Now What We Have No Offence And No Defence Is It All Down Hill From Here ?

[MAC331]

D Sutter was a terrible GM plain and simple, never should have left the bench.

Ownership *did* make a decision.

first .. it wasnt Kings decision.

I believe a goal drought of this severity will have unsettled people at the top level and could trigger changes.

 

If you want to see where the wind blows in terms of the Calgary Flames, then look at the ownership who relies on King who brought in Burke. Trickle down effect, mateys. All these men are the unsettled people at the top level.

 

Whether it's Burke or Feaster (definitely not Feaster), the final call will always rest on the owners not the President of Hockey Operations, not the GM, or the coaches. Do you know why Sutter was ineffective? Because he was handcuffed by the owners. The owners wanted change, but only within certain parameters. You're the GM, but you can't trade certain players and you can only offer this much for that guy. Do you ever wonder why there was a revolving door with the same people coming in and out? Bye, Jokinen. Hi, Jokinen. Hi, Cammelleri. Bye, Cammelleri. Hi, Cammelleri. I'm putting you on notice, Cammelleri. Feaster inherited the revolving door from Sutter. If only the ownership were like Mark Cuban, then they could share their vision with the press while working out on a treadmill.

 

This ownership group needs to get it together. Stay the course. No holds barred. If they've decided to go with Burke, then give him what he needs to make this team work. It will be next to an impossible task as (to paraphrase Kulstad) we should not expect the other 29 teams to make it easy for him. So then, yes, one trade does not a rebuild make. But if that's the first step, then we have a long, long, long, long way to go. Rebuild to teardown. And all this time, we've been talking about rebuilding from the bottom-up. It starts with Burke who was brought in by King who is relied on by the ownership.....

[phoenix66]

Bosn's post is one of the best ive read in awhile. Ive wondered all along if the moves feaster didnt make were more of his downfall than the ones he did.

If rumors were to be believed:

Could have had Tyler Seguin for the 6th overall pick. Now,I love monahan but for tyler seguin id still make that trade today

Players like Mason Raymond, zenon konopka, and a few others I forget never even received calls from calgary when ufa. All would fit into the team we want to build

Theres a few other examples there, but Bosn is correct, we have really no set identity here, and what Feaster was trying to build didn't jive with what burke knows wins in this league.

Whats really surprising is the tampa team that got the cup from us in '04 WAS a burke style team. So everybody probsbly thought that's what his vision was here

[s4xon]

I think that S4xon both hit the nail on the head and missed the boat at the same time, possibly to save time and typing.

The part where the boat was missed is explaining the WHY of the situation in which the Flames currently sit.

 

I didn't miss the boat at all.  In fact, no one here really has if they've been paying attention.  The reasons for the roster, and the past have all been beaten to a bloody death, so much so that it's beginning to rot. 

 

Not to offend, but nothing new has been brought to light in your post.  There's lots of excellent info, but everything you've posted is a refresher on everything that's been talked about over the last 3 years.

[Flyerfan52]

Calgary, up until this year, had Kipper in net for nearly a decade.

 

Our defence for years has been a strong point both on the big club and in the minors. The issue started to fall apart when young D were being traded because there was no room for them on the big club or they were overplayed in the minors and developed injury problems.

 

SOB, Smid and Smith do not really fit the D mould that Feaster was going for, but because we no longer had a lights out goalie, we needed to stem some of the bleeding so here are these 3 playing on the team to try and help out a little. While Smid is definitely a defensive type guy we as fans are more used to having, he did not really fit the Feaster mould. SOB is a whole other story I won't even start to discuss here. I simply do not believe that SOB is the Dman we really need but he is serviceable. 

 

 

Out

Wideman

Russell

Butler

SOB

Backlund

Stempniak

Cammalleri

J.Macdonald

Street

Stajan

D. Jones

B. Jones

Galiardi

 

Promoted

Reinhart

Knight

Ferland

 

Type to be brought in

Halak? (FA)

Ott (FA)

Colburn (Phi Trade)

Nikitin (CLB FA)

Vanek (FA)

Getzlaf (type)

Benn (type)

Couture (Type or trade)

Hanzal (Type or Trade)

Mason Raymond (FA)

Purcell

Carcillo (FA)

I'll cherry pick rather then quote the whole post.

