Goaltending

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

Why burn a bridge? Small world and I don't think it says much about Fleurys character to go out of his way to screw over a team that was very good to him. 

 

Lots of players have used their NMC in the past to stay with their teams.  In this case, it's the Pens burning the bridge with Fleury.  Fleury will have done nothing wrong but exercise his contractual rights.

[robrob74]

On 2017-05-12 at 10:10 AM, travel_dude said:

 

First bolded item - if he drags the team to another cup, then his price goes up.  I don't think his value is higher, but PITSS would believe so.  If they can't find a team on the list to take him, they will have to trade Murray.  That price would be so much higher.

 

Second bolded item - obviously, since they have at minimum 48 hours if they go to the finals and take it past 6 games.

 

Third bolded item - that's like saying Boston would trade with EDM after Chia was signed there.  Can't recall any trades there. 

 

Not picking on you, but I could only see Buffalo trading Lehner if they feel his injury history is too risky.  He's a perfect goalie for them otherwise; played well on a bad team. 

 

People are making it sound like their roster/exposure list isn't already done. They will have that decision made already and if they really want both, maybe they trade LV another player or pick so they don't take one. I personally think the decision has been made. But that comes down to, a future goalie or a goalie for now.

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Lots of players have used their NMC in the past to stay with their teams.  In this case, it's the Pens burning the bridge with Fleury.  Fleury will have done nothing wrong but exercise his contractual rights.

 

You know what, that's true.   I didn't think of it that way.  These guys have families and kids.   

 

I don't think a player can screw their team over by wanting to stay with them.

 

So...I suppose, if he exercised that (still unlikely imho), Matt Murray would be out the door.  Which really Wouldn't be screwing them over because the return would be phenomenal.   They would end up extremely strong somewhere, and either relying on Tristan Jarry to step up, or looking to acquire a replacement.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Either he waives his NMC to be claimed for nothing or he gets traded elsewhere or stays.  I don't get how the PENS would have a deal in place for a trade to LV.  If you mean they have an agreement that they will expose MAF and LV will choose MAF, that is different.  How does MAF benefit in that scenario?  

Exactly! After carrying the mail for the Pengies in goal his whole career & then being forced out he owes them nothing.

Forcing a buyout puts almost $2 miilion a year in his account for 4 years. @ 32 he can count on some team offering him @ least 4 for a few years. Kind of double dipping the $s but he has nothing to lose.

Those that say he'd be a starter in LV don't account for the fact he'll be the starter on any team signing him as UFA. He was the 1st payoff in the Pens as they deliberately sucked in a well timed tank that added Malkin & Crosby while biding time in the minors. Rather than go through a build from nothing scenario again (& being older with less career years left) he could be the starter on a team that is either a contender (Calgary) or on the bubble (Winnipeg) while pocketing more cash.

Fleury gains nothing by waiving only to end up in LV (& if he has a urge to play there the buyout $s on top of what they offer as UFA are still better for him). What can the Pens offer him to waive?

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

You know what, that's true.   I didn't think of it that way.  These guys have families and kids.   

 

I don't think a player can screw their team over by wanting to stay with them.

 

So...I suppose, if he exercised that (still unlikely imho), Matt Murray would be out the door.  Which really Wouldn't be screwing them over because the return would be phenomenal.   They would end up extremely strong somewhere, and either relying on Tristan Jarry to step up, or looking to acquire a replacement.

 

That's kind of what I was alluding to.  MAF holds some of the cards because JR painted himself into a corner.  He's lived there for many many years.  WHy would he want to move just to make it easy for the GM.  Even being painted into a corner, he can still come out ahead.  Could make a deal with Vegas not to take one of their other prized players.  Trade Murray for a ton.  Much easier deal to make.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

48 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's kind of what I was alluding to.  MAF holds some of the cards because JR painted himself into a corner.  He's lived there for many many years.  WHy would he want to move just to make it easy for the GM.  Even being painted into a corner, he can still come out ahead.  Could make a deal with Vegas not to take one of their other prized players.  Trade Murray for a ton.  Much easier deal to make.  

