Goaltending

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

We keep drafting goalies, just that they are later picks.

Other than a couple of guys that went early, this years crop was nothing to write home about.

Not enough games to get a good picture.

Parson, Gillies and MacDonald were misses, even if two of them were derailed by injury.

 

The Heat will have two goalies that will be splitting the games.

Werner is 24, so he will just be there to give more time to develop Wolf.

Maybe he shakes out as the best backup we could have.

Who knows.

Not a bad thing to have three goalies/prospects at 6'5" or bigger.

In fact, this is the first time I can think that we have more than one guy that isn't a retread or over the hill.

 

 

I don't disagree, it is more past issues that leaves me still skeptical than these recent moves  (although investing in goalies just a touch younger would have been prefered).

 

On paper, Werner can back up Wolf and we are good to go.

 

In reallity?  Well, we fired the last coach who made those calls, I see little point in arguing that past situations were handled well.    We'll see how it goes, I've got those fingers crossed.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't disagree, it is more past issues that leaves me still skeptical than these recent moves  (although investing in goalies just a touch younger would have been prefered).

 

On paper, Werner can back up Wolf and we are good to go.

 

In reallity?  Well, we fired the last coach who made those calls, I see little point in arguing that past situations were handled well.    We'll see how it goes, I've got those fingers crossed.

 

The head coach is a former junior coach.

I think he is fairly familiar with Wolf from coaching against him.

What happened in the past was based on what we had in the pipeline.

Last year was really bad for choices of who to play.

 

Letss face it, the AHL is development to get players ready for the NHL.

Wolf is young, so they should not be rushing him.

Having a guy at the "almost ready for primetime" age is fine.

Keep Wolf developing even if there is a callup situation.

Unless he totally blows the doors off the AHL.

Even then, you keep him in your pocket unless you absolutely think it's the right time.

 

[kehatch]

Two seasons ago we had a revolving door at the starter position with David Rittich as the only plan B (short or long term). We now have a legitimate proven starter that we know can handle the workload, and we have some legitimate potential in both the BU spot and in the AHL. 

 

I can't say Markstrom (and his contract) is the first goalie I would pick when scanning the 32 starting goalies, and I don't think we have a sure thing available if Markstrom goes down. But I do think BT has adequately addressed the position. 

[conundrumed]

14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

If Gillies was an isolated incident, we could say that. 

 

But the only homegrown goaltender talent from the Flames who are successful in the NHL, are the ones who left our system first.    IMHO at this point it is the Flames that need to prove they can develop goaltenders, not us who need to prove they can't.

But you alluded to the new hires interfering with Wolf's development.

Is it Flames development, or is it a struggle to find who might get far enough to be one of the world's top 75 goalies?

Only Nashville has truly been a goalie factory in this league. 

Most other teams have to buy a goalie.

This isn't isolated to, "the Flames don't know how to".

An 18yo goalie has already developed, the only hope is to see the attributes and hope that they continue to improve. But as they move up leagues, the game in front of them improves. A few can handle it, but most can't.

You can only scout a checklist, angles, puck-tracking, mobility, athleticism, rebound control and attitude.

Not really fair to blame the system when most goalies either improve little or can't adjust to a faster, harder game.

That's more on the individual.

Why whine about Brossoit? It's not like he's great, he's an average backup.

[kehatch]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

But you alluded to the new hires interfering with Wolf's development.

Is it Flames development, or is it a struggle to find who might get far enough to be one of the world's top 75 goalies?

Only Nashville has truly been a goalie factory in this league. 

Most other teams have to buy a goalie.

This isn't isolated to, "the Flames don't know how to".

An 18yo goalie has already developed, the only hope is to see the attributes and hope that they continue to improve. But as they move up leagues, the game in front of them improves. A few can handle it, but most can't.

You can only scout a checklist, angles, puck-tracking, mobility, athleticism, rebound control and attitude.

Not really fair to blame the system when most goalies either improve little or can't adjust to a faster, harder game.

That's more on the individual.

Why whine about Brossoit? It's not like he's great, he's an average backup.

 

I don't think it's accurate that only Nashville has been successful developing goalies. If my memory serves, you have to go back to Tim Thomas in Boston as the last time the starting goalie for the Stanley Cup champions wasn't drafted by the winning team. 

