Goaltending

[robrob74]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think you are listening too much to Vancouver media.

 

Miller is at best a one year placeholder.  That is betting 100% on Gillies being ready in one year to go from AHL goalie or NHL backup to starter.  Gillies has one year of pro experience.  If BT signed him and he was Hiller quality, he would be fired.

 

We are done with Bishop so let's call NY and tell them how good King Henrik was, and BTW would you like something to help you out of your expansion problems?

Kreider and Raanta for 1st rounder, McDonald and Shinkaruk.  Plus rights for Erixon.

 

 

 

That might not be a bad idea though. Have miller on a two year. He starts next year and then they play halfers the year later. 

 

Hahahaha!

i just read the 2nd paragraph. 

Awesome. 

 

I dont see miller being that that bad and I see him as better than Elliott. 

 

Although, having the revolving door of goalies isn't fun, so maybe we need a longer term fix on a four year deal. An old goalie doesn't really cut it and it's gambling, yet again, plus hoping a young one is ready in a year or two. 

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What I am saying is that not that many teams are in the market.  Many teams have goalies that could get claimed unless they are traded.  LV s probably only going to select 2 goalies at most, but a team exposing a good goalie is ripe.

 

I would like to be in on Raanta now, Grubauer when WASH is done, but am not limited to those.  

 

 

dont bet on it .. i think last time around each team chose 3, and only 1 actually played for that team.. they'll become brokers 

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

dont bet on it .. i think last time around each team chose 3, and only 1 actually played for that team.. they'll become brokers 

 

The last time was a bunch of has beens available.  This time they have no minor system and will get goalies that are likely waiver eligible.  Big problem trying to hold 3 goalies.

Maybe those rules are relaxed, but I doubt it.  

[phoenix66]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The last time was a bunch of has beens available.  This time they have no minor system and will get goalies that are likely waiver eligible.  Big problem trying to hold 3 goalies.

Maybe those rules are relaxed, but I doubt it.  

no they'l use them for assets.. id be willing to bet when they drop the puck on opening night less than half the players on the roster will have been selected from the expansion draft 

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

no they'l use them for assets.. id be willing to bet when they drop the puck on opening night less than half the players on the roster will have been selected from the expansion draft 

My bad.  They have to select 3 goalies.

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Oshie is going to get 6x$6m minimum on the market, especially now with the cap going up as much as $5m next year.

Why should everyone assume the increase in cap goes to the so called name players ? The middle line forwards and lower paired D have been held down for better level pay for years now. I don't think TJ Oshie is worth 6M but he should still be on the Flames target list all the same. We don't have a RHS-RW with the level of talent required in sight so considering a UFA such as Oshie makes all kinds of sense IMO.

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

no they'l use them for assets.. id be willing to bet when they drop the puck on opening night less than half the players on the roster will have been selected from the expansion draft 

So what happens with all these players that were selected, do they go back to their teams or go through waivers ?

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

It is not a terrible idea assuming we also have Elliott. I just wonder if perceptions will make this unlikely. That is, if the duo do not work out, then it makes Treliving look terrible. People will say "I told you so!" By contrast, if he signs a bigger name and they don't work out, then he can blame the team/coach for poor performance. It is a risky move for Treliving.

There really is no bigger name than Bishop out there. From here BT would be trading for another Goalie you HOPE would deliver a better result than what was here this season.

I honestly think Elliott coming back depends on what the feeling was for him by his teammates. He has the experience to be in our net and support this maturing process for a few more years. Would having Bishop deliver a SC in the next 2 years, I doubt it.

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, conundrumed said:

You're echoing my sentiment.

Do we EVER plan on linemates for Bennett?

A 1st line Rwer?

A 4th line?

A 4D?

But let's drop $6mil x 6 on a goalie because that will solve everything...

Getting or having the right 1st line RW may take some time yet.

Tkachuk, Bennett, Lazar would be something I would like to see next season.

Jankowski C'ing a 4th line is where I would start.

Stone would be fine as a 4th D.

