jjgallow Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 18 hours ago, travel_dude said: Are we up or down? The three best goalies IMHO are Helly, Shesty, and Vasy. Not this year, just in general. Each one of them 30/31, 28 and 29/30. Only Shesty has a short career in NA so far. The rest are already 9+ years in. Helly is signed for another 7 years. My point is we don't need one of them, we need the next thing. We have a couple guys that could make the jump at the same time we get good. Or we sell a F for a good up and comer. Just saying that the sequence isn't always build from the net out. The tendency is to get a solid guy that can give you 3 years. That's building from the net out, but not a great idea. Having a stable of goalies that might not be ready while you plan the D may not work either. Mind the G, build the D, find the F. I believe that having consistent high calibre goaltending facilitates better development of defenceman, who in turn facilitates better development of forwards. I think chemistry plays a role in development. Many, many reasons why I'm a fan of building from the net out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 9 minutes ago, jjgallow said: I believe that having consistent high calibre goaltending facilitates better development of defenceman, who in turn facilitates better development of forwards. I think chemistry plays a role in development. Many, many reasons why I'm a fan of building from the net out So, what happened here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 59 minutes ago, jjgallow said: I believe that having consistent high calibre goaltending facilitates better development of defenceman, who in turn facilitates better development of forwards. I think chemistry plays a role in development. Many, many reasons why I'm a fan of building from the net out Interesting. It's kind of a chicken or the egg thing too. Do Goalies make D look good or do D make goalies look good? But young D with a young goalie can pay off in the long run if they develop chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 13 minutes ago, The_People1 said: Interesting. It's kind of a chicken or the egg thing too. Do Goalies make D look good or do D make goalies look good? But young D with a young goalie can pay off in the long run if they develop chemistry. And we have an old G and an old D that work together. We have a young G and some young D (on the farm + Kylington). And a few young G developing elsewhere. We are on the road to turfing our starter. That's fine. We would need to at some point anyway. We may still end up building out from the G, but we have already begun on the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 If Markstrom is traded to NJ and Vanecek is part of the return, it might make sense to roll with Vanecek and Vladar. I think it’s time to see what Wolf can do, but I think I would push that until next season. I think things are going to get pretty ugly down the stretch. They’ve just got blown out by SJ and DET on home ice and that’s before making the three big trades that are expected. I just don’t know if throwing Wolf out there with an AHL blueline is the best thing. It also helps decide which goalie you want to pair with Wolf. I would buy the odd man out this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said: If Markstrom is traded to NJ and Vanecek is part of the return, it might make sense to roll with Vanecek and Vladar. I think it’s time to see what Wolf can do, but I think I would push that until next season. I think things are going to get pretty ugly down the stretch. They’ve just got blown out by SJ and DET on home ice and that’s before making the three big trades that are expected. I just don’t know if throwing Wolf out there with an AHL blueline is the best thing. It also helps decide which goalie you want to pair with Wolf. I would buy the odd man out this summer. Agreed. I don't think we want to throw Wolf to the wolves. Just let this season tank and keep Wolf with the Wranglers the rest of the season. No need to get him shelled with weak D at the NHL level. Sign a vet D or two this summer and then bring Wolf up full time to backup Vanecek. Let's make the trade happen first though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 a random thought related to building out from G, Yegor Yegorev is looking like a pretty decent snag for where he was snagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, jjgallow said: a random thought related to building out from G, Yegor Yegorev is looking like a pretty decent snag for where he was snagged. Even with the 5-6 w/l record Sergeev has decent stats of .921 and 2.45 GAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 7 hours ago, travel_dude said: Even with the 5-6 w/l record Sergeev has decent stats of .921 and 2.45 GAA Sergeev's good too yeah But Yegor, .932 with time on his side, he wouldn't be a 6th round pick in a redraft. Can't expect much more than that in terms of 1 year trajectory improvement. If he keeps that trajectory up he'll be one of our top prospects next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 15 hours ago, The_People1 said: Interesting. It's kind of a chicken or the egg thing too. Do Goalies make D look good or do D make goalies look good? But young D with a young goalie can pay off in the long run if they develop chemistry. It starts in goal for me too.. a g definitely needs chemistry with d to hit the next level but a good goalie can also hide a lot of mistakes while that's happening.. kipper did it for years.