 

I agree that the Flames are not the only team that struggles in this area. I also agree that great goalies have been found outside of the draft. But I do think great teams often have goalies that came through their system. 

 

That all said, I don't think it's all about the Flames failure to develop goalies. Injuries have impacted some of best prospects (Gilles, Parsons), some just didn't pan out (Irving), and we haven't been stacked enough in the prospect pool to draft goalies higher up in the draft. 

 

The Flames going in on players like Rittich, Berra, etc is a reaction to not having NHL ready goalie prospects, not the cause.

[conundrumed]

47 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I don't think it's accurate that only Nashville has been successful developing goalies. If my memory serves, you have to go back to Tim Thomas in Boston as the last time the starting goalie for the Stanley Cup champions wasn't drafted by the winning team. 

 

I agree that the Flames are not the only team that struggles in this area. I also agree that great goalies have been found outside of the draft. But I do think great teams often have goalies that came through their system. 

 

That all said, I don't think it's all about the Flames failure to develop goalies. Injuries have impacted some of best prospects (Gilles, Parsons), some just didn't pan out (Irving), and we haven't been stacked enough in the prospect pool to draft goalies higher up in the draft. 

 

The Flames going in on players like Rittich, Berra, etc is a reaction to not having NHL ready goalie prospects, not the cause.

But if we want to jump on our ability to draft goalies, I'm all for that.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I don't think it's accurate that only Nashville has been successful developing goalies. If my memory serves, you have to go back to Tim Thomas in Boston as the last time the starting goalie for the Stanley Cup champions wasn't drafted by the winning team. 

 

I agree that the Flames are not the only team that struggles in this area. I also agree that great goalies have been found outside of the draft. But I do think great teams often have goalies that came through their system. 

 

That all said, I don't think it's all about the Flames failure to develop goalies. Injuries have impacted some of best prospects (Gilles, Parsons), some just didn't pan out (Irving), and we haven't been stacked enough in the prospect pool to draft goalies higher up in the draft. 

 

The Flames going in on players like Rittich, Berra, etc is a reaction to not having NHL ready goalie prospects, not the cause.

 

All fair yes.   In some cases though the shear number of injuries moves some accountability to the Flames as well.

 

When is the last time we had AHL defenceman or players who knew hot protect their goalie.    How many time has this organization been caught playing guys injured. 

 

For me it is a numbers thing.   One or two guys sure but we're talking dozens and the odds are some of them should have turned out.

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

But you alluded to the new hires interfering with Wolf's development.

Is it Flames development, or is it a struggle to find who might get far enough to be one of the world's top 75 goalies?

Only Nashville has truly been a goalie factory in this league. 

Most other teams have to buy a goalie.

This isn't isolated to, "the Flames don't know how to".

An 18yo goalie has already developed, the only hope is to see the attributes and hope that they continue to improve. But as they move up leagues, the game in front of them improves. A few can handle it, but most can't.

You can only scout a checklist, angles, puck-tracking, mobility, athleticism, rebound control and attitude.

Not really fair to blame the system when most goalies either improve little or can't adjust to a faster, harder game.

That's more on the individual.

Why whine about Brossoit? It's not like he's great, he's an average backup.

 

More specifically,  the Flames organization interfering with Wolf's development. 

 

Playing him injured,  not protecting him, are the two biggest if he's hot.   Zero minutes is the issue if he's not.

 

You alluded to goalies taking a long time to develop.  I feel the Flames give up on goalies very quickly .   They think they know more than they do, they get too high on some and way too low on others.

 

In fact I would argue my biggest concern is that they are currently too high on Wolf.   There is no other real succession plan and they don't care as demonstrated in the draft.   That's pretty balsy for a goalie just 6 feet tall.

 

 But we've seen many times that this can entirely shift in the course of a few days.   You say goalies take time and I agree, but we have seen them completely change course and give up on players like Gillies in a matter of days, even after horrific injuries they have to come back from.   Maybe a lot of the time they are right,  but it is a self fulfilling prophecy that nearly ensures they will throw the good out with the bad.

 

And this is so much more than one goalie.   I'm still not over 2004 and the Flames haven't given us a reason to be.