[JTech780]

38 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Why should everyone assume the increase in cap goes to the so called name players ? The middle line forwards and lower paired D have been held down for better level pay for years now. I don't think TJ Oshie is worth 6M but he should still be on the Flames target list all the same. We don't have a RHS-RW with the level of talent required in sight so considering a UFA such as Oshie makes all kinds of sense IMO.

 

If after we resolve the holes at goaltending and defense, then sure let's take a run at Oshie. I just wouldn't sign to anything longer than 4 years and that's not going to get it done, if we signed him to 5+ years it would be a mistake.

[phoenix66]

So assuming the high likelihood Bishop is off the table (still not 100% convinced), Plan B is wide open..So where does BT go from here , knowing we need to upgrade and solidify the position even further .? If it were me, this would be my check down list

 

1) Fleury: Solid Vet , proven playoff performer , good mentor for whoever you put behind him -- added bonus, stellar record against Anaheim. 2 year term, ample time to groom the successor, if required can be resigned cheaper if more time is needed 

2) Robin Lehner : Awesome stats on a VERY bad team, RFA-- new GM coming in may not be as sold on him as Murray was, with a lot of picks, Buffalo could be the target for MAF too.. in which case we snap up Robin.. will likely be a 3-4 year deal to sign him though

3) Ryan Miller :  Don't Laugh..Was the only bright spot on that team last year , played amazing actually 1-2 Year deal - word is Vancouver wants him back , but if we get a shot at him he wont be as expensive anymore 

4) Brian Elliot: The devil you know . taking a step back, when he's on he's elite, and steals games. Great team guy.. just cant handle a load, not a definitive #1 needs to be used in a tandem .. The only way I see this as a win is if one of the below is put in place 

 

 

and just because I have heard more than once, due to possible cap reason (A la Tampa) they may decide to look at this 

 

5) Braden Holtby - needs no explanation , but he does have 4 more years at 6.1

 

 

There is literally no other likely available proven starter , that makes me think they are a solid upgrade to Elliot, and Im not prepared at this point to trust the #1 job to an unroven one 

 

Aside from Lehner, any of the above get a 2 year deal Max

 

The backup spot holds the Key..  While I like Johnson , he's the perfect backup , but not a load carrying #1. we need someone in this spot who has the ability to take the #1 spot away, carry a load if required and has high potential to be the #1 by the time our kids are ready to be backup. Most importantly some who you have no qualms about putting in the net if your #1 isn't doing the job .. I would target :

 

1) Antii Raanta:  He's ready , and if people have reservations about what he can do as a starter, thats why you put him in this spot.. He's only 1 year left at $1M, he literally took starts from King Henry this season 

2) Anders Nilsson: If Buffalo has no intent on trading Lehner, or even if they do..  he's also someone who played Great on a bad team , and another who has 1 year left at $1M

3) Joonas Korpisalo - I'll be honest , wasn't blown by away by him but everybody seems to think the kid has what it takes

4) Juuse Saros:  now THIS guy impressed me this season ..and only $692K for another season 

5) J F Berube:  Could be the best kept secret in the league..last 2 seasons NYI has kept 3 goalies so that they dont lose him on waivers, now they'll likely have to move him assuming they intend to protect Greiss

6) Phillip Grubauer: He is a bit lower on my list , just because he is an RFA and likely to be a expensive to sign as a backup  

 

I would be comfortable and consider the position upgraded , with any of these combos .. and it leaves you wide open to get our own kids up to the big team as soon as they show they are ready 

[redfire11]

25 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

4) Brian Elliot: The devil you know . taking a step back, when he's on he's elite, and steals games. Great team guy.. just cant handle a load, not a definitive #1 needs to be used in a tandem .. The only way I see this as a win is if one of the below is put in place 

 

 

 

1) Antii Raanta:  He's ready , and if people have reservations about what he can do as a starter, thats why you put him in this spot.. He's only 1 year left at $1M, he literally took starts from King Henry this season 

2) Anders Nilsson: If Buffalo has no intent on trading Lehner, or even if they do..  he's also someone who played Great on a bad team , and another who has 1 year left at $1M

 

I am warming up to this because it allows us to consider below.

