being replaced before the end of this season at the earliest.

 

What is not to like about rebuilding around high draft picks. As long as the Flames surround the prospects that do play up here with some decent vets then we will develop them faster than the similar model displayed up north of us. I can see us with a couple of years of top 3 picks before the best prospects start to trickle into the lineup. 

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Ownership *did* make a decision.

first .. it wasnt Kings decision.

I believe a goal drought of this severity will have unsettled people at the top level and could trigger changes.

 

If you want to see where the wind blows in terms of the Calgary Flames, then look at the ownership who relies on King who brought in Burke. Trickle down effect, mateys. All these men are the unsettled people at the top level.

 

Whether it's Burke or Feaster (definitely not Feaster), the final call will always rest on the owners not the President of Hockey Operations, not the GM, or the coaches. Do you know why Sutter was ineffective? Because he was handcuffed by the owners. The owners wanted change, but only within certain parameters. You're the GM, but you can't trade certain players and you can only offer this much for that guy. Do you ever wonder why there was a revolving door with the same people coming in and out? Bye, Jokinen. Hi, Jokinen. Hi, Cammelleri. Bye, Cammelleri. Hi, Cammelleri. I'm putting you on notice, Cammelleri. Feaster inherited the revolving door from Sutter. If only the ownership were like Mark Cuban, then they could share their vision with the press while working out on a treadmill.

 

This ownership group needs to get it together. Stay the course. No holds barred. If they've decided to go with Burke, then give him what he needs to make this team work. It will be next to an impossible task as (to paraphrase Kulstad) we should not expect the other 29 teams to make it easy for him. So then, yes, one trade does not a rebuild make. But if that's the first step, then we have a long, long, long, long way to go. Rebuild to teardown. And all this time, we've been talking about rebuilding from the bottom-up. It starts with Burke who was brought in by King who is relied on by the ownership.....

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I believe a goal drought of this severity will have unsettled people at the top level and could trigger changes.

 

This ownership group needs to get it together. Stay the course. No holds barred......

 

The only question owernship should be asking is, "who will score goals for us in 2015-16?".  I mean this season is a wash from the very beginning so "the course" should be able to withstand any type of severe goal drought.  At the end of the day, all moves should be for the future and not for the present.

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My biggest fear is they going to move cammi hud and get nothing in return we need to stands pat I don't mind picking around 1-4th over all it is sad we have been shut out 5 times already I was looking for more of a reasonable goals for and against per game I thought we would get blowen out here and there but shutouts were something that I didn't for see not at this rate. I hope we stay where we are and use our picks keep what we have. We will need the vets for our future and they are good players no doubt about that.

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My biggest fear is they going to move cammi hud and get nothing in return we need to stands pat I don't mind picking around 1-4th over all it is sad we have been shut out 5 times already I was looking for more of a reasonable goals for and against per game I thought we would get blowen out here and there but shutouts were something that I didn't for see not at this rate. I hope we stay where we are and use our picks keep what we have. We will need the vets for our future and they are good players no doubt about that.

 

See, I really don't have that fear with BB in the seat right now.  I always had that fear with each and every Feaster 'announcement'.  Burke will get what they are worth, minimum.  If he can swing a fleecing, then even better.

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See, I really don't have that fear with BB in the seat right now.  I always had that fear with each and every Feaster 'announcement'.  Burke will get what they are worth, minimum.  If he can swing a fleecing, then even better.

 

I am confident Burke will get value in trade.  I am not confident he will trade for the types of players that we need though.  The jury is out on that one.  

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I am confident Burke will get value in trade.  I am not confident he will trade for the types of players that we need though.  The jury is out on that one.  

 

I trust a guy who's been in the biz for over 20 years to know what this team needs.  Feaster...not so much.  Most of us fans think we know, but it's mostly what types of players we would like to see rather than what types of players this team actually needs.

 

But to point out the elephant in the room, this team needs a lot, so we'll start there and let Burke do his thing.

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I trust a guy who's been in the biz for over 20 years to know what this team needs. Feaster...not so much. Most of us fans think we know, but it's mostly what types of players we would like to see rather than what types of players this team actually needs.