[travel_dude]

^^^^

Goaltending has been a problem, but I feel more nature than nurture.

Gillies played on a defensively sound team in college.

27 and he still isn't able to get a job.

Injuries hurt him, but he's no Demko.

Parsons has given them little reason to be excited.

Ortio?  Solid about 50% of the time.

 

If you go back a few years to when we gave away picks for nothing, we should have been drafting goalies.

Having only Wolf ready for the AHL is a problem.

The Russian will stay there for a bit.

But we picked up two guys already developed that we could have drafted way back then.

2 goalies that could be NHL backups, while we wait for Wolf.

I see nothing to suggest that he will be rushed or have his development stunted.

 

Picking outside the 1st round is not the issue.

Only a few of those ever become real starters.

[jjgallow]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

^^^^

Goaltending has been a problem, but I feel more nature than nurture.

Gillies played on a defensively sound team in college.

27 and he still isn't able to get a job.

Injuries hurt him, but he's no Demko.

Parsons has given them little reason to be excited.

Ortio?  Solid about 50% of the time.

 

If you go back a few years to when we gave away picks for nothing, we should have been drafting goalies.

Having only Wolf ready for the AHL is a problem.

The Russian will stay there for a bit.

But we picked up two guys already developed that we could have drafted way back then.

2 goalies that could be NHL backups, while we wait for Wolf.

I see nothing to suggest that he will be rushed or have his development stunted.

 

Picking outside the 1st round is not the issue.

Only a few of those ever become real starters.

 

For sake of arguement I feel that we're dealing with 50/50 nature nurture.    Development is an issue.  Drafting, is an issue.

 

For the bolded, I entirely agree.

 

For picking in the first round:  Maybe it Wasn't an issue, I'm bringing it up now because I think we are approaching a point of desperation.    

At the end of the day, "Only a few of these ever become real starters", I can guarantee you a higher percentage of goalies in the first round become NHL goalies than any other round.   We can go look it up but I'm basically sure we'll find this.

 

More importantly, a higher percentage of first-round-pick goalies win Stanley cups than in any other round.

 

Do we HAVE to pick them in the first round?   If we have our act together, I would say, no.  I would agree it is not necessary.    But we don't have our act together.  So I feel this is the highest priority problem facing the Flames right now and they don't see it that way, because they think goalies are something that just sort of magically happens by chance sometimes.    This thinking is exactly why we're in this position.

[rocketdoctor]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

More importantly, a higher percentage of first-round-pick goalies win Stanley cups than in any other round.

 

 

 

Hmm really?

 

Recent years goalies taken in round 1

2020 - Askarov 11th

2019 - Knight 13th

2018 - None

2017 - Jake Oetteinger 26th

2016 - None

2015 - Samsonov 22nd

2014 - None

2013 - None

2012 - Vasilevskey  19th  Subban 24th

2011 - None

2010 - Campbell 11th

2009 - none

2008 - Pickard 18th

2007 - none

2006 - Bernier

2005 - Price 5th

2004 - Montoya 6th

2003 - Fleury 1st

2002 - Lehoten 2nd

2001 - Leclaire 8th

2000 - DiPietro 1st

 

3 goalies won Stanley cups in that list and Bernier did not play a game as a back up to Quick.

 

Of the 15 goalies listed

 

Elite

Fleury

Vasilevsky

Price

 

Good

Lehoten

 

Okay

Bernier

Campbell

 

Meh

DiPietro

Leclarie

Montoya

Pickard

Subban

 

Too early

Knight

Askarov

Oettinger

Samsonov

 

3 eltie goalies taken in the 1st round in the last 21 years!!   The other 29 teams are obviously doing something just as wrong as the Flames are.

 

[kehatch]

Starting goalies with a SC since the cap was introduced, draft position included:

• Vasilevskiy (19)
• Binnington (88)
• Holtby (93)
• Fleury (1)
• Murray (83)
• Crawford (52)
• Quick (72)
• Thomas (217)
• Niemi (Undrafted)
• Osgood (54)
• Giguere (13)
• Ward (25)

A third of them are first round picks, with half of them selected in the first two rounds. Drafting a goalie in the first or second round certainly helps, but it isn't essential. 

