Goaltending

[travel_dude]

Not calling the guy a savior or anything but we'd atleast have another internal option. Much cheaper then trading assets or picks for a starting goalie. It is only 2 games but he played solid in front of a horrid Oiler D at that

 

How is a guy that played exactly 2 games in the NHL any better than Ortio's recent starts against BOS, NYI or LA?  He only allowed 2 GA in each of those starts.  He may end up being the Oilers backup for the next few years, but may never be a starter.  

[tmac70]

For those who think Ortio is our answer in net, step away from the kool aid. We have no goalies, period that are bona fide #1. We have no idea what Gillies is or MacDonald they could develop into backups or busts.

 

There are very few choices in the UFA pool. with Reimer as possibly the best option. If we do go after a RFA it will cost a larger amount as we are in a position of desperation and other GM's will take advantage of that.

 

The inherited issue of not having goalies has always been a concern for this team. They don't draft well in this position and certainly do not develop well, there is no simply or short term solution that makes us contenders anytime soon.

[travel_dude]

Hiller in nets tonight.  Tank versus tank?  Actually unintentional tank (bad coaching decision) vs tank.

[darth_henning]

Well, the more we play Hiller the more it does seem like intent to tank. 

 

Ortio hasn't been the reason for any of our losses. No, he didn't save us against Ottawa, but at this point I'm not really upset. Ortio deserves a job next year, And if Hiller gets us that 1RW in the draft we need, then we have one less hole to worry about. 

 

 

So ..... at this point I'm good either way. a

[kehatch]

The only justification to not play Ortio tonight is if he is unavailable due to illness, injury, or because they have to send him down / recall him due to the Backstrom trade.  

 

I will hold judgement until we know what is what.    

 

EDIT: Looks like that isn't the case as Ortio is the back-up according to morning skate.  This really irks me.  Ortio has played better in 3 of his last 4 starts then Hiller has most of the season.  Plus the Flames need to play him to see what they have in him.  Playing Hiller right now makes less then no sense.  Shame on Hartley.  

[kehatch]

From respected Flames writer Darren Haynes: 

 

https://twitter.com/DarrenWHaynes/status/705436546430668800 

 

Below is my carefully compiled, unabridged list of legitimately good reasons for the #Flames to play Jonas Hiller at this point:

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

[darth_henning]

The only justification to not play Ortio tonight is if he is unavailable due to illness, injury, or because they have to send him down / recall him due to the Backstrom trade.  

 

I will hold judgement until we know what is what.    

 

EDIT: Looks like that isn't the case as Ortio is the back-up according to morning skate.  This really irks me.  Ortio has played better in 3 of his last 4 starts then Hiller has most of the season.  Plus the Flames need to play him to see what they have in him.  Playing Hiller right now makes less then no sense.  Shame on Hartley.  

 

He's also playing Colborne in the top 6 with Monahan and Ferland on a line. 

 

I think we're looking at intentional tank. Or Hartley with early onset dementia. 

[travel_dude]

The only justification to not play Ortio tonight is if he is unavailable due to illness, injury, or because they have to send him down / recall him due to the Backstrom trade.  

 

I will hold judgement until we know what is what.    

 

EDIT: Looks like that isn't the case as Ortio is the back-up according to morning skate.  This really irks me.  Ortio has played better in 3 of his last 4 starts then Hiller has most of the season.  Plus the Flames need to play him to see what they have in him.  Playing Hiller right now makes less then no sense.  Shame on Hartley.  

 

There seems to be a disconnect between BT and BH.  There is no reason to play Hiller.  He is not going to get more wins, nor does he provide the stability the teams needs to try to win.  If there's a disconnect, then it's time for Hartley to move on.  We need a coach that understands the latter part of a rebuild.

[kehatch]

Hartley says he is playing to a preset schedule now so all goalies get time.  Which is ridiculous and completely inconsistent.  Consciously or unconsciously he has found reasons not to play Ortio all season.  Either its a schedule, or he only is playing two goalies, or another goalie has played well, or whatever.  Its always a different and completely inconsistent and always in favor of his guys.  

