Goaltending

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Every goalie is at risk to get injured and have it impact their play.

Not saying it's 100% true that he was, but last year it seemed that it was like a light switch, not a gradual decay.

I'm as concerned about any goalie we have maintaining his play through the season.

Last year, we rode Rittich too hard at times, mostly due to Smith being crap.

Injury concern, lax play or burnt out, Rittich sat more games in the early spring.

Manage the starts better and that may not be as likely to happen.

 

I'm more concerned with Talbot being able to handle 40 games at this point.

If he's another Lack, then we will be forced to live and die with Rittich, which sets him up for regression or injury.

The only thing positive about our goaltending is we don't have to suffer through another year of Smith's ups and downs.

 

I haven’t looked but I also think they rode him too hard in spurts, by not having a real plan. They kept going back to Smith and saying it was his net. 

 

I dunno. I think this tandem is better, but how much depends on the defensive breakdowns that the Flames have and limiting the severity. It tends to be timely as well, in terms of the time of the game or when momentum is important.

[sak22]

43 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I agree with the D. 

 

How would you rate our Defense, and amongst the rest of the league? 

 

The talking heads thought we were deep a few seasons ago.

 

I think we are above average offensively and average defensively. Tough to rate considering the goaltending. And I think that goaltending and D are a result of each’s effort/play. 

 

D can help make a goalie better and a goalie can make D better.

Based on last season I'd say its well above league average.  I think we put our own team under a microscope, when the Flames were scoring at will early in the year we always praise our effort, but we never say that the other teams D was Satoshi Nakamototy.  If you watch every team with the same lens as you do your favourites you will see most teams make the same errors that the Flames make and as often or more often.  I don't think you can be a top 10 team in GAA while being one of the worst teams defensively.  Just my 2 cents.

[robrob74]

29 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Based on last season I'd say its well above league average.  I think we put our own team under a microscope, when the Flames were scoring at will early in the year we always praise our effort, but we never say that the other teams D was Satoshi Nakamototy.  If you watch every team with the same lens as you do your favourites you will see most teams make the same errors that the Flames make and as often or more often.  I don't think you can be a top 10 team in GAA while being one of the worst teams defensively.  Just my 2 cents.

 

 

You're probably partially right. But for me it is seeing the tendencies that have happened even when we were a bad team. 

 

I just expect that it gets cleaned up. 

[Cowtownguy]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

You're probably partially right. But for me it is seeing the tendencies that have happened even when we were a bad team. 

 

I just expect that it gets cleaned up. 

I think that we have a solid defence core. The problem that I have is that I may be embedded in the older way of playing defence. I was a big Reggie fan and loved it when he cleared the net. His skating was not great especially after the accident that broke both of his legs. He did generate some fear in the opposing team. You mess with Kipper, and you ARE going to pay. I would like to see more of that. Hamonic and Gio provide some toughness, but not quite like guys did back in the day. 

[Carty]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

I think that we have a solid defence core. The problem that I have is that I may be embedded in the older way of playing defence. I was a big Reggie fan and loved it when he cleared the net. His skating was not great especially after the accident that broke both of his legs. He did generate some fear in the opposing team. You mess with Kipper, and you ARE going to pay. I would like to see more of that. Hamonic and Gio provide some toughness, but not quite like guys did back in the day. 

 

re: bolded...   Problem?...   I don't see one...   The older way still works...   We still see it on some teams, just not nearly as much as we used to...   What bothers me is when we see another team doing it to our forwards, and our team doesn't clue in and do the same to theirs...

[jjgallow]

 

I don't see the strength on defence that others do.   As we approach the season start, I'll move to a more positive or at least neutral stance, so I'll not elaborate on my thoughts with our defence.

 

But, I will say that after getting blown out in the playoffs, 50 shots against per game, it was incredible to see an immediate response "we need a better right winger", or "we just need a really good offensive center"..  Literally this happened.

 

When you look at a hockey team, you look from the net out.

