Goaltending

[cross16]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I know the numbers look bad. I think there were a few where they looked bad but a few where they looked good but the GA weren’t their fault. 
 

I hopebthe team can clean up the play. Yesterday wasn’t dominant but they gave Talbot a chance to see some shots and he got a ahutout for it. All he had to do was be square to the play.

 

The numbers do look bad, if we are talking about the Flames defensively that is. I have a hard time worrying about either goalie when the reality is unless the team cleans up their d play and can do it consistently, it likely doesn't matter which goalie you have out there. 

 

I took a little closer look at the numbers since Feb 1st. In 15 games the Flames have been able to have what I would consider an above avg defensive performance (beat the league average of expected goals against/60) only 7 times. Those teams were Canucks, Blackhawks (funny enough this was the game they gave up 8), Ducks, Bruins, Red Wings, Bruins and then the Panthers. So of the 7 you have 4 teams that are out of the playoffs and 2 of the doormat NHL teams right now. 

 

If you want to look at Talbot's last 5 starts the defensive numbers avg out to be:

2.38 ExGoals a/60

25.6 Scoring chances against/60

9.52 High danger chances/60

 

Rittich's last 8:

2.51

26.2

11.17

 

also interesting is that the Flames give up almost 1 full Rush attempt against/60 more with Rittich in net then Talbot. 

 

This is why i would call it basically even right now. Talbot's numbers look better but he's gotten some better performances ahead of him. He still gets the small edge in performance, but at the end of the day for me it doesn't matter unless the Flames can get more consistent in executing their defensive coverage. 

 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

The numbers do look bad, if we are talking about the Flames defensively that is. I have a hard time worrying about either goalie when the reality is unless the team cleans up their d play and can do it consistently, it likely doesn't matter which goalie you have out there. 

 

I took a little closer look at the numbers since Feb 1st. In 15 games the Flames have been able to have what I would consider an above avg defensive performance (beat the league average of expected goals against/60) only 7 times. Those teams were Canucks, Blackhawks (funny enough this was the game they gave up 8), Ducks, Bruins, Red Wings, Bruins and then the Panthers. So of the 7 you have 4 teams that are out of the playoffs and 2 of the doormat NHL teams right now. 

 

If you want to look at Talbot's last 5 starts the defensive numbers avg out to be:

2.38 ExGoals a/60

25.6 Scoring chances against/60

9.52 High danger chances/60

 

Rittich's last 8:

2.51

26.2

11.17

 

also interesting is that the Flames give up almost 1 full Rush attempt against/60 more with Rittich in net then Talbot. 

 

This is why i would call it basically even right now. Talbot's numbers look better but he's gotten some better performances ahead of him. He still gets the small edge in performance, but at the end of the day for me it doesn't matter unless the Flames can get more consistent in executing their defensive coverage. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info. 

I just think a lot look at the goalies' numbers and come to the conclusion that they're just not good enough. 

I do believe that Rittich isn't playing at the level he was at in the begging of the year, but then, those were games when he stole a few wins for the Flames. 

 

He's not Kipper, but I feel like Kipper was thrown under the bus at times as well. 

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Thanks for the info. 

I just think a lot look at the goalies' numbers and come to the conclusion that they're just not good enough. 

I do believe that Rittich isn't playing at the level he was at in the begging of the year, but then, those were games when he stole a few wins for the Flames. 

 

He's not Kipper, but I feel like Kipper was thrown under the bus at times as well. 

 

And I would agree. He has taken a step back for sure. 

 

More concerning for me is the attitude. He is a fiery guy and I love that about him but for me he seems to be best when that spirit is channeled in productive/fun ways. Lately it seems to be directly more to the frustration side. 

 

I can't say I blame him though. Watching the Flames fail to execute basic defensive details gets me riled up, and i'm not the one playing goal behind them. However, he still has to learn to cope with that. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

And I would agree. He has taken a step back for sure. 

 

More concerning for me is the attitude. He is a fiery guy and I love that about him but for me he seems to be best when that spirit is channeled in productive/fun ways. Lately it seems to be directly more to the frustration side. 

 

I can't say I blame him though. Watching the Flames fail to execute basic defensive details gets me riled up, and i'm not the one playing goal behind them. However, he still has to learn to cope with that. 

 

 

Ya, true!