 

I don't want Hartley back next season.  

[redfire11]

Hartley says he is playing to a preset schedule now so all goalies get time.  Which is ridiculous and completely inconsistent.  Consciously or unconsciously he has found reasons not to play Ortio all season.  Either its a schedule, or he only is playing two goalies, or another goalie has played well, or whatever.  Its always a different and completely inconsistent and always in favor of his guys.  

 

I don't want Hartley back next season.  

Just one of a number of reasons we should be in the coach market.

[Carty]

From coach of the year, to the coach who's decisions we fear...   Shame on you Bob...

 

       

 

Between this and a number of sketchy decisions on lines, lineups, bottom of the league special teams,  and numerous other occasions of questionable goaltender choices, etc etc...   I've about seen enough of Hartley...

 

Hartley has had a 4 year shelf life with his two previous NHL teams before he was fired, and this is his 4th season here...

 

I hope that Burke and Treliving are already looking for the Flames next coach...

[FlamesLogic]

Everyone was singing bobs praises last year when the goaltending was over performing. OLD BOB SURE KNOWS HOW TO PICK WHICH ONE TO ROLL WITH everyone said. 

With a lost season its very likely that Bob sat down with the guys (who all want to play) and set out a schedule. Either a Win and you stay, lose we change type rule or a you get X games you get Y games type rule. Setting expectations with goalies at this time of year with this season situation helps to fend off frustration and lets them focus on being better goaltenders rather than trying to figure out why they arent playing. 

Organizationally we can all see Ortio is the only one likely to be with the team next year but I dont think it necessarily does him any favours to hand him the job and say we suck so you get to play all the games. It also doesnt hurt to let him watch another veteran goalie first hand from time to time at the NHL level. AND with the likely scenario of Ortio being the backup next year it is good practice for him to keep himself ready knowing hes not playing for X games. Learn how do I keep myself NHL ready sitting X games.

That said, Ive actually thought Ortio has played well in the recent loses and the cynical side of me thinks the best way to combat a crap tanking team in buffalo is to put the worse goalie in net. Its more likely the scenarios above however. 

[MAC331]

Everyone was singing bobs praises last year when the goaltending was over performing. OLD BOB SURE KNOWS HOW TO PICK WHICH ONE TO ROLL WITH everyone said. 

With a lost season its very likely that Bob sat down with the guys (who all want to play) and set out a schedule. Either a Win and you stay, lose we change type rule or a you get X games you get Y games type rule. Setting expectations with goalies at this time of year with this season situation helps to fend off frustration and lets them focus on being better goaltenders rather than trying to figure out why they arent playing. 

Organizationally we can all see Ortio is the only one likely to be with the team next year but I dont think it necessarily does him any favours to hand him the job and say we suck so you get to play all the games. It also doesnt hurt to let him watch another veteran goalie first hand from time to time at the NHL level. AND with the likely scenario of Ortio being the backup next year it is good practice for him to keep himself ready knowing hes not playing for X games. Learn how do I keep myself NHL ready sitting X games.

That said, Ive actually thought Ortio has played well in the recent loses and the cynical side of me thinks the best way to combat a crap tanking team in buffalo is to put the worse goalie in net. Its more likely the scenarios above however. 

I think your last paragraph has it right. LOL

[Carty]

It also doesnt hurt to let him watch another veteran goalie first hand from time to time at the NHL level..

 

So that Ortio can observe a goalie with an obsolete blocker style combined with several bad habits and see exactly how NOT to be a successful goalie...  

[AlbertaBoy12]

I think BH got lucky last year and this year is just the results of the same mistakes. I hope BH is gone this summer and the team moves forward with someone else. I don't see why he's rolling with hiller, Ortio has been good for the most part in his games recently except the meltdown in Ottawa. The only difference being Ortio is a young goalie and hiller is a veteran.