 

You address your goaltending.  Now and more importantly for the future.

 

Next you solidify you defence, your defensive pipeline, you team defence.

 

When that's all down you start talking about forwards.

 

 

Defence is ALWAYS the priority.   Always.   It's like making sure your car has tires, making sure you have shoes on when you go for a walk.

 

Even if we Didn't get blown out defensively in the playoffs, we should Never be at point where we take defence lightly or think it's "ok" and move on to the dire situation on the wing.

[conundrumed]

On 9/6/2019 at 6:46 PM, Carty said:

 

re: bolded...   Problem?...   I don't see one...   The older way still works...   We still see it on some teams, just not nearly as much as we used to...   What bothers me is when we see another team doing it to our forwards, and our team doesn't clue in and do the same to theirs...

Reminds me of an LA game years ago with Dustin Brown as a really hardnosed, intimidating winger.

Gio absolutely abused him. We don't really have that kind of dman anymore. That pure attitude. Everything has been puck movers and shot blockers ever since.

People are generally down on JBo being here. But he was the first dman we had in years that knew HOW to protect Kipper.

What I see is a lot of stick waving dmen. If teams like the Avs come at you with that 1st line and you intimidate none of them, you're in huge trouble, as we saw.

That's near every team in the league's 1st line. If we can't intimidate them coming into our zone, they're playing pond hockey. No hits, no worries.

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Reminds me of an LA game years ago with Dustin Brown as a really hardnosed, intimidating winger.

Gio absolutely abused him. We don't really have that kind of dman anymore. That pure attitude. Everything has been puck movers and shot blockers ever since.

People are generally down on JBo being here. But he was the first dman we had in years that knew HOW to protect Kipper.

What I see is a lot of stick waving dmen. If teams like the Avs come at you with that 1st line and you intimidate none of them, you're in huge trouble, as we saw.

That's near every team in the league's 1st line. If we can't intimidate them coming into our zone, they're playing pond hockey. No hits, no worries.

 

Yes, that can be a problem.

You can stop the Oilers first line by preventing them from gaining any speed in the neutral zone.

[Cowtownguy]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:46 PM, Carty said:

 

re: bolded...   Problem?...   I don't see one...   The older way still works...   We still see it on some teams, just not nearly as much as we used to...   What bothers me is when we see another team doing it to our forwards, and our team doesn't clue in and do the same to theirs...

I have asked a few players that I know about changes in the way defencemen play the position. It seems to me that they need to be more aggressive and check as often as possible. They argue that few players are taught this style anymore. They are simply taught to be more Russell than Reggie.

[Horsman1]

Gio/Brodie... Hamonic/Hanafin are in the top 5   of the top 4 in the league.. The issue being Brodie's head space.. where's he at.. If Brodie plays to his Potential.. I really like where our defence is at.. our 5/6 are a work in progress but Anderson has done well and Kylington has potential.. There certainly are no Regher;s on this team but.. if yoiu can find one.. I'd trade just about anything we have on hold for development for him

 

[jjgallow]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:54 PM, Cowtownguy said:

I have asked a few players that I know about changes in the way defencemen play the position. It seems to me that they need to be more aggressive and check as often as possible. They argue that few players are taught this style anymore. They are simply taught to be more Russell than Reggie.

 

Well and that's a good question...what impact would a Robyn Regehr have in today's NHL?

 

Personally i think it's a lost art and he'd be devastatingly effective, but I have no way of validating that.

 

It was refreshing, touching back to our topic, when defencemen established as much of a relationship with their goalie as their wingers.

[robrob74]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well and that's a good question...what impact would a Robyn Regehr have in today's NHL?

 

Personally i think it's a lost art and he'd be devastatingly effective, but I have no way of validating that.

 

It was refreshing, touching back to our topic, when defencemen established as much of a relationship with their goalie as their wingers.