 

The loss of Kipper was huge. To give any of our hopefuls a chance we need an improved D.

 

It's unlikely Coburn is moved as he's the best of the Flyers defense. Grossman is 1 that I can see moved (if Calgary isn't on his limited NTC). 28, defensive defensman in the vein of Regehr, 3.5 until 2015-16.

In return I figure 2 rentals in Stempniak & Butler & a 3rd or decent prospect.

 

Of your adds list I'll go with the 1 UFA that I figure will hit FA & be attainable in Carcillo. That F-ing pest is more skilled then most give him credit for.

Or trade Detroit a meaningless 7th rounder for Tootoo (he's buried in the minors & costs 1.9 against the cap) & a 5th. The guy can still play & the hit expires after 2014-15.

[Carty]

I agree that we should be more confident with Burke than Feaster.

 

I agree with that as well...

 

While Burke is not without some faults, he is a major upgrade over Feaster...

 

I just wish that Burke had joined the Flames organization earlier, particularly prior to Iggy and JBo being traded, as I have no doubt in my mind that Burke would have ensured a better return on both...

[Carty]

Of your adds list I'll go with the 1 UFA that I figure will hit FA & be attainable in Carcillo. That F-ing pest is more skilled then most give him credit for.

 

Car-bomb's skill does tend to be underrated by many, and he is exactly the kind of pest that the Flames could use to help some of the Flames younger players find time and space on the ice...   He tends to get under the oppositions skin and draw attention away from where the play is going...

 

I would not mind seeing him join the Flames at all if he signed a reasonable deal...

[robrob1974]

I agree with that as well...

 

While Burke is not without some faults, he is a major upgrade over Feaster...

 

I just wish that Burke had joined the Flames organization earlier, particularly prior to Iggy and JBo being traded, as I have no doubt in my mind that Burke would have ensured a better return on both...

 

I think the writing was on the wall when Feaster traded Regehr. Even though he was on the decline, I thought the Flames could get just a bit more out of him. 

[MAC331]

First off let me say that not every player has to be truculent or big to be on Burke's teams. they do have to be good players that come to play every night and not be soft around the ice. The game has also changed since Burke built some of these previous teams. You need good puck movers on your D like Wideman, Giordano and Brodie but you need to pair them with solid nasty guard our end types so these guys can play their game. These 3 together with Smid are the ones I would be keeping for next year.

 

Most of our current forwards could be on the move but my keepers would be Baertschi, Monahan, D.Jones, Colburne, Glencross, Stempniak and Bouma. Westgarth likely stays around.

 

After the trade deadline wheeling and dealing is done I think the auditions begins from the farm to see what we have for 2014-15 team building plans.

I think that S4xon both hit the nail on the head and missed the boat at the same time, possibly to save time and typing.

 

The difference between need and want when it comes to players is hitting the nail on the head. The issue is what the team needs to be successful. What the fans want to see is not necessarily the best thing for the team which is also dead on. The team needing a lot of changes, also dead on.

 

The part where the boat was missed is explaining the WHY of the situation in which the Flames currently sit. To do this we need to look at the team over the past few years with respect to players, moves and trades. It is the need to look at exactly what the team needed, what they needed and how they moved pieces to address the issues. We can look at this team in exactly the same way.

 

Calgary, up until this year, had Kipper in net for nearly a decade. The Flames were able to play around with old veteran starters to backup Kipper just before they retired, or tried to showcase rookies as he backup to either grow their value or possible find the eventual successor. There was no actual plan in place at all for the eventual retirement of Kipper and so we find ourselves in our current goalie state. Even with the drafting of goalies like Ortio, Gilles and such there was no distinct plan. We know this with the acquisitions of Berra, Ramo and JMac on top of the drafted goalies. While this provides Calgary with a plethora of possibilities, none have shown that they can be THE showstopper in net. Ramo and Berra have both been serviceable to good. I would feel confident enough with either of them playing 20-30 games a season in a backup role and them being successful at it. Maybe it is that the Flames are intentionally playing them as 1a 1b that we don't see a true standout yet, but they are both showing potential. 