[cross16]

As most know I'm not Bob Hartley's biggest fan but I think people need to relax about Ortio. Ortio can't start every game and people do realize that Ortio has not been a full time starter at any level this year right? He didn't hold the net in Stockton either, so I'm not sure I agree with people that are saying Ortio should start every game the rest of the year. I don't think you are doing a goalie a favor but jacking up his playing time 1000% at the end of the season.

 

I think people are forgetting there is 19 games left this season, not 5 or 6. Hartley has shown he wants to start Ortio has publically proclaimed he has been happy with Ortio so i'm not realy seeing a reason to believe that Ortio won't see plenty of games down the stretch. But I fail to see who suddenly asking Ortio to play every game is going to help the Flames or Ortio when he hasn't done it all year. 

[kehatch]

I am annoyed enough that I did a full break down.  Here is is.  

 

 

Rotation/Schedule: Hartley doesn't like three goalies.  From his perspective he only had two goalies.  So no starts for Otrio. But neither of the two were stepping it up so he went with a rotation.  

 

 

No idea what the plan is: The decision was taken out of Hartley's hands.  Ramo was demoted and they were down to two goalies.  Ortio was limited to one start at the second half of the back to back.  

 

 

 

Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hiller gets hurt so Ramo gets the call back.  Ramo gets to play to "get him going".  Ortio sits for 12-games despite Ramo being pretty mediocre. 

 

 

Merit: Hiller comes back so Ortio is finally waived. Starts are mostly based on merit.  

 

 

 

Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hartley says he wants to give Hiller the same opportunity that Ramo got so he gets a string of starts.  

 

 

Rotation/Schedule: Apparently there is a predetermined rotation again.  At least until one of Hartley's guys has a decent start or he just changes his mind again.  

 

This has been an incredibly inconsistent set of decisions by the coach.  And every time Ortio is in a position to get some starts he changes the method to something that prevents him from getting starts.  First he won't play three goalies.  Then Ramo gets his string of starts.  Then Hiller gets his string of starts.  Now its a "schedule" again.  Considering he is the only goalie with some future upside that makes no sense on a rebuilding team!!!!

 

The coach is out of touch and has developed a preference for his guys.  Time to move on.  

[phoenix66]

I'll start by saying I'm also a big Hartley fan, and I'm not demanding he lose his job,  but I will say that he does definitely get a favorite in his head and rolls with it .

He was a Big Reto Berra fan ,and was determined to run with him.. aside from the offer we couldn't refuse of a 2nd round pick, i'm sure that played into Burke's decision to get rid of him. There's the insistence of not giving Hamilton more playing time,  now its the Love for Hiller. and not just now, the only reason Ramo came back from the AHL was due to  a Hiller injury and then Ramo gave him no choice but to keep playing him.. again ., Over ortio

Don't know if there is a connection between Hiller and Berra both being Swiss and BH having coached in Switzerland but.. its an odd fascination 

 

While there is a separation in roles, I'm sure BT has already spelled out what he needs for games from Ortio and what he needs to see from Backstrom, so overall I'm not worried.. but yes, he does stubbornly play favorites..  that or he holds a grudge , and Ortio upset him at some point , possibly the bad practices they talked about .  It will be his undoing if that's indeed an issue

[MAC331]

I am annoyed enough that I did a full break down.  Here is is.  

 

 

Rotation/Schedule: Hartley doesn't like three goalies.  From his perspective he only had two goalies.  So no starts for Otrio. But neither of the two were stepping it up so he went with a rotation.  

 

 

No idea what the plan is: The decision was taken out of Hartley's hands.  Ramo was demoted and they were down to two goalies.  Ortio was limited to one start at the second half of the back to back.  

 

 

 

Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hiller gets hurt so Ramo gets the call back.  Ramo gets to play to "get him going".  Ortio sits for 12-games despite Ramo being pretty mediocre. 

 

 

Merit: Hiller comes back so Ortio is finally waived. Starts are mostly based on merit.  

 

 

 

Ramo starts (Win/Lose/Draw): Hartley says he wants to give Hiller the same opportunity that Ramo got so he gets a string of starts.  