 

 

Yes and I think Hamonic is close as he does care for his goalies. He’s the only one to stand up for them, or at least since he got here nobody did that.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well and that's a good question...what impact would a Robyn Regehr have in today's NHL?

 

Personally i think it's a lost art and he'd be devastatingly effective, but I have no way of validating that.

 

It was refreshing, touching back to our topic, when defencemen established as much of a relationship with their goalie as their wingers.

The speed of the players nowadays is a deterrent to hitting really hard. Can't afford to be 2 steps out of position because you'll get owned.

I'd see Reg and Phaneuf go to opposite sides for a crushing hit. Today, they'd be benched for doing that.

The game is so different now. Hedman can be considered one of the best in the league, but hitting isn't much a part of why he's so good.

In honesty, I'd say it's been/being coached right out of the league.

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

The speed of the players nowadays is a deterrent to hitting really hard. Can't afford to be 2 steps out of position because you'll get owned.

I'd see Reg and Phaneuf go to opposite sides for a crushing hit. Today, they'd be benched for doing that.

The game is so different now. Hedman can be considered one of the best in the league, but hitting isn't much a part of why he's so good.

In honesty, I'd say it's been/being coached right out of the league.

 

Well some of the rules have changed as well.

You can't clear the player from the crease without getting nailed for Xchecking or holding (as soon as you take a glove off your stick and push).

I love the way Ras plays.

A bit of old school (Hamonic style of taking the body) and a bit puck mover.

And he has a shot to boot.

One that actually can hit the net.

He doesn;t scare anyone, but he's involved.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well some of the rules have changed as well.

You can't clear the player from the crease without getting nailed for Xchecking or holding (as soon as you take a glove off your stick and push).

I love the way Ras plays.

A bit of old school (Hamonic style of taking the body) and a bit puck mover.

And he has a shot to boot.

One that actually can hit the net.

He doesn;t scare anyone, but he's involved.

Mi see cross-checking all the time in front of the goalies. Every time Flames player gets close. It’s not as bad as it used to be, but other teams make Flames players pay the price a lot more than the Flames D do to them. Maybe that is more after the whistle stuff.  The refs seem to let a lot of that go against the Flames.

[jjgallow]

I agree with all of the above, but also it must be recognized that things go in cycles.

 

It is extremely hard to rid the game of the physical component entirely.   Going back over 60 years we have gone through many cycles of the league getting smaller, followed by some larger teams dominating for several years.    

 

And in the playoffs, it's most consistently physical.

 

Maybe you can't pull some of the more questionable moves Regehr did, just like he couldn't afford to take some of the offensive chances players do now.

 

But a young learnable Regehr, coming into this league now, I would like to see that.  I'm talking about that relentless physical presence combined with high hockey IQ and skill.  Keep in mind that he Was in fact a scorer earlier in his career.   So he might be coached to be some hybrid of what we knew then and what is now.   But that physical presence and defensive IQ...that I can't wait to see again.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Mi see cross-checking all the time in front of the goalies. Every time Flames player gets close. It’s not as bad as it used to be, but other teams make Flames players pay the price a lot more than the Flames D do to them. Maybe that is more after the whistle stuff.  The refs seem to let a lot of that go against the Flames.

 

Some teams get away with it more.

We do it a bit (Hammer and Ras more so), but we also get called a lot.

The rules were changed to take this out of the game but it remains.

You can leave both hands on your stick and push with both hands, but not with the stick and not with a glove only.

 

The refs tend to let one or two go, but will call the next one or the retailiation.

Brodie has no strength to do it.

Gio can sometimes do it, but it turns into a sust up.

Hammer can do it and mostly doesn;t get called.

Most forwards don;t take him on.

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Some teams get away with it more.

We do it a bit (Hammer and Ras more so), but we also get called a lot.

The rules were changed to take this out of the game but it remains.

You can leave both hands on your stick and push with both hands, but not with the stick and not with a glove only.

 

The refs tend to let one or two go, but will call the next one or the retailiation.

Brodie has no strength to do it.