 

More notable to me is that nearly every goalie on the list was drafted and developed by the team they won the cup on. 

[kehatch]

50 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Hmm really?

 

Recent years goalies taken in round 1

2020 - Askarov 11th

2019 - Knight 13th

2018 - None

2017 - Jake Oetteinger 26th

2016 - None

2015 - Samsonov 22nd

2014 - None

2013 - None

2012 - Vasilevskey  19th  Subban 24th

2011 - None

2010 - Campbell 11th

2009 - none

2008 - Pickard 18th

2007 - none

2006 - Bernier

2005 - Price 5th

2004 - Montoya 6th

2003 - Fleury 1st

2002 - Lehoten 2nd

2001 - Leclaire 8th

2000 - DiPietro 1st

 

3 goalies won Stanley cups in that list and Bernier did not play a game as a back up to Quick.

 

Of the 15 goalies listed

 

Elite

Fleury

Vasilevsky

Price

 

Good

Lehoten

 

Okay

Bernier

Campbell

 

Meh

DiPietro

Leclarie

Montoya

Pickard

Subban

 

Too early

Knight

Askarov

Oettinger

Samsonov

 

3 eltie goalies taken in the 1st round in the last 21 years!!   The other 29 teams are obviously doing something just as wrong as the Flames are.

 

 

Good data. But to be fair, 4 out of 11 picks translating to starting goalies (3 elite) is very good. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Hmm really?

 

Recent years goalies taken in round 1

2020 - Askarov 11th

2019 - Knight 13th

2018 - None

2017 - Jake Oetteinger 26th

2016 - None

2015 - Samsonov 22nd

2014 - None

2013 - None

2012 - Vasilevskey  19th  Subban 24th

2011 - None

2010 - Campbell 11th

2009 - none

2008 - Pickard 18th

2007 - none

2006 - Bernier

2005 - Price 5th

2004 - Montoya 6th

2003 - Fleury 1st

2002 - Lehoten 2nd

2001 - Leclaire 8th

2000 - DiPietro 1st

 

3 goalies won Stanley cups in that list and Bernier did not play a game as a back up to Quick.

 

Of the 15 goalies listed

 

Elite

Fleury

Vasilevsky

Price

 

Good

Lehoten

 

Okay

Bernier

Campbell

 

Meh

DiPietro

Leclarie

Montoya

Pickard

Subban

 

Too early

Knight

Askarov

Oettinger

Samsonov

 

3 eltie goalies taken in the 1st round in the last 21 years!!   The other 29 teams are obviously doing something just as wrong as the Flames are.

 

 

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Good data. But to be fair, 4 out of 11 picks translating to starting goalies (3 elite) is very good. 

 

 

 

 

Just this yes, and thank  you kehatch I appreciate that.   This is really what I was trying to show.   And I do actually believe goalie scouting is improving (it gets easier when the NHL pretty much made it impossible for normal size goalies to compete).

 

A couple things to note:    The list above goes as recent as 2020.

 

1.  Jake Oettinger, Spencer Knight are both JUST starting of find their strides in big big ways, Askarov likely next year or the year after.   Between the three it's fair to assume more cups may be on the way, and that all three will soon reach or are already at elite status.

 

2.   Of those 3 goalies who won cups, that accounts for....5 Stanley cups, if my memory services me correctly?   Roughly 25% of all cups in this time.  From just one of 7 rounds plus undrafted.

 

 

So, the thing is it's time consuming to go through all the rounds but I think we can safely say from this, and thank you @rocketdoctor, that no other drafting round will come anywhere close to producing this many starters or this many Stanley Cups.   We know this because nearly all goalies are drafted in later rounds, plus the remaining 75% divided by 6 rounds plus undrafted.     I would guess you need to draft something like 5-10 goalies in later rounds to get the same odds as in the first round.   Basically the Flames could have made up for passing on Wallstedt by using all of their remaining picks on goalies, lol.

 

In conclusion:

Drafting goalies in the first round is risky, but so is drafting forwards and defencemen.    Drafting is risky.  Sure, goalies are slightly riskier but it also comes with greater potential reward.

 

Drafting goalies in later rounds is even riskier, should a team's objective be the highest percentage chance of winning a cup.