 

 

Rotation/Schedule: Apparently there is a predetermined rotation again.  At least until one of Hartley's guys has a decent start or he just changes his mind again.  

 

This has been an incredibly inconsistent set of decisions by the coach.  And every time Ortio is in a position to get some starts he changes the method to something that prevents him from getting starts.  First he won't play three goalies.  Then Ramo gets his string of starts.  Then Hiller gets his string of starts.  Now its a "schedule" again.  Considering he is the only goalie with some future upside that makes no sense on a rebuilding team!!!!

 

The coach is out of touch and has developed a preference for his guys.  Time to move on.  

You need to RELAX

As most know I'm not Bob Hartley's biggest fan but I think people need to relax about Ortio. Ortio can't start every game and people do realize that Ortio has not been a full time starter at any level this year right? He didn't hold the net in Stockton either, so I'm not sure I agree with people that are saying Ortio should start every game the rest of the year. I don't think you are doing a goalie a favor but jacking up his playing time 1000% at the end of the season.

 

I think people are forgetting there is 19 games left this season, not 5 or 6. Hartley has shown he wants to start Ortio has publically proclaimed he has been happy with Ortio so i'm not realy seeing a reason to believe that Ortio won't see plenty of games down the stretch. But I fail to see who suddenly asking Ortio to play every game is going to help the Flames or Ortio when he hasn't done it all year. 

I agree, to much about nothing now. Let Ortio get enough games in to keep him around for next year if an option. Otherwise play it out and see where we finish with our draft positioning.

[Carty]

As most know I'm not Bob Hartley's biggest fan but I think people need to relax about Ortio. Ortio can't start every game and people do realize that Ortio has not been a full time starter at any level this year right? He didn't hold the net in Stockton either, so I'm not sure I agree with people that are saying Ortio should start every game the rest of the year. I don't think you are doing a goalie a favor but jacking up his playing time 1000% at the end of the season.

 

I think people are forgetting there is 19 games left this season, not 5 or 6. Hartley has shown he wants to start Ortio has publically proclaimed he has been happy with Ortio so i'm not realy seeing a reason to believe that Ortio won't see plenty of games down the stretch. But I fail to see who suddenly asking Ortio to play every game is going to help the Flames or Ortio when he hasn't done it all year. 

 

If you asked Ortio if he would rather play tonight, I know what his answer would be...   You say you can't see how it would help him or the Flames to play him, I say that I can't see how it could/would hurt either one...

 

Doing this will just mess with Ortio's head, it will not benefit him in the least...

 

Not starting Ortio tonight might make more sense if there was a better option than Hiller, but all we have is an unknown in Backstrom...

 

That said, I would rather see (hasn't played in over a year and is 38) Backstrom in the net, and I have some serious doubts about his current abilities, but we all know what Hiller can't do by now...   and so should Hartley...

[kehatch]

 

As most know I'm not Bob Hartley's biggest fan but I think people need to relax about Ortio. Ortio can't start every game and people do realize that Ortio has not been a full time starter at any level this year right? He didn't hold the net in Stockton either, so I'm not sure I agree with people that are saying Ortio should start every game the rest of the year. I don't think you are doing a goalie a favor but jacking up his playing time 1000% at the end of the season.

 

I think people are forgetting there is 19 games left this season, not 5 or 6. Hartley has shown he wants to start Ortio has publically proclaimed he has been happy with Ortio so i'm not realy seeing a reason to believe that Ortio won't see plenty of games down the stretch. But I fail to see who suddenly asking Ortio to play every game is going to help the Flames or Ortio when he hasn't done it all year. 

 

Nobody is suggesting he plays every game.  I am certainly not.  But show me one time this season a goalie has come off of a 920 game and not started the next game when it wasn't a back to back (barring when Ramo got sick).  There is zero reason to start Hiller over Ortio tonight.  This "we have a schedule" is just another BS answer.  

 

The fact that so many people are upset (media, social media, forums everywhere) about a decision to not start a mediocre goalie just shows you how inexplicable it is.  Even the very objective media types like Steinberg and Haynes are at a loss to explain this decision. Given Hartley's ongoing string of odd decisions (that rarely get results) its tough to defend him on this one.  