 

Our defence for years has been a strong point both on the big club and in the minors. The issue started to fall apart when young D were being traded because there was no room for them on the big club or they were overplayed in the minors and developed injury problems. We can all remember the hopes we had for Negrin and Pelech though neither player made the team. Had there been room for them on the big club, what might have been? With that being said, Calgary's defensive prospects quickly dried up as Dutter traded away draft picks for players he thought would fill immediate holes. Names like Hamrlik, Langkow, Tanguay and others come to mind. These players did fill holes, if not absolutely essential holes, they did improve the team overall. But we all know that the prospect pool suffered for it. In comes Feaster and the prospect pool got fixed in many respects. Reasonable drafting and some reasonable trades made the prospect pool more respectable but the team did not really improve too much. The defence is formed differently than we Flames fans have been used to seeing over the past 30 years. While we have always had the big solid, tough to play against D men who made life very hard on the opponents (Regehr type D), we no longer have that. Sure Gio throws the occasional big hit, Smid who is more D minded and we have SOB who is "truculent", but for the most part our current D is more mobile and more offensively gifted (Wideman, Brodie, Russell, Butler even Smith) but they can be seen as softer in the defensive end and not able to hold back the opponents as well. It is a different D style than we are used to. It is definitely a Feaster style D on the whole. To play with that style of D however, you need a lights out goalie and a very fast, highly offence oriented forward group. Feaster started to try and build that last season but did not go wholesale and have the result.

 

SOB, Smid and Smith do not really fit the D mould that Feaster was going for, but because we no longer had a lights out goalie, we needed to stem some of the bleeding so here are these 3 playing on the team to try and help out a little. While Smid is definitely a defensive type guy we as fans are more used to having, he did not really fit the Feaster mould. SOB is a whole other story I won't even start to discuss here. I simply do not believe that SOB is the Dman we really need but he is serviceable. 

 

As for the forwards, Dutter had a very distinct plan which was not necessarily the best choice or the most exciting, but they did win games. He occasionally added a couple flashier players to get some excitement but he was solely focus on the immediate returns and not the future. With the extreme overloading of the same style of forward, it was clear that Calgary would eventually fall like they have. Feaster did not inherit a very strong, offensive based forward group in the minors or on the big club. One line of offence and the rest built for mainly defensive purposes along with a defensive defence core simply did not bode well for a Feaster styled team.

 

Feaster was able to mainly build the D he wanted and started to try and build his forwards in the style he wanted to see. Some of it was a bust, but there was not the prospect pool to draw from and grow with, and there was simply too many leftovers from Dutter which held him back from making the wholesale change. Instead, the Flames as we see them now are a hodgepodge of players with no real identity other than they are expected to work hard for the coaches and see what happens. Feaster wanted a fast, skilled, run and gun team which is exciting to watch and scores plenty of goals. As long as this team was able to score more goals and a solid goalie could hold of too many goals against, the team would win. The big problem is Kipper was getting older and got hurt so Calgary did not have that goalie. The D was not quite there last year. The addition of Russell this year, the rise of Brodie and Wideman doing well started things but they really needed 1 more D man of that mould to make it work. The bottom 6 forwards and even some of the top 6 simply did not fit the Feaster mould. He did not have the forwards to make that style work but he was working on it. Big problem though with some of last years drafting for his style of team. Monahan is not run and gun, he is more steady and smart, getting himself in the right spots while Poirier is uber fast but has a more truculent side as well. 

 

We now need to see what the Burke / new GM's plan will be and they need to make it happen soon (before the 14/15 season). There cannot be a mishmash, hodgepodge trying to do too many things team. It needs to have a set identity. 

 

Minnesota: Big frustrating team to play against, won't destroy you with offence but don't expect to score much

Tampa Bay: Highly mobile, fast, offensive team with a good goalie

Pittsburgh: Offense first mindset.

 

Calgary needs to decide what they will be and move the pieces that need to be moved which do not fit this mould, and then bring in the players who do fit. Feaster tried to bring in draft picks and some players to fit his mould but he failed to move out the players that didn't. The new management team cannot make that mistake.