 

The old wives tale that goalies are risky in the first round, is technically true, but also true in every other round.    That risk is met with having the best chance at finding a cup winning goalie, as well as a starter, in that first round.

 

 

[kehatch]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Just this yes, and thank  you kehatch I appreciate that.   This is really what I was trying to show.   And I do actually believe goalie scouting is improving (it gets easier when the NHL pretty much made it impossible for normal size goalies to compete).

 

 

Also to be fair, three of those goalies were drafted in the top 5.  Any player drafted in the top 5 has a good chance of turning into an NHL player.  There are also not often goalies in any draft year that justify a high pick like that.  When they are in the draft, they get picked and often turn out.  

 

I don't think its a mystery.  The higher you draft the better chance you have of getting the best player.  That is true of all positions.  Goalies are a bit of a mystery come draft day since they generally take longer to develop and they are impacted so much by the team in front of them.  That lack of confidence causes many teams to avoid high picks on goalies.  But getting the first goalie in the draft (regardless of pick number) means you had your pick of the bunch.  

[rocketdoctor]

I  think my point is that 32 teams are chasing very limited elite talent.

 

And my annoyance at JJ  is that you use emotion  "a higher percentage of first-round-pick goalies win Stanley cups than in any other round"  to back up your narrative which is just not factual.  BTW nothing wrong with emotion and the forums would be a lesser place without it so keep your posts coming!!

 

If we add in the good and lets say Samsonov, Knight, and Oettiger are going to be starters that still only gives you 10 goalies taken in the first round last 20 years to go around 32 teams.  The top end talent is just not there always in the 1st round.   A goalie taken in the top 5 would appear to be a lot more of a safer bet (unless you supoprt NYI!).

 

However 5 of those 15 taken, a pretty hefty 33%, did not turn out how the teams drafting them in the 1st round envisaged!

 

Goalies - what a special breed!!

 

 

[robrob74]

I think the problem in the NYI case is, didnt their first rounder become riddled with injury? What would they’ve been like if they didn’t have a nearly, or pretty much career ending injury? They did draft Luongo high didn’t they? They got that pick right, but didn’t give him a long enough look to be their forever goalie. He came a sniff away from the cup. of course he never won the cup, but did have a very good career and gave his teams good chances at it.
 

Only one goalie wins a cup per year. two if the back up plays. He got beat by Tim Thomas’s last stand and a Boston team that was hungrier.
 

For us Parsons or Gillies got injured and possibly derailed their development. Maybe their upside wasn’t high in the first place. 
 

I don’t think drafting a goalie in the first round guarantees a cup. It can give a better chance at a consistent goalie that can be a starter. Like when going for elite talent at any position, you have to draft them high. 
 

Take Price for example. Best goalie in the world for awhile. Never going to win them a cup. But he has given them elite goaltending and made them a bit more successful than they should’ve been for a few seasons here and there. 
You draft a good goalie, it does nothing for you if you can’t build the rest of the team properly. 
 

ive been saying it for years. The goalies on this team hasn’t been the problem. It is our leaky D. Maybe an elite goalie would stop some of the goals, but you look at Brian Elliott. We thought he was going to fix the goalie problem. Came from the Blues with very good numbers, and he sit the bed due to our play… then had a decent run and then sit the bed again. 
 

you can get an elite goalie, but if you don’t have a team with other great to elite parts in other positions, you’ll still end up nowhere. 
 

Drafting a goalie in the first round might be the way to go at the beginning of the rebuild. Or after you’ve grabbed enough elite talent. 
 

Fleury, Vasilevsky with elite talent got multiple cups. 

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

I  think my point is that 32 teams are chasing very limited elite talent.

 

And my annoyance at JJ  is that you use emotion  "a higher percentage of first-round-pick goalies win Stanley cups than in any other round"  to back up your narrative which is just not factual.  BTW nothing wrong with emotion and the forums would be a lesser place without it so keep your posts coming!!

 

If we add in the good and lets say Samsonov, Knight, and Oettiger are going to be starters that still only gives you 10 goalies taken in the first round last 20 years to go around 32 teams.  The top end talent is just not there always in the 1st round.   A goalie taken in the top 5 would appear to be a lot more of a safer bet (unless you supoprt NYI!).