Actually ive heard alot of rumors that the pens might trade murray for a ton, simply because they are high on tristan jarry. Its probably all talk, but keeping tristan jarry with the big club next year + MAF, then trading murray as you said for a ton could be a great move for the team. If they trade MAF then they have tristan jarry + murray next year in the future, and both guys are young, very high end goaltenders. Goaltending is one of those positions where I think its hard to say having two young studs that are raedy for NHL duty is a bad thing, yeah you could trade one of them but then you have to bring in a veteran back up( theres nothing wrong with that). If I was the pens I would be seriously considering trading murray for assets and bringing up tristan jarry to play under MAF next year especially if they win the cup this spring. 

[conundrumed]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's kind of what I was alluding to.  MAF holds some of the cards because JR painted himself into a corner.  He's lived there for many many years.  WHy would he want to move just to make it easy for the GM.  Even being painted into a corner, he can still come out ahead.  Could make a deal with Vegas not to take one of their other prized players.  Trade Murray for a ton.  Much easier deal to make.  

It might be as easy as LV is willing to extend Fleury for another 2 or 3 at 4per.

One thing I'm certain of, Rutherford is a fox, MAF will get looked after wherever he sends him. It won't be a death sentence.

If it's Murray, JR is crazy like a fox.

Can't see it, but who am I. lol

[cross16]

15 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Lots of players have used their NMC in the past to stay with their teams.  In this case, it's the Pens burning the bridge with Fleury.  Fleury will have done nothing wrong but exercise his contractual rights.

 

But that assumes that staying with the Penguins is an option and I personally don't think it is. I don't think under any circumstances will the Pens trade Murray. 

[YounGuns]

20 hours ago, cross16 said:

There are rumours circulating that Vegas and the Pens already have an agreement in place that will send Fleury to Vegas. 

 

That to me is interesting, particularly because the Pens either have to deal one goalie, or lose one to Las Vegas for nothing.  So why would Vegas make a deal when Pittsburgh is in tough not to lose one of their goalies to Vegas for nothing in return?  Plus, MAF would have to agree to it, and why would any goalie agree to be shipped to a start-up team that is going to have a real tough time icing a full NHL ready team, let a lone a competitive NHL team.

 

MAF deserved the contract and the rights he got in that contract, so I think he should exercise them.  I can't see him wanting to go to Vegas, and at the end of the day the decision is his.

[YounGuns]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

But that assumes that staying with the Penguins is an option and I personally don't think it is. I don't think under any circumstances will the Pens trade Murray. 

 

I agree.  Murry isn't going anywhere.  He is their next budding star.  He's their most promising young talent and no way they get rid of him.  I think they will try everything to get rid of MAF and to send him to a team that he agrees to go to so that they can protect Murray in the expansion draft.  Their options to trade MAF will be limited, and I can't see them coming ahead in this situation.  I think they will try to minimize their losses, but that GM is going to have to be a wizard to come out on top.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It might be as easy as LV is willing to extend Fleury for another 2 or 3 at 4per.

One thing I'm certain of, Rutherford is a fox, MAF will get looked after wherever he sends him. It won't be a death sentence.

If it's Murray, JR is crazy like a fox.

Can't see it, but who am I. lol

 

MAF will be around 34 when his current deal ends.  Many goalies have gotten close to $6m extending at that age.  

If MAF does not want to go to LV, then he won't.  Simple as that.  I would suggest that some people in the world do not want to live in Vegas.

 

There may be a team or two that wants him, but CGY is the only real one that is desperate.  I can't see them trading at all costs, so JR may get stuck or just take the low ball offer we give, assuming we want him.

[DirtyDeeds]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

MAF will be around 34 when his current deal ends.  Many goalies have gotten close to $6m extending at that age.  