 

A fast, gritty team with some good offensive pieces is a Burke style team. They do not need to be flashy but need to be able to finish the play. Glencross, Poirier, Byron (maybe small but watching him, he plays much bigger), Monahan, Bouma, Reinhart, Ferland and maybe Colbourne are Burke type players. Guys like Westgarth and McGrattan are necessary on a Burke team. Baertschi, Granlund, Gaudreau and Hudler are pieces that Burke likes to have to add that little bit of polish to the forward lines (see the Sedins). It is unlikely that he would have 4 or 5 shiny pieces like that on the team but 1-3 is possible. The D is not at all Burke esk. Other than Giordano and Smid I do not see a lot of love for the D from Burke. They simply do not have the size, truculence and skill combination that Burke likes. SOB simply isn't mobile enough, Wideman and Russell are not truculent enough, Smith lacks the talent in either offence or defence but is serviceable in both. Brodie is still growing so is unlikely to be traded and butler simply does not fit a Burke mould unless a 5-6 D man. I think Burke is currently on the Fence in net as he has currently 6 possible options for next season currently on the team and the ability to move for others if need be. I think this is a position he will not actively seek out but would not turn down a move if one fell in his lap.

 

I know I will likely be scolded when I list names here because they are likely not available or are fan favourites on the team but looking at Burke type teams and what the Flames have, I think the likelyhood of players going out and the TYPE of player that need to be brought in for next season would be:

 

Out

Wideman

Russell

Butler

SOB

Backlund

Stempniak

Cammalleri

J.Macdonald

Street

Stajan

D. Jones

B. Jones

Galiardi

 

Promoted

Reinhart

Knight

Ferland

 

Type to be brought in

Halak? (FA)

Ott (FA)

Colburn (Phi Trade)

Nikitin (CLB FA)

Vanek (FA)

Getzlaf (type)

Benn (type)

Couture (Type or trade)

Hanzal (Type or Trade)

Mason Raymond (FA)

Purcell

Carcillo (FA)

 

I know many of these are longshots, but I do believe these are the types of players that Calgary needs and that fit the Burke mould. Some may disagree, but this is what I see as a possibility.

 

Feel free to discuss.

[tmac70]

You make a valid point with the puck moving Dman. I still do not understand everyone's love for Brodie the guy can skate but that's it. I asked a NHL scout an assistant coach in the W and a former player( friends of mine) Brodie or Russell, everyone one stated hands down RUSSELL. The only knock on Russell is size, which he gives up a little on Brodie, however it isn't if Brodie is a power of force back there either.

 

If we can get some to take Wideman let him go as well. We have another great puck moving d in abbey with Billins at way less money. I would even considering keeping Butler. Butler has been invisible the past little while, which for him the less you hear of him in a game the better he plays.

 

First off let me say that not every player has to be truculent or big to be on Burke's teams. they do have to be good players that come to play every night and not be soft around the ice. The game has also changed since Burke built some of these previous teams. You need good puck movers on your D like Wideman, Giordano and Brodie but you need to pair them with solid nasty guard our end types so these guys can play their game. These 3 together with Smid are the ones I would be keeping for next year.

 

Most of our current forwards could be on the move but my keepers would be Baertschi, Monahan, D.Jones, Colburne, Glencross, Stempniak and Bouma. Westgarth likely stays around.

 

After the trade deadline wheeling and dealing is done I think the auditions begins from the farm to see what we have for 2014-15 team building plans.

[cross16]

You make a valid point with the puck moving Dman. I still do not understand everyone's love for Brodie the guy can skate but that's it. I asked a NHL scout an assistant coach in the W and a former player( friends of mine) Brodie or Russell, everyone one stated hands down RUSSELL. The only knock on Russell is size, which he gives up a little on Brodie, however it isn't if Brodie is a power of force back there either.

If we can get some to take Wideman let him go as well. We have another great puck moving d in abbey with Billins at way less money. I would even considering keeping Butler. Butler has been invisible the past little while, which for him the less you hear of him in a game the better he plays.