But to point out the elephant in the room, this team needs a lot, so we'll start there and let Burke do his thing.

My fear with Burke is that he lacks the patience to do this properly. Despite his rush in Toronto it still took a long time and the team is a fringe playoff team rather than a contender.

But I agree that we should be more confident with Burke than Feaster.

Back to topic, I wonder if we see a small improvement when the vets are traded and kids come on board similar to last season. Stajan and Stempniak aren't playing well and Cammalleri has been mediocre 5 on 5 and our PP socks anyway.

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I think that S4xon both hit the nail on the head and missed the boat at the same time, possibly to save time and typing.

 

The difference between need and want when it comes to players is hitting the nail on the head. The issue is what the team needs to be successful. What the fans want to see is not necessarily the best thing for the team which is also dead on. The team needing a lot of changes, also dead on.

 

The part where the boat was missed is explaining the WHY of the situation in which the Flames currently sit. To do this we need to look at the team over the past few years with respect to players, moves and trades. It is the need to look at exactly what the team needed, what they needed and how they moved pieces to address the issues. We can look at this team in exactly the same way.

 

Calgary, up until this year, had Kipper in net for nearly a decade. The Flames were able to play around with old veteran starters to backup Kipper just before they retired, or tried to showcase rookies as he backup to either grow their value or possible find the eventual successor. There was no actual plan in place at all for the eventual retirement of Kipper and so we find ourselves in our current goalie state. Even with the drafting of goalies like Ortio, Gilles and such there was no distinct plan. We know this with the acquisitions of Berra, Ramo and JMac on top of the drafted goalies. While this provides Calgary with a plethora of possibilities, none have shown that they can be THE showstopper in net. Ramo and Berra have both been serviceable to good. I would feel confident enough with either of them playing 20-30 games a season in a backup role and them being successful at it. Maybe it is that the Flames are intentionally playing them as 1a 1b that we don't see a true standout yet, but they are both showing potential. 

 

Our defence for years has been a strong point both on the big club and in the minors. The issue started to fall apart when young D were being traded because there was no room for them on the big club or they were overplayed in the minors and developed injury problems. We can all remember the hopes we had for Negrin and Pelech though neither player made the team. Had there been room for them on the big club, what might have been? With that being said, Calgary's defensive prospects quickly dried up as Dutter traded away draft picks for players he thought would fill immediate holes. Names like Hamrlik, Langkow, Tanguay and others come to mind. These players did fill holes, if not absolutely essential holes, they did improve the team overall. But we all know that the prospect pool suffered for it. In comes Feaster and the prospect pool got fixed in many respects. Reasonable drafting and some reasonable trades made the prospect pool more respectable but the team did not really improve too much. The defence is formed differently than we Flames fans have been used to seeing over the past 30 years. While we have always had the big solid, tough to play against D men who made life very hard on the opponents (Regehr type D), we no longer have that. Sure Gio throws the occasional big hit, Smid who is more D minded and we have SOB who is "truculent", but for the most part our current D is more mobile and more offensively gifted (Wideman, Brodie, Russell, Butler even Smith) but they can be seen as softer in the defensive end and not able to hold back the opponents as well. It is a different D style than we are used to. It is definitely a Feaster style D on the whole. To play with that style of D however, you need a lights out goalie and a very fast, highly offence oriented forward group. Feaster started to try and build that last season but did not go wholesale and have the result.

 

SOB, Smid and Smith do not really fit the D mould that Feaster was going for, but because we no longer had a lights out goalie, we needed to stem some of the bleeding so here are these 3 playing on the team to try and help out a little. While Smid is definitely a defensive type guy we as fans are more used to having, he did not really fit the Feaster mould. SOB is a whole other story I won't even start to discuss here. I simply do not believe that SOB is the Dman we really need but he is serviceable. 

 

As for the forwards, Dutter had a very distinct plan which was not necessarily the best choice or the most exciting, but they did win games. He occasionally added a couple flashier players to get some excitement but he was solely focus on the immediate returns and not the future. With the extreme overloading of the same style of forward, it was clear that Calgary would eventually fall like they have. Feaster did not inherit a very strong, offensive based forward group in the minors or on the big club. One line of offence and the rest built for mainly defensive purposes along with a defensive defence core simply did not bode well for a Feaster styled team.