If MAF does not want to go to LV, then he won't.  Simple as that.  I would suggest that some people in the world do not want to live in Vegas.

 

There may be a team or two that wants him, but CGY is the only real one that is desperate.  I can't see them trading at all costs, so JR may get stuck or just take the low ball offer we give, assuming we want him.

I don't think the Flames are desperate at all. I think the Fans might be desperate but not the Flames.

 

I also think the Flames are okay with Elliott. The Flames might bring in another goalie to compete with Elliott or to replace Johnson but I just don't see them getting an upgrade to Elliott. There simple is not that many upgrades around now. MAF might be the last upgrade available.

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I don't think the Flames are desperate at all. I think the Fans might be desperate but not the Flames.

 

I also think the Flames are okay with Elliott. The Flames might bring in another goalie to compete with Elliott or to replace Johnson but I just don't see them getting an upgrade to Elliott. There simple is not that many upgrades around now. MAF might be the last upgrade available.

 

When I say desperate, I mean the only one with a hole at the position, as in no goalie signed yet.

 

I would be okay with Elliott and a goalie like Raanta or Grubauer.  At least that way you have options.  If you are trading the equivalent to re-sign Elliott for MAF, then fine.  You still should be looking at a Raanta.  CJ did not give me much peace of mind the end of the season. 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, YounGuns said:

 

That to me is interesting, particularly because the Pens either have to deal one goalie, or lose one to Las Vegas for nothing.  So why would Vegas make a deal when Pittsburgh is in tough not to lose one of their goalies to Vegas for nothing in return?  Plus, MAF would have to agree to it, and why would any goalie agree to be shipped to a start-up team that is going to have a real tough time icing a full NHL ready team, let a lone a competitive NHL team.

 

MAF deserved the contract and the rights he got in that contract, so I think he should exercise them.  I can't see him wanting to go to Vegas, and at the end of the day the decision is his.

This is what keeps coming back at me to think it can go either way ..but I dont think Vegas is a logical/ viable TRADE partner for him 

 

on the one hand, as pointed out earlier , Pens have no other goalie available in their system to expose if they trade him to a non Vegas team.. so they have to get a goalie back which is Expansion eligible..or they still have to expose Murray

 

If they work a deal with Vegas to Trade MAF to Vegas, then, as is the Nature of trades , Vegas will have to return something , even if its a 7th round pick, in the trade ..and this begs the question, why would Vegas give up something to get MAF, when they can do nothing , and get Murray ?

 

Pittsburgh could throw something else in the deal, but then that strikes down the argument about trading MAF and then having to give up another player anyway 

Not to mention , if Fleury is wiling to list LV as one of his ok teams, then why not just get him to waive.. but then they lose him for nothing.. which brings us back to .. PITT needs to trade him before the draft (and somehow solve the goalie in return dilemma)

 

an not being a homer at all,  I just only see Calgary as a true viable trade partner

I can see Buff (which would then make Lehner available), Maybe Winnipeg, but with Connor I dont see them want a 5+M starter, NYI and VAN could be dark horses.. give your head a shake if you think PITT would ever trade him to Philly

[Flyerfan52]

27 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

This is what keeps coming back at me to think it can go either way ..but I dont think Vegas is a logical/ viable TRADE partner for him 

 

on the one hand, as pointed out earlier , Pens have no other goalie available in their system to expose if they trade him to a non Vegas team.. so they have to get a goalie back which is Expansion eligible..or they still have to expose Murray

 

If they work a deal with Vegas to Trade MAF to Vegas, then, as is the Nature of trades , Vegas will have to return something , even if its a 7th round pick, in the trade ..and this begs the question, why would Vegas give up something to get MAF, when they can do nothing , and get Murray ?