I don't disagree that Russell is playing better then Brodie and that Brodie is a bit overhyped but keep in mind that Russell is 3 years older than Brodie and at the same age did not look as good as Brodie looks. I think people are really losing sight of the fact that Brodie is 23 years old and being asked to play a role that is well above his skill set right now. IMO most dman don't hit their peak until 24-26 unless they are really special.

[phoenix66]

Car-bomb's skill does tend to be underrated by many, and he is exactly the kind of pest that the Flames could use to help some of the Flames younger players find time and space on the ice...   He tends to get under the oppositions skin and draw attention away from where the play is going...

 

I would not mind seeing him join the Flames at all if he signed a reasonable deal...

Agree completely..hes kind of like Avery without the D-bag factor.great combo of skill and sandpaper

[kehatch]

I don't disagree that Russell is playing better then Brodie and that Brodie is a bit overhyped but keep in mind that Russell is 3 years older than Brodie and at the same age did not look as good as Brodie looks. I think people are really losing sight of the fact that Brodie is 23 years old and being asked to play a role that is well above his skill set right now. IMO most dman don't hit their peak until 24-26 unless they are really special.

Indeed. Russell has also been slotted to get the offensively high ground while Brodie has been playing in a shut down role against the other teams best.

Swap the roles and Brodie will probably look substantially better than Russell.

I like them both. But if I had to pick one I pick Brodie. I think he is the better overall player today and I think he will continue to get better.

[travel_dude]

Indeed. Russell has also been slotted to get the offensively high ground while Brodie has been playing in a shut down role against the other teams best.

Swap the roles and Brodie will probably look substantially better than Russell.

I like them both. But if I had to pick one I pick Brodie. I think he is the better overall player today and I think he will continue to get better.

In a perfect world, Brodie would be a 5/6 D on this team, to give him the time to develop into a better all-round player. Playing 1st line minutes is just asking for trouble. He is getting better every year, but still has some learning to do. His puck moving is quite good, he walks the line really well, but he doesn't always play angles right, giving too much space. He is a keeper though.

[tmac70]

Your point was the question I asked my pro buddies, They never stated Brodie was a poor player they did reiterate what travel dude made point of Brodie is nothing more than a 5/6 guy. Russell has way more offensive vision/talent and hockey sense than Brodie ever will. He is a typical player that plays big which was their sediment and that is commented in his scouting report. 

 

Brodie is being used well above his means and it shows.  I would not be opposed to moving him or keeping him. However he does need to be placed in a lesser more suitable role, maybe in time he learns to be more positional sound. Russell can play 3/4 minutes and can quarterback the power play. IMO large part of the shortage of goals is his not being in the line up. Russell being resigned would be a great role model for Brodie as well. 

I don't disagree that Russell is playing better then Brodie and that Brodie is a bit overhyped but keep in mind that Russell is 3 years older than Brodie and at the same age did not look as good as Brodie looks. I think people are really losing sight of the fact that Brodie is 23 years old and being asked to play a role that is well above his skill set right now. IMO most dman don't hit their peak until 24-26 unless they are really special.

[Young_Guns_V2]

     Well this is how it is in a rebuild. Yes the Flames have been exceptionally bad for the past 10 games, but it is not Burke's fault. The lack of offense can be compounded into a combination of some bad play, bad luck and a failure on the coaches part to find that right chemistry in the lines to match up. The team has moments of brilliance but unable to maintain its consistency. The Flames don't have all the pieces yet to break to the next level as a team and win those close games.

    The silver lining is that the Flames are now more solidified in the bottom three and have increased the odds of finding another piece of the puzzle. Feastler aced the last draft though so I am pretty sure the Flames have a promising future before them. It is in these dark times that we need to be strong and look at the big picture instead of trying to lynch someone out of frustration.

[cross16]

Your point was the question I asked my pro buddies, They never stated Brodie was a poor player they did reiterate what travel dude made point of Brodie is nothing more than a 5/6 guy. Russell has way more offensive vision/talent and hockey sense than Brodie ever will. He is a typical player that plays big which was their sediment and that is commented in his scouting report. 