 

I don't know if that kind of emotions and anger towards the teammates grows old like some say in the media. I know that it's only beer league, but when our goalie yelled at us about a missed assignment, we knew we were playing it wrong and I agreed with it. 

 

My only issue with getting called out is when it is done to only me and you see other players doing the same thing. I think if you call a spade a spade, you get it. The goalie would yell, "good job! Good back check! Awesome play!" when it was warranted as well. 

 

My problem with getting called out is when Mike Smith did it the last few years to justify his errors. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

On 3/2/2020 at 4:15 PM, robrob74 said:

 

 

Do you think that goalies have gotten worse over the years since we were younger? I mean, something that I see is that there are only a handful of good goalies, and then one or two, maybe 3 that are dominant in the league. Then a lot are just average and on any team they could have good, average or below average numbers. 

 

I agree with you that the Flames have done a poor job of drafting and developing a goalie since Kidd. Kidd could have been better but they rushed him. I don't know what they're doing, but they're failing at development. I'd say we are average at overall development as well. I think average because we can develop hockey players, but we are not developing any top line players. There are teams that draft deep into drafts and can develop guys to play there. 

 

Have we developed Monahan? Gaudreau? Tkachuk? I guess that's where the, did we develop them, or were they just always going to be that good debate starts? 

 

I like Rittich, but I get why you'd be frustrated with him. He is good enough to step up when needed, but like the rest of the team, he goes cold when it is easy to get complacent. Now that the team is playing he is complacent. I like Tallbot as well. But both have been very inconsistent but good throughout the year as well.

 

This is sort of a reply to your question and @cross's answer as well, from a more general viewpoint.

 

yeah I think they're worse.  because:

 

15 years ago the writeup on a goalie would be:  "athletic", "fast reflexes", "intuitive",

 

Now it's:

 

"big", "covers net", "well positioned".

 

 

So yeah.  They're worse imho.  And boring to watch compared to before.

 

 

If it were up to me, the equipment rules would be changed so that the larger goalies can stop cheating.    but it's not up to me and I do get the safety.

 

So yes, we've gone 15 years without a "game-changing" goalie.   Because really you're just stuffing someone big in the net.

 

I don't think it will stay that way though.    12-15 years is enough time that now it's in the development system.   There's a development system lag.  Until recently, if a kid was big and had good reflexes, he would be encouraged to play forward.      If he was small and athletic, he would be encouraged to play goal.  And it is all these players who were developed into a dead end.

 

Now things have started changing.   Small athletic players are encouraged to put a picture of Gaudreau on their wall.       Big player with reflexes?  For the first time ever, they're being encouraged to play net.    And they are JUST starting to come through to the draft.

 

IMHO, Askarov is one of the First of these.   Big, fast kid with great reflexes, encouraged to play net because it's obvious.   Is he the game change of a generation...I don't know.  But he could be and I think we will see one as the development system aligns with the net reallity.

[Horsman1]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

The numbers do look bad, if we are talking about the Flames defensively that is. I have a hard time worrying about either goalie when the reality is unless the team cleans up their d play and can do it consistently, it likely doesn't matter which goalie you have out there. 

 

I took a little closer look at the numbers since Feb 1st. In 15 games the Flames have been able to have what I would consider an above avg defensive performance (beat the league average of expected goals against/60) only 7 times. Those teams were Canucks, Blackhawks (funny enough this was the game they gave up 8), Ducks, Bruins, Red Wings, Bruins and then the Panthers. So of the 7 you have 4 teams that are out of the playoffs and 2 of the doormat NHL teams right now. 

 

If you want to look at Talbot's last 5 starts the defensive numbers avg out to be:

2.38 ExGoals a/60

25.6 Scoring chances against/60

9.52 High danger chances/60

 

Rittich's last 8:

2.51

26.2

11.17

 

also interesting is that the Flames give up almost 1 full Rush attempt against/60 more with Rittich in net then Talbot. 

 

This is why i would call it basically even right now. Talbot's numbers look better but he's gotten some better performances ahead of him. He still gets the small edge in performance, but at the end of the day for me it doesn't matter unless the Flames can get more consistent in executing their defensive coverage. 

 

 

 

Calgary has historically played a tighter team defensive game with the back-up goalie in.... 

 

 

[sak22]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Ya, true!