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

 I don't think TJ Oshie is worth 6M but he should still be on the Flames target list all the same. We don't have a RHS-RW with the level of talent required in sight so considering a UFA such as Oshie makes all kinds of sense IMO.

Watching TJOshie reminds me of a better skilled Frolik. Not only would TJ help our offence but would in defense (back checking, smart defensive zone play) relieve pressure on our goaltending. We could afford him under the goalie situation above.

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

5) Braden Holtby - needs no explanation , but he does have 4 more years at 6.1

Has 3 years left.  Would be akin to trading for Price.  A unicorn trade.

 

The guys you listed as backups like Raanta and Grubauer should only be traded for to become a starter or 1b at the very least.

Otherwise, you risk not being able to re-sign them. Saros is exempt, so they have no reason to deal him.

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Has 3 years left.  Would be akin to trading for Price.  A unicorn trade.

 

The guys you listed as backups like Raanta and Grubauer should only be traded for to become a starter or 1b at the very least.

Otherwise, you risk not being able to re-sign them. Saros is exempt, so they have no reason to deal him.

oh exactly you bring them in to initially expect a platoon.. 35-40 games or so .. give them every opportunity to take the starter job , then if they can , your primary guy  is tradeable ..if they cant 't , by year 2 one of Rittich or Gillies should be ready to be a full time backup 

 

If i'm bringing back Elliot , Im bringing somebody who can legitimately take his job .. brings out the best in him too

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

oh exactly you bring them in to initially expect a platoon.. 35-40 games or so .. give them every opportunity to take the starter job , then if they can , your primary guy  is tradeable ..if they cant 't , by year 2 one of Rittich or Gillies should be ready to be a full time backup 

 

I'm confused then.  If you trade for MAF and sign Raanta, how do you manage to run that tandem?  If you go 1a/1b, MAF would demand a trade.  If you play Raanta as a backup, you would never sign him.  The only possible use of Raanta or Grubaer is if you signed Elliott to be a 1b.  Maybe that's all he deserves, but you have to think some team will make him a #1.

 

Buffalo isn't about to trade Lehner.  They may want to trade Niilson to avoid losing him for nothing.  

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

There really is no bigger name than Bishop out there. From here BT would be trading for another Goalie you HOPE would deliver a better result than what was here this season.

I honestly think Elliott coming back depends on what the feeling was for him by his teammates. He has the experience to be in our net and support this maturing process for a few more years. Would having Bishop deliver a SC in the next 2 years, I doubt it.

Bishop 's rights were traded to Dallas yesterday.

He has failed to stay healthy enough or deliver a SC to a strong Lightning team. Fleury has the rings to prove he is capable but his performance this season is not good enough.

[phoenix66]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm confused then.  If you trade for MAF and sign Raanta, how do you manage to run that tandem?  If you go 1a/1b, MAF would demand a trade.  If you play Raanta as a backup, you would never sign him.  The only possible use of Raanta or Grubaer is if you signed Elliott to be a 1b.  Maybe that's all he deserves, but you have to think some team will make him a #1.

 

Buffalo isn't about to trade Lehner.  They may want to trade Niilson to avoid losing him for nothing.  

 

 

i believe the biggest reason you're seeing a red hot fleury is because he had a lighter workload.. with Raanta he doesn't really have much of a choice, hes under contract , Im sure Fleury would be ok with 50-55 games, you can see what you have in Raanta by then , make your decision .. by then if you're willing to resign Raanta as a starter, and MAF demands a trade, then thats a good thing 

on the other hand if Fleury plays lights out , then you have what you want .. trade Raanta at the deadline or after the season for his rights and put your guy in place the next season 

 

also dont be so sure on Lehner, new GM.. new coach..  all cards are on the table, they may decide to go after Fleury themselves

[DirtyDeeds]

15 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

oh exactly you bring them in to initially expect a platoon.. 35-40 games or so .. give them every opportunity to take the starter job , then if they can , your primary guy  is tradeable ..if they cant 't , by year 2 one of Rittich or Gillies should be ready to be a full time backup 

 

If i'm bringing back Elliot , Im bringing somebody who can legitimately take his job .. brings out the best in him too

Just ask JJ. We have failed to develop a #1 or starting goalie now for what seems like many decades. Can't think of the last backup goalie we developed either. You can't count on any of our prospects to be ready in 2 years even if they have a ranking to one day be a starter.