 

Brodie is being used well above his means and it shows.  I would not be opposed to moving him or keeping him. However he does need to be placed in a lesser more suitable role, maybe in time he learns to be more positional sound. Russell can play 3/4 minutes and can quarterback the power play. IMO large part of the shortage of goals is his not being in the line up. Russell being resigned would be a great role model for Brodie as well. 

Well see i guess but I do know that Russell at the same age as Brodie REALLY struggled in the NHL. I think comparing the two of them is very unfair to Brodie which is what is a getting at.

[zima]

I have been hearing alot about trading Cammi I klnow he hasn't been producing a whole lot and now he is hurt but I don't think what we would get back for him is worth the move. He is a good player and can be useful in our orginization and is a better player for us than moving him for a third or second round pick and some young maybe prospect. I for one hope he resighns here for a couple of more yrs not sure when Jonny hockey is coming to cow town next yr or 2016 but with players like cammi and staj he will get some very good advice and support on and off the ice. Jmo 

[phoenix66]

I have been hearing alot about trading Cammi I klnow he hasn't been producing a whole lot and now he is hurt but I don't think what we would get back for him is worth the move. He is a good player and can be useful in our orginization and is a better player for us than moving him for a third or second round pick and some young maybe prospect. I for one hope he resighns here for a couple of more yrs not sure when Jonny hockey is coming to cow town next yr or 2016 but with players like cammi and staj he will get some very good advice and support on and off the ice. Jmo 

I agree with all your reasons for keeping him except, only if he resigns between 3-3.5 mill. Unfortunately he will get more than that on the open market. Likely between 4.5-6 depending on term. That's more than we are or at least should be willing to pay.

Its reasonable to expect a first and a prospect at the deadline from a contending team. Or at least a second and a higher level prospect.

Hes worth more to us in a trade.

I also suspect, hes a true professional and would never make it public but he has also most likely asked to be moved.

[MAC331]

He is in his UFA year, you move a player like this because you will get a high draft pick and the Flames still need to build up their draft position. I think we can do better than Cammalleri going forward.

I agree with all your reasons for keeping him except, only if he resigns between 3-3.5 mill. Unfortunately he will get more than that on the open market. Likely between 4.5-6 depending on term. That's more than we are or at least should be willing to pay.
Its reasonable to expect a first and a prospect at the deadline from a contending team. Or at least a second and a higher level prospect.
Hes worth more to us in a trade.
I also suspect, hes a true professional and would never make it public but he has also most likely asked to be moved.

[Trollbalini]

Trade gio to the oilers! We've got some skill players you can have!

[s4xon]

Trade gio to the oilers! We've got some skill players you can have!

 

We'll start with Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, and this year's first round pick.  You've got yourself a deal.

[zima]

Why would we want to givce the oil slicks a foot up ?

[DirtyDeeds]

Realities are Gio has a NMC and a NTC until 2015 so sorry.

 

However we do have one D that a lot of people around here seem to want to get rid of who is playing a lot better lately.

 

Butler for any of your skilled #1 picks.. Your choice. Butler has played a lot of top 2 D minutes around here the past couple years........

Trade gio to the oilers! We've got some skill players you can have!

[MAC331]

Come on, at the very least you trade Cammalleri. He is a UFA at the end of the year and he will bring back something of value for a rebuild situation. Hudler is under contract and for that reason has some enhanced value which could help this rebuild. Stempniak is the player I would look to keep, at his price like Stajan he likely has more value for us than what we would get for him.

My biggest fear is they going to move cammi hud and get nothing in return we need to stands pat I don't mind picking around 1-4th over all it is sad we have been shut out 5 times already I was looking for more of a reasonable goals for and against per game I thought we would get blowen out here and there but shutouts were something that I didn't for see not at this rate. I hope we stay where we are and use our picks keep what we have. We will need the vets for our future and they are good players no doubt about that.

[bronco73]

Didnt feaster try to move cammi last summer after he quietly requested a trade? With the lowering cap I think feaster found it tough to move him. Right now is a far better time to try to move him, he is playing well, cap is going up, and you'd easily get some value coming back