(it's also why TDL deals for goalies usually backfire ..no time ).. Once your d and golaie are all on the same page that buys a cushion for your forwards to start scoring ..play looser Nd not be afraid to make mistakes .. once all 3 are on the same page ..now you're a playoff team ... The quality of those pieces then determines if you're a contender or not But when mistakes at any of the 3 levels keep ending up in your net.. you crash the whole pyramid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 15 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said: If Markstrom is traded to NJ and Vanecek is part of the return, it might make sense to roll with Vanecek and Vladar. I think it’s time to see what Wolf can do, but I think I would push that until next season. I think things are going to get pretty ugly down the stretch. They’ve just got blown out by SJ and DET on home ice and that’s before making the three big trades that are expected. I just don’t know if throwing Wolf out there with an AHL blueline is the best thing. It also helps decide which goalie you want to pair with Wolf. I would buy the odd man out this summer. I'm resigned now to the fact that Marky is going..Be it at the deadline or offseason... That being said .. the best thing that could happen if we get eliminated early.. give him a run.. get shelled ? You're going back in after watching tape and working with the coach... Repeat .. As much as he got hung out to dry in that San Jose game he himself was also in bad positon on at least 3 of those goals ..shots come faster with more accuracy .. he needs to experience it and adjust with no pressure.. I believe it will come ..what we mainly saw in that game is he's not ready.. he went back down and stonewalled another ahl team so it's apparent he needs to be up here ..and grow from his mistakes to move ahead . A games are no longer progress anything except his confidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Great goaltending can hide a lot of deficiencies but can only win you cups if the rest of the team is developed. Price was wasted in Montreal. Gibson is wasted in Anaheim. Hellibuck is a bit wasted in Winnipeg but at least is a bit better situated compared to the other examples. Montreal showed what elite D does with elite goaltending, albeit in a weird year, but Weber, even a shell of his former self helped a lot... but without elite D I think the goalie can only do so much. Look at Detroit with good goalies winning all those cups. for me, we need to concentrate on elite D. Goaltending can depend on everything else. If the team bleeds too many chances, the goalies are gonna let in some goals. not saying bad goalies are better to shoot for, just that elite d is still needed as even elite goaltending can look average to good without elite D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 6 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Great goaltending can hide a lot of deficiencies but can only win you cups if the rest of the team is developed. Price was wasted in Montreal. Gibson is wasted in Anaheim. Hellibuck is a bit wasted in Winnipeg but at least is a bit better situated compared to the other examples. Montreal showed what elite D does with elite goaltending, albeit in a weird year, but Weber, even a shell of his former self helped a lot... but without elite D I think the goalie can only do so much. Look at Detroit with good goalies winning all those cups. for me, we need to concentrate on elite D. Goaltending can depend on everything else. If the team bleeds too many chances, the goalies are gonna let in some goals. not saying bad goalies are better to shoot for, just that elite d is still needed as even elite goaltending can look average to good without elite D. It's true.. any elite area can hide deficiencies in the other .. the last few cup winners like Colorado etc.. have done it with Meh tending ..but they have elite d and forwards.. Edmonton made it to the WCF with elite forward and Talbot playing great .. but crappy D .. last year their d was improved but the goaltending let them down .. on any given night one has to bail out the other .. but all 3 levels need to be capable of it .. When push comes to shove this year in the playoffs Skinner will be edmontons downfall And as a side note , Osgood was not very good for Detroit ... But they won because of everything else .. when they had Hasek and Vernon..that was a cheat code 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 18 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: It's true.. any elite area can hide deficiencies in the other .. the last few cup winners like Colorado etc.. have done it with Meh tending ..but they have elite d and forwards.. Edmonton made it to the WCF with elite forward and Talbot playing great .. but crappy D .. last year their d was improved but the goaltending let them down .. on any given night one has to bail out the other .. but all 3 levels need to be capable of it .. When push comes to shove this year in the playoffs Skinner will be edmontons downfall And as a side note , Osgood was not very good for Detroit ... But they won because of everything else .. when they had Hasek and Vernon..that was a cheat code https://detroit.sbnation.com/platform/amp/detroit-red-wings/2011/7/19/2283574/cue-the-chris-osgood-hate i don't think people give him enough cred... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 9 minutes ago, robrob74 said: https://detroit.sbnation.com/platform/amp/detroit-red-wings/2011/7/19/2283574/cue-the-chris-osgood-hate i don't think people give him enough cred... This article literally makes the argument he's a mid -sklled goaltender ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 21 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: This article literally makes the argument he's a mid -sklled goaltender ... the argument is more he is more than you say he was... you are literal saying exactly what that article is saying. "If you mention the words Hall of Fame and Osgood within five seconds of each other you'll get at least three Osgood haters on your case immediately. They can smell it when somebody tries using 'statistics' and 'logic' to make a case for Osgood. Frankly, it's a little old. It feels like we have been having this conversation for the last decade, filled with arguments that mostly attack him for playing on a good team. Never mind that great goaltenders like Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur played on some." in 08 they don't go as far as they did without him. They say Zetterberg stole his Conn smythe that year and in the playoffs apparently posted a .930 and 1.55, needing to take over for Hasek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, robrob74 said: the argument is more he is more than you say he was... you are literal saying exactly what that article is saying. "If you mention the words Hall of Fame and Osgood within five seconds of each other you'll get at least three Osgood haters on your case immediately. They can smell it when somebody tries using 'statistics' and 'logic' to make a case for Osgood. Frankly, it's a little old. It feels like we have been having this conversation for the last decade, filled with arguments that mostly attack him for playing on a good team. Never mind that great goaltenders like Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur played on some." in 08 they don't go as far as they did without him. They say Zetterberg stole his Conn smythe that year and in the playoffs apparently posted a .930 and 1.55, needing to take over for Hasek. Osgood deserves credit, but I don't put him in the same class as Ward to the '06 Canes, Fleury to the '09 Pens, Thomas to the '11 Bruins. In the finals Osgood faced 80 less shots than Fleury, 60 less than Turco in the West finals, almost 50 less in a 4 game sweep of Colorado, and half the Wings 16 playoff wins were by 3 goals or more. When your that stacked of a team all you need to ask is that he doesn't lose the game, which of course a bad goalie can still do that even on that team but he doesn't deserve the same credit as Zetterberg, Datsyuk or Lidstrom for that team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 38 minutes ago, sak22 said: Osgood deserves credit, but I don't put him in the same class as Ward to the '06 Canes, Fleury to the '09 Pens, Thomas to the '11 Bruins. In the finals Osgood faced 80 less shots than Fleury, 60 less than Turco in the West finals, almost 50 less in a 4 game sweep of Colorado, and half the Wings 16 playoff wins were by 3 goals or more. When your that stacked of a team all you need to ask is that he doesn't lose the game, which of course a bad goalie can still do that even on that team but he doesn't deserve the same credit as Zetterberg, Datsyuk or Lidstrom for that team. yet Hasek was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 20 minutes ago, robrob74 said: yet Hasek was. Not in the Conne Smythe sense, but in '02 when they won with Hasek the question is why did they go out and get Hasek in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Yet you dismiss the fact he has 1.55 and a .930? "Good team" but many still credit Roy or Brodeur? I'm not saying he is their level, but it's just silly to be saying well it's this way for some but when another does.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 The only way you can definitively know how good a goalie is, is by forcing them to play for the Oilers for a year. But that's a blatant human rights violation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, robrob74 said: Yet you dismiss the fact he has 1.55 and a .930? "Good team" but many still credit Roy or Brodeur? I'm not saying he is their level, but it's just silly to be saying well it's this way for some but when another does.... I'm not the type of guy to give a goalie a star of the game on a 5-1 win where the team only gave up 20 shots the stats are nice, but its also telling that you would've needed the goalie to play abysmal to lose. Roy had a run in Montreal where he won like 10 straight overtime games, also don't think Quebec had much success prior to Roy so there's that. Brodeur won 2 cups with pretty average offenses, the margin for error is much lower. Sure great stats, just not an all-time goaltending performance IMO, and .905 career for the era he played is not comparable with Roy and Brodeur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 Is Conroy wasting Markstrom's value by waiting, and possibly just as good or better goalies coming free on the market? https://www.tsn.ca/video/7-eleven-that-s-hockey-fantasy-or-reality-markstrom-isn-t-the-best-goalie-available~2871831 Link suggests Markstrom's value might be decreasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 17 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Is Conroy wasting Markstrom's value by waiting, and possibly just as good or better goalies coming free on the market? https://www.tsn.ca/video/7-eleven-that-s-hockey-fantasy-or-reality-markstrom-isn-t-the-best-goalie-available~2871831 Link suggests Markstrom's value might be decreasing. The two guys that provide scouting analysis and goalie analysis beg to differ. The only goalie there with a similar w/l record with a similar number of starts is Saros. The only goalies with a sub 3.0 GAA is Markstrom (2.64) The only goalie with a better than .905 SA% is Markstrom. If the cost was exactly the same, I would trade for Saros, but the size kills in the West. But the cost will be higer since Saros is younger. His next contract will be > $8M. MAF is old as dirt. Kahkonen is pending UFA. Saror has another year left. Allen has really only played well as a backup and best under STL. You have to be looking for a goalie for longer than a year to be interested in Markstrom. Unless you can open up the books for Saros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 36 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Is Conroy wasting Markstrom's value by waiting, and possibly just as good or better goalies coming free on the market? https://www.tsn.ca/video/7-eleven-that-s-hockey-fantasy-or-reality-markstrom-isn-t-the-best-goalie-available~2871831 Link suggests Markstrom's value might be decreasing. did you watch the video? I would if you haven't. Think you'd come to a different conclusion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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