 

Pittsburgh could throw something else in the deal, but then that strikes down the argument about trading MAF and then having to give up another player anyway 

Not to mention , if Fleury is wiling to list LV as one of his ok teams, then why not just get him to waive.. but then they lose him for nothing.. which brings us back to .. PITT needs to trade him before the draft (and somehow solve the goalie in return dilemma)

 

an not being a homer at all,  I just only see Calgary as a true viable trade partner

I can see Buff (which would then make Lehner available), Maybe Winnipeg, but with Connor I dont see them want a 5+M starter, NYI and VAN could be dark horses.. give your head a shake if you think PITT would ever trade him to Philly

This won't happen but would make me lmao. Days after the Sens eliminate the Pengies they trade MAF with slight retention to LV.  Then when they submit the list of draft eligibles they realize they have only Murray to expose. Too late to do anything about it so LV picks up Murray as well. Now Pitts goes from 2 NHL goalies to 0 & hunts for a new tandem.

Then (for a further ha-ha) McPhee trades the retained cost MAF to the Pengies cross state enemy for a 2nd to replace the lost 1.

 

Unlikely chain of events but it would make my day.

*******************************************************************************

Re: the high lighted do you mean Connor Hellebuyck? He's more or less dropped to a 1b hope while Eric  Comrie is the hope for the Jets future starter.

[cross16]

there would be no trade in place for Vegas to trade for Fleury outside the expansion draft. Any deal involved with Fleury would be a deal for his selection in the expansion draft. 

 

even if Fleury doesn't want to play for Vegas here is another scenario.  Pittsburgh sends Vegas a 3rd rounder to ensure they select Fleury. Vegas selects Fleury and then turns around and trades him to the Flames for a first rounder. Everyone gets what they want and vegas gets 2 assets plus can still claim various other goalies some that would fit better long term.  Values could be off but this is for scenario purposes only. 

 

There are so many different ways that things can go down and multiple scenarios in play. 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

there would be no trade in place for Vegas to trade for Fleury outside the expansion draft. Any deal involved with Fleury would be a deal for his selection in the expansion draft. 

 

even if Fleury doesn't want to play for Vegas here is another scenario.  Pittsburgh sends Vegas a 3rd rounder to ensure they select Fleury. Vegas selects Fleury and then turns around and trades him to the Flames for a first rounder. Everyone gets what they want and vegas gets 2 assets plus can still claim various other goalies some that would fit better long term.  Values could be off but this is for scenario purposes only. 

 

There are so many different ways that things can go down and multiple scenarios in play. 

but for all this to happen, MAF has to agree to be exposed.. at which point they can just take him anyway , they don't need to make the deal with Vegas then 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

there would be no trade in place for Vegas to trade for Fleury outside the expansion draft. Any deal involved with Fleury would be a deal for his selection in the expansion draft. 

 

even if Fleury doesn't want to play for Vegas here is another scenario.  Pittsburgh sends Vegas a 3rd rounder to ensure they select Fleury. Vegas selects Fleury and then turns around and trades him to the Flames for a first rounder. Everyone gets what they want and vegas gets 2 assets plus can still claim various other goalies some that would fit better long term.  Values could be off but this is for scenario purposes only. 

 

There are so many different ways that things can go down and multiple scenarios in play. 

 

Why wouldn't the pens jus trade him to the Flames for the 1st then and get more for Fleury? Is it because they don't want to lose someone else?

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

When I say desperate, I mean the only one with a hole at the position, as in no goalie signed yet.

 

If you ask me, given the circumstances this year, that is a position of strength.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I don't think the Flames are desperate at all. I think the Fans might be desperate but not the Flames.

 

I also think the Flames are okay with Elliott. The Flames might bring in another goalie to compete with Elliott or to replace Johnson but I just don't see them getting an upgrade to Elliott. There simple is not that many upgrades around now. MAF might be the last upgrade available.

 

To me, desperate is when you're a contender with bad goaltending and very few options for improving it.

 

We are not one thing in that statement.  Not a contender, not without options, and not with bad goaltending.