[cross16]

 

 

 

Nobody is suggesting he plays every game.  I am certainly not.  But show me one time this season a goalie has come off of a 920 game and not started the next game when it wasn't a back to back (barring when Ramo got sick).  There is zero reason to start Hiller over Ortio tonight.  This "we have a schedule" is just another BS answer.  

 

 

Diffrent teams and different times though.  Flames are in next year mode now, they will never admit but thats where they are. They promised they would give Backstorm a few games and I think they still owe HIller a game or two and maybe you let him get a contract elsewhere. So they have 3 goalies they need to play at least some time over the next 19 games so they have a game tonight against one of the worst teams int he NHL so they are starting, IMO at least, their worst goalie. I don't see it as an illogical decision.

 

I know some people will say the heck with Hiller and let him rot on the bench and based on his play that's fine. however, when wins are no longer really an object I think the organization could still help him set himself up for next year and personally I find value in that. Treat your players the best you can and run a first class organization and it will pay off.

 

My point is everyone is on a game by game panic warning whenever Ortio doesn't start and I think there is a bigger picture here. If Ortio doesn't start at least half of the remaining 19 games I will join the pitchfork line, but so far I don't have any indication that that won't happen. 

[kehatch]

Diffrent teams and different times though.  Flames are in next year mode now, they will never admit but thats where they are. They promised they would give Backstorm a few games and I think they still owe HIller a game or two and maybe you let him get a contract elsewhere. So they have 3 goalies they need to play at least some time over the next 19 games so they have a game tonight against one of the worst teams int he NHL so they are starting, IMO at least, their worst goalie. I don't see it as an illogical decision.

 

I know some people will say the heck with Hiller and let him rot on the bench and based on his play that's fine. however, when wins are no longer really an object I think the organization could still help him set himself up for next year and personally I find value in that. Treat your players the best you can and run a first class organization and it will pay off.

 

My point is everyone is on a game by game panic warning whenever Ortio doesn't start and I think there is a bigger picture here. If Ortio doesn't start at least half of the remaining 19 games I will join the pitchfork line, but so far I don't have any indication that that won't happen. 

 

If we are in next year mode (and I agree we are) then you give Ortio a start after a good game.  You give Hiller / Backs a start after Ortio has a bad game.  Failing to reward the kid after a strong start is really poor development however you try and rationalize it.  

[travel_dude]

Diffrent teams and different times though.  Flames are in next year mode now, they will never admit but thats where they are. They promised they would give Backstorm a few games and I think they still owe HIller a game or two and maybe you let him get a contract elsewhere. So they have 3 goalies they need to play at least some time over the next 19 games so they have a game tonight against one of the worst teams int he NHL so they are starting, IMO at least, their worst goalie. I don't see it as an illogical decision.

 

I know some people will say the heck with Hiller and let him rot on the bench and based on his play that's fine. however, when wins are no longer really an object I think the organization could still help him set himself up for next year and personally I find value in that. Treat your players the best you can and run a first class organization and it will pay off.

 

My point is everyone is on a game by game panic warning whenever Ortio doesn't start and I think there is a bigger picture here. If Ortio doesn't start at least half of the remaining 19 games I will join the pitchfork line, but so far I don't have any indication that that won't happen. 

 

I would say they gave Hiller every possible opportunity to get a job for next year.  They even tried to get him a tryout somewhere else as a TDL rental.  That ship has sailed.  Sure, give him a start.  But the question comes to mind, why not give the young guy a chance against "one of the worst teams int he NHL".  Surely giving him the chance to actually get a win might help his development.  Instead, you start him in the 2nd night of a B2B and expect him to carry the mail.  

[MAC331]

If we are in next year mode (and I agree we are) then you give Ortio a start after a good game.  You give Hiller / Backs a start after Ortio has a bad game.  Failing to reward the kid after a strong start is really poor development however you try and rationalize it.  

but Ortio might beat a team like BUF, just saying