 

However 5 of those 15 taken, a pretty hefty 33%, did not turn out how the teams drafting them in the 1st round envisaged!

 

Goalies - what a special breed!!

 

 

 

While I admit to being emotional at certain times  (see...draft day), I need to point out to you that I was using a logical mathematical descriptor based entirely on fact.  There wasn't an ounce of emotion in that, I just took the facts you provided (and genuinely thank you for that because that data is a pain in the Hash Rate to collect), and pointed out that we can conclusively state:

 

"a higher percentage of first-round-pick goalies win Stanley cups than in any other round"

 

I'm not sure where the disconnect is but I'm not being emotional here, your data proves this.  With or without Askarov, Knight, and Oettinger (they just solidify it).

 

It just is.     I won't speculate on what the miscommunication is here, and I won't elaborate, I'm not trying to be difficult, these are just facts and that's what math is for.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I think the problem in the NYI case is, didnt their first rounder become riddled with injury? What would they’ve been like if they didn’t have a nearly, or pretty much career ending injury? They did draft Luongo high didn’t they? They got that pick right, but didn’t give him a long enough look to be their forever goalie. He came a sniff away from the cup. of course he never won the cup, but did have a very good career and gave his teams good chances at it.
 

Only one goalie wins a cup per year. two if the back up plays. He got beat by Tim Thomas’s last stand and a Boston team that was hungrier.
 

For us Parsons or Gillies got injured and possibly derailed their development. Maybe their upside wasn’t high in the first place. 
 

I don’t think drafting a goalie in the first round guarantees a cup. It can give a better chance at a consistent goalie that can be a starter. Like when going for elite talent at any position, you have to draft them high. 
 

Take Price for example. Best goalie in the world for awhile. Never going to win them a cup. But he has given them elite goaltending and made them a bit more successful than they should’ve been for a few seasons here and there. 
You draft a good goalie, it does nothing for you if you can’t build the rest of the team properly. 
 

ive been saying it for years. The goalies on this team hasn’t been the problem. It is our leaky D. Maybe an elite goalie would stop some of the goals, but you look at Brian Elliott. We thought he was going to fix the goalie problem. Came from the Blues with very good numbers, and he sit the bed due to our play… then had a decent run and then sit the bed again. 
 

you can get an elite goalie, but if you don’t have a team with other great to elite parts in other positions, you’ll still end up nowhere. 
 

Drafting a goalie in the first round might be the way to go at the beginning of the rebuild. Or after you’ve grabbed enough elite talent. 
 

Fleury, Vasilevsky with elite talent got multiple cups. 

 

While I don't agree that our G aren't a problem, I do agree that our D Are a problem.

 

 

[travel_dude]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:05 AM, jjgallow said:

A couple things to note:    The list above goes as recent as 2020.

 

1.  Jake Oettinger, Spencer Knight are both JUST starting of find their strides in big big ways, Askarov likely next year or the year after.   Between the three it's fair to assume more cups may be on the way, and that all three will soon reach or are already at elite status.

 

2.   Of those 3 goalies who won cups, that accounts for....5 Stanley cups, if my memory services me correctly?   Roughly 25% of all cups in this time.  From just one of 7 rounds plus undrafted.

 

 

Which 3 won a cup that actually played in the playoffs?

Vas, MAF....who am I missing?

 

I count 2 in 20 years.

One might argue that MAF didn't win a cup as much as Murray did.

Even if you dispute that, two guys that played on stacked teams.

Crosby in his prime and Malkin to boot.

Several elite players in Tampa, who made the difference.

Kucherov, Point and oh yeah this D they had called Hedman?

 

Goaltending gets you nothing without a complete team.

Subtract the overcap players this year and TBL has a really good team, but maybe loses in the 3rd round?

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Which 3 won a cup that actually played in the playoffs?

Vas, MAF....who am I missing?

 

I count 2 in 20 years.

One might argue that MAF didn't win a cup as much as Murray did.

Even if you dispute that, two guys that played on stacked teams.

Crosby in his prime and Malkin to boot.

Several elite players in Tampa, who made the difference.

Kucherov, Point and oh yeah this D they had called Hedman?

 

Goaltending gets you nothing without a complete team.