 

And quite frankly, I think we have bigger issues than goaltending.

 

And even if it was all about goaltending, I think there are more valuable conversations than MAF and MM.   That will likely be a bidding war with no clear winners.   The best moves, and likely best goalies, are likely a little further away from the limelight  (unless somehow MM becomes available, highly unlikely).

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

there would be no trade in place for Vegas to trade for Fleury outside the expansion draft. Any deal involved with Fleury would be a deal for his selection in the expansion draft. 

 

even if Fleury doesn't want to play for Vegas here is another scenario.  Pittsburgh sends Vegas a 3rd rounder to ensure they select Fleury. Vegas selects Fleury and then turns around and trades him to the Flames for a first rounder. Everyone gets what they want and vegas gets 2 assets plus can still claim various other goalies some that would fit better long term.  Values could be off but this is for scenario purposes only. 

 

There are so many different ways that things can go down and multiple scenarios in play. 

 

Only LV, Pits, and the Flames get what they want in this scenario.  Why would MAF subject himself to being passed around when he has full control of his own fate?   The only situation where MAF guarantees he wins is where he exercise his NMC and I would suspect that's the way he will go.  If he gets bought out, then he can find a new team and double dip payroll.  

 

In that situation, MAF may be okay coming to the Flames (or any team) for less money (since he is already getting paid by the Pens).  This would be a better win for MAF and his new team.  Screw the Pens since they don't want to honor his NMC.

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Why wouldn't the pens jus trade him to the Flames for the 1st then and get more for Fleury? Is it because they don't want to lose someone else?

 

 

Makes too much sense.

 

Worst case for the Pens, they trade Murray for a big haul like Sam Bennett.  Then Bennett pans out with either Crosby and Malkin on LW and the Pens win two more Cups with MAF as their starter (he's showing no signs of slowing down).  Fleury at 32 could play until 36 or so like Lundqvist and still be as effective.

[The_People1]

23 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

You know what, that's true.   I didn't think of it that way.  These guys have families and kids. 

 

Not sure if MAF has wife and kids in Pits but he's been there his entire career.  Must at least have lots of friends.

 

It's been mentioned by others, why would he challenge himself to LV at this age where LV won't be Cup contenders for another 5 years at least?

 

If he stays in Pits or turns UFA via buyout, then he has much more desirable options for himself, including possibly staying in Pits and winning more Cups as their starter.

[jjgallow]

11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Not sure if MAF has wife and kids in Pits but he's been there his entire career.  Must at least have lots of friends.

 

 

Interestingly enough, he married his french high school sweetheart from Quebec (been together since they were 15 years old).

 

If it was a Quebec Nordique expansion this year instead of Las Vegas.....

[cross16]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Why wouldn't the pens jus trade him to the Flames for the 1st then and get more for Fleury? Is it because they don't want to lose someone else?

 

 

Correct. They don't want to lose someone else via expansion. Is gaining a first worth losing someone like Doumalin or Hornqvist? I would say no if I was the Pens but that's part of the decision they need to make. 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Only LV, Pits, and the Flames get what they want in this scenario.  Why would MAF subject himself to being passed around when he has full control of his own fate?   The only situation where MAF guarantees he wins is where he exercise his NMC and I would suspect that's the way he will go.  If he gets bought out, then he can find a new team and double dip payroll.  

 

In that situation, MAF may be okay coming to the Flames (or any team) for less money (since he is already getting paid by the Pens).  This would be a better win for MAF and his new team.  Screw the Pens since they don't want to honor his NMC.

 

And maybe that's the way it plays out. I don't believe it will but that is another potential scenario that could play out. 

 

The counter point to that that is the Pen could then trade him to a place he doesn't not want to go to as he only has a limited no trade. They'd have to acquire an exposable goalie but that likely isn't tough.  So I think it's the best interest if all parties to just work together but maybe I'm misguided on that being possible.  

 

But again lots of scenarios. Will be interesting.