 

Feaster was able to mainly build the D he wanted and started to try and build his forwards in the style he wanted to see. Some of it was a bust, but there was not the prospect pool to draw from and grow with, and there was simply too many leftovers from Dutter which held him back from making the wholesale change. Instead, the Flames as we see them now are a hodgepodge of players with no real identity other than they are expected to work hard for the coaches and see what happens. Feaster wanted a fast, skilled, run and gun team which is exciting to watch and scores plenty of goals. As long as this team was able to score more goals and a solid goalie could hold of too many goals against, the team would win. The big problem is Kipper was getting older and got hurt so Calgary did not have that goalie. The D was not quite there last year. The addition of Russell this year, the rise of Brodie and Wideman doing well started things but they really needed 1 more D man of that mould to make it work. The bottom 6 forwards and even some of the top 6 simply did not fit the Feaster mould. He did not have the forwards to make that style work but he was working on it. Big problem though with some of last years drafting for his style of team. Monahan is not run and gun, he is more steady and smart, getting himself in the right spots while Poirier is uber fast but has a more truculent side as well. 

 

We now need to see what the Burke / new GM's plan will be and they need to make it happen soon (before the 14/15 season). There cannot be a mishmash, hodgepodge trying to do too many things team. It needs to have a set identity. 

 

Minnesota: Big frustrating team to play against, won't destroy you with offence but don't expect to score much

Tampa Bay: Highly mobile, fast, offensive team with a good goalie

Pittsburgh: Offense first mindset.

 

Calgary needs to decide what they will be and move the pieces that need to be moved which do not fit this mould, and then bring in the players who do fit. Feaster tried to bring in draft picks and some players to fit his mould but he failed to move out the players that didn't. The new management team cannot make that mistake.

 

A fast, gritty team with some good offensive pieces is a Burke style team. They do not need to be flashy but need to be able to finish the play. Glencross, Poirier, Byron (maybe small but watching him, he plays much bigger), Monahan, Bouma, Reinhart, Ferland and maybe Colbourne are Burke type players. Guys like Westgarth and McGrattan are necessary on a Burke team. Baertschi, Granlund, Gaudreau and Hudler are pieces that Burke likes to have to add that little bit of polish to the forward lines (see the Sedins). It is unlikely that he would have 4 or 5 shiny pieces like that on the team but 1-3 is possible. The D is not at all Burke esk. Other than Giordano and Smid I do not see a lot of love for the D from Burke. They simply do not have the size, truculence and skill combination that Burke likes. SOB simply isn't mobile enough, Wideman and Russell are not truculent enough, Smith lacks the talent in either offence or defence but is serviceable in both. Brodie is still growing so is unlikely to be traded and butler simply does not fit a Burke mould unless a 5-6 D man. I think Burke is currently on the Fence in net as he has currently 6 possible options for next season currently on the team and the ability to move for others if need be. I think this is a position he will not actively seek out but would not turn down a move if one fell in his lap.

 

I know I will likely be scolded when I list names here because they are likely not available or are fan favourites on the team but looking at Burke type teams and what the Flames have, I think the likelyhood of players going out and the TYPE of player that need to be brought in for next season would be:

 

Out

Wideman

Russell

Butler

SOB

Backlund

Stempniak

Cammalleri

J.Macdonald

Street

Stajan

D. Jones

B. Jones

Galiardi

 

Promoted

Reinhart

Knight

Ferland

 

Type to be brought in

Halak? (FA)

Ott (FA)

Colburn (Phi Trade)

Nikitin (CLB FA)

Vanek (FA)

Getzlaf (type)

Benn (type)

Couture (Type or trade)

Hanzal (Type or Trade)

Mason Raymond (FA)

Purcell

Carcillo (FA)

 

I know many of these are longshots, but I do believe these are the types of players that Calgary needs and that fit the Burke mould. Some may disagree, but this is what I see as a possibility.

 

Feel free to discuss.

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