Subtract the overcap players this year and TBL has a really good team, but maybe loses in the 3rd round?

 

yeah well that's fair, you do kind of need it all.   Without a doubt.

 

Nobody's saying we should just draft goalies with every pick we have every year.   

 

For sure, you could say just 2 goalies but still 4 cups between them.    But I would point out, this is a different era too.   Gone are the days of the Dominik Haseks and the true greats who made it by skill.    The best natural goaltenders of this next generation, for the most part, won't ever play in the NHL because they're not 6'5.  A pretty easy attribute to scout.   So unless the rules change, these first rounds are going to matter more and more.   Just as the goalies we're using for this data are relatively more recent.   Likewise we're looking back 20 years so the data isn't so lop sided

[rocketdoctor]

Scott Wheeler of The Athletic put out a goalie article out today.

 

He ranks Wolf 5th in top 10 goalie prospects.  Had some good things to say about him.  He had him in the mid tier of 4-7

 

He had Askarov, Knight, Wallstedt as the top tier then Cossa at number 4 starting the mid tier.

 

The other 5 Swayman, Dostal, Commesso, Mads Sogaad( ex Tigers), and Portillo.

 

So just maybe, we have our 5' 11 goalie  of the future.  Going to be interesting to see who they give the AHL/ECHL goal to this year now they have signed Parsons for another year.

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

Scott Wheeler of The Athletic put out a goalie article out today.

 

He ranks Wolf 5th in top 10 goalie prospects.  Had some good things to say about him.  He had him in the mid tier of 4-7

 

He had Askarov, Knight, Wallstedt as the top tier then Cossa at number 4 starting the mid tier.

 

The other 5 Swayman, Dostal, Commesso, Mads Sogaad( ex Tigers), and Portillo.

 

So just maybe, we have our 5' 11 goalie  of the future.  Going to be interesting to see who they give the AHL/ECHL goal to this year now they have signed Parsons for another year.

 

 

I must admit that I am a little surprised at the signing.   At the same time, I'm happy about the signing.   It is too early to give up on Parsons.

 

That said, I have to believe Wolf has almost definitely secured the starting position, or at least it's his to lose, and Parsons wouldn't be the only goalie competing for the backup spot.   My guess is we see him go back to the ECHL but if he has a strong start then maybe he could get that backup position.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I must admit that I am a little surprised at the signing.   At the same time, I'm happy about the signing.   It is too early to give up on Parsons.

 

That said, I have to believe Wolf has almost definitely secured the starting position, or at least it's his to lose, and Parsons wouldn't be the only goalie competing for the backup spot.   My guess is we see him go back to the ECHL but if he has a strong start then maybe he could get that backup position.

 

Parsons and Wolf are the two guys more likely to be in the AHL.

Werner will end up in Kansas and alternate with the backup in the AHL to keep all fresh and playing.

I would expect initially, a 1a/1b running of AHL goalies, much like Rittich/Gillies was.

The best of the two will be assured of staying in the AHL and getting any injury callup.

 

Darth Vlader will stay in CGY and not be waived.

Of the remaining guys, only Parsons need to be waived to go down, so he will be and will start there.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Parsons and Wolf are the two guys more likely to be in the AHL.

Werner will end up in Kansas and alternate with the backup in the AHL to keep all fresh and playing.

I would expect initially, a 1a/1b running of AHL goalies, much like Rittich/Gillies was.

The best of the two will be assured of staying in the AHL and getting any injury callup.

 

Darth Vlader will stay in CGY and not be waived.

Of the remaining guys, only Parsons need to be waived to go down, so he will be and will start there.

 

Let's hope it's not that interesting as a 1a/1b.   I know you're not suggesting it to be permanent, but imho it should be non-existent.

 

Wolf is your chance at an impact NHL goalie.

 

Parsons at this point is mostly filling holes with a very outside chance at recovering himself to make things interesting.

 

I gotta be honest I don't care who plays better the first 5 games.  You invest in Wolf, until he gives you reason not to.  Or until Parsons (or another) forces the issue.   Any given pro goalie can be the best/worst goalie in the AHL or NHL on any given night.   You can't make strategic decisions off of that and let's hope the Flames don't try.  I don't think they will, I'm just sayin.