Gio can sometimes do it, but it turns into a sust up.

Hammer can do it and mostly doesn;t get called.

Most forwards don;t take him on.

 

 

Maybe this is where the size is noticeable, Flames being smallish get pushed around in some ways. And it looks like a cross-check and it isn’t.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Maybe this is where the size is noticeable, Flames being smallish get pushed around in some ways. And it looks like a cross-check and it isn’t.

 

Or perhaps some teams are dirty.

A Xcheck to the back would hurt.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

I think we've seen the last of Gillies, I expect him to be placed on loan to another American league franchise. It hasn't been for a lack of opportunity, the Flames have given him every opportunity to be the goalie of the future over Rittich and every single time Rittich has outperformed Gillies even in the AHL where he was given less favorable starts than Gillies (2nd half of b2bs).

[cccsberg]

7 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think we've seen the last of Gillies, I expect him to be placed on loan to another American league franchise. It hasn't been for a lack of opportunity, the Flames have given him every opportunity to be the goalie of the future over Rittich and every single time Rittich has outperformed Gillies even in the AHL where he was given less favorable starts than Gillies (2nd half of b2bs).

Agree, it is sad to see but realistically this happens all the time with players just not quite good enough.  The Flames certainly have given him lots of chances.  I'm sure a change of scenery would do him a world of good.

[kehatch]

I would have liked to see Gilles get a full start. Coming in for the last half is hard on a goalie. That said, Gilles just doesn't look right. It doesn't look like rust or nerves, it looks like he doesn't have the basic fundamentals. He isn't tracking the puck at all, his judgment is poor, his five hole is massive, and somehow he manages to look small despite his size. 

 

I don't know how they give him more time. They have two more throw away games, then two where they need to start taking things seriously. Talbot needs one of the throw aways and your would think they want to give Zagidulin a game to help his development and do some assessment. You would have to think Zag is the first call up if we have an injury so he needs a game. 

 

That leaves  rotation as Talbot, Zag, Talbot, Rittich. It might change a bit, but unless they let Gilles split next game with Talbot then I think he is done as a Flame. 

[Thebrewcrew]

Talbot and Rittich will each get a complete start in the final 2 exhibition games, I think the next 2 we see both of them play something like 40 mins and be backed up by Zag/Parsons

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

I would have liked to see Gilles get a full start. Coming in for the last half is hard on a goalie. That said, Gilles just doesn't look right. It doesn't look like rust or nerves, it looks like he doesn't have the basic fundamentals. He isn't tracking the puck at all, his judgment is poor, his five hole is massive, and somehow he manages to look small despite his size. 

 

I don't know how they give him more time. They have two more throw away games, then two where they need to start taking things seriously. Talbot needs one of the throw aways and your would think they want to give Zagidulin a game to help his development and do some assessment. You would have to think Zag is the first call up if we have an injury so he needs a game. 

 

That leaves  rotation as Talbot, Zag, Talbot, Rittich. It might change a bit, but unless they let Gilles split next game with Talbot then I think he is done as a Flame. 

 

Talbot should get a start for sure.  Not sure if we give him the full lineup to gain confidence, seeing as it's against a full Oiles squad.

Rittich doesn't seem to need to do anything to gain confidence, as he's already there.

Zag should get another game, but I'm conflicted about Parsons.

They can't screw him up in the head by favoring Zag.

They need to let the Heat determiine the starter there.

 

From what I have seen, Zag is playing his way into 1st callup.

[sak22]

12 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think we've seen the last of Gillies, I expect him to be placed on loan to another American league franchise. It hasn't been for a lack of opportunity, the Flames have given him every opportunity to be the goalie of the future over Rittich and every single time Rittich has outperformed Gillies even in the AHL where he was given less favorable starts than Gillies (2nd half of b2bs).

Let the full blown "we could have had Matt Murray instead" talk commence for the next 20 years.  Call it the sequel to the overly annoying Kidd over Brodeur.