 

Edit: thinking Curtis McElhinney is the last legit backup we drafted and developed.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

If after we resolve the holes at goaltending and defense, then sure let's take a run at Oshie. I just wouldn't sign to anything longer than 4 years and that's not going to get it done, if we signed him to 5+ years it would be a mistake.

I am at an offer of 5M x 5 years max or walk away. The holes will be resolved and I'm not sure these negotiations need to happen in any sequence. I'm sure BT and management have or will have a few Plan A, Plan B scenarios of where money will be spent.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

i believe the biggest reason you're seeing a red hot fleury is because he had a lighter workload.. with Raanta he doesn't really have much of a choice, hes under contract , Im sure Fleury would be ok with 50-55 games, you can see what you have in Raanta by then , make your decision .. by then if you're willing to resign Raanta as a starter, and MAF demands a trade, then thats a good thing 

on the other hand if Fleury plays lights out , then you have what you want .. trade Raanta at the deadline or after the season for his rights and put your guy in place the next season 

 

PITTS will only trade MAF prior to the expansion draft.  The same is true for Raanta.  You trade assets for two goalies and lose one to LV almost certainly.  I don't have a problem with either, but you can only pick one.  

 

As stated elsewhere, I'm not the biggest MAF fan, and his playoff run will inflate his value in PITTS's mind.  But, if you go that route, you need to look for a backup after the expansion.  

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Just ask JJ. We have failed to develop a #1 or starting goalie now for what seems like many decades. Can't think of the last backup goalie we developed either. You can't count on any of our prospects to be ready in 2 years even if they have a ranking to one day be a starter.

 

Edit: thinking Curtis McElhinney is the last legit backup we drafted and developed.

Exactly , thats why you go this route.. covers all the bases.. out of the 2 you put in place, at least one will end up filing the gap to that time whether it be fast or delayed 

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I am at an offer of 5M x 5 years max or walk away. The holes will be resolved and I'm not sure these negotiations need to happen in any sequence. I'm sure BT and management have or will have a few Plan A, Plan B scenarios of where money will be spent.

 

I just would hate to see a scenario where we signed Oshie and then didn't have the money to properly address the holes at goaltending and defense and then have to settle for lesser options.

[JTech780]

The prudent path is to plan with the idea that Gillies and Parsons won't turn out, and adjust when they do. 

 

I think worrying about taking a goalie with term because of your prospects is a bad way to go.

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

The prudent path is to plan with the idea that Gillies and Parsons won't turn out, and adjust when they do. 

 

I think worrying about taking a goalie with term because of your prospects is a bad way to go.

absolutely agree , nobody is holding them a spot.. I was all on board with Bishop at 6x6

but theres a difference between holding them a spot and slamming the door on them..

in the case of Elliot , I dont trust him as the guy unless there's someone who can take his job ..im not wiling as well to hand the reins to an unproven at this juncture, .. at the end of the day Gilies and Parsons and Rittich need to win the jobs and we can worry about making room at that time 

The suggestion I put forth , leaves all your options open .. the right combo next year and you virtually guarantee your goaltending is not an issue for years to come

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Just ask JJ. We have failed to develop a #1 or starting goalie now for what seems like many decades. Can't think of the last backup goalie we developed either. You can't count on any of our prospects to be ready in 2 years even if they have a ranking to one day be a starter.

 

Edit: thinking Curtis McElhinney is the last legit backup we drafted and developed.

I think you either strike gold with goaltenders or you don't. This is from a talent standpoint and performances when needed the most. Just look at all this conversation and as far as I'm concerned you could flip a coin with all the names being thrown around. I don't see the next Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy, Grant Fuhr or Carey Price in our system or in all these names.

I'm going with Elliott for 2more years and trade Stajan or Bouma to CAR for Eddie Lack.