 

I don't know if that kind of emotions and anger towards the teammates grows old like some say in the media. I know that it's only beer league, but when our goalie yelled at us about a missed assignment, we knew we were playing it wrong and I agreed with it. 

 

My only issue with getting called out is when it is done to only me and you see other players doing the same thing. I think if you call a spade a spade, you get it. The goalie would yell, "good job! Good back check! Awesome play!" when it was warranted as well. 

 

My problem with getting called out is when Mike Smith did it the last few years to justify his errors. 

 

 

I don't think his emotions stems from the team in front of him as much as competitive nature.  If his blowups are because of that I'd say for him to F right off, he makes boneheaded decisions playing the puck and still makes me nervous wheever he leaves his crease.  A goalie should believe they can stop any shot regardless, and should be upset letting any goal in.  Rittich's issues are he is showing to be someone who teams can get to, he had no reason to mix it up with Coleman the other day.  And the stick flip celebration makes him look like the joke around the league when the same team lights him up 3 days later.  I believe the guy has two options, control the emotions or play better off them.  If he can't do either he will just be mocked around the league, most my non-Flame fan friends have been calling him a joke for weeks now.

[travel_dude]

Well, we seem to be entering that time of year where Rittich (and the team) is having problems getting wins.

Last year it didn't matter, since Smith was supposed to be the starter and Rittich took a back seat after his injury.

This year, Rittich was the man for Oct-Dec.

Since January, Rittich does not have a Home win.

Talbot has fared better.

 

In 2020, Rittich is 6 wins and 6 losses, plus pulled 2 times in games. 

Talbot has fared better.  9 wins, 2 losses and 1 OT loss.

 

Draw your own conclusions from this.

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Well, we seem to be entering that time of year where Rittich (and the team) is having problems getting wins.

Last year it didn't matter, since Smith was supposed to be the starter and Rittich took a back seat after his injury.

This year, Rittich was the man for Oct-Dec.

Since January, Rittich does not have a Home win.

Talbot has fared better.

 

In 2020, Rittich is 6 wins and 6 losses, plus pulled 2 times in games. 

Talbot has fared better.  9 wins, 2 losses and 1 OT loss.

 

Draw your own conclusions from this.

 

 

A lot of games it has been the team play. You want goalies to win you games but then, cant have it that way too often. Their play has gotten better of late, but not consistent enough to be win consistently. 

 

I am far from a goalie coach but I  do see some flaws in his mechanics. He isn't tracking the puck as well as he was in the those first 3 months. I kind of think it could be goalie coach? I mean, you want to coach those mishaps out of his game. But then, it's so psychological that I guess you can't be in the goalies' head for them. I dunno what goes on with the goalie coach, so all i can do is speculate and go by past experience with our coach and goalies. It just seems the longer the coach has with the goalies, they tend to get worse. And Rittich started strong and got worse. 

 

Or does Rittich thrive on a team that plays poorly and the better they got the more laid back Rittich has been. He tends to take it easy wihen the team is playing better. It was like that last year as well. 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

A lot of games it has been the team play. You want goalies to win you games but then, cant have it that way too often. Their play has gotten better of late, but not consistent enough to be win consistently. 

 

I am far from a goalie coach but I  do see some flaws in his mechanics. He isn't tracking the puck as well as he was in the those first 3 months. I kind of think it could be goalie coach? I mean, you want to coach those mishaps out of his game. But then, it's so psychological that I guess you can't be in the goalies' head for them. I dunno what goes on with the goalie coach, so all i can do is speculate and go by past experience with our coach and goalies. It just seems the longer the coach has with the goalies, they tend to get worse. And Rittich started strong and got worse. 

 

Or does Rittich thrive on a team that plays poorly and the better they got the more laid back Rittich has been. He tends to take it easy wihen the team is playing better. It was like that last year as well. 

 

For me it comes down to stealing games.

Talbot has stolen a few this calendar, while Rittich has not.

Is that fair?

Well, you want the goalie to steal a few for you.

Flames have played well enough to win some of the games they have lost.

Two that come to mind are Preds and VGK.

Both were not strong showings by the goalie.

Neither was played particularly well by the team, but in both cases the goalie let them down after coming back.

 

I think there is something going on with Rittich.

He's not the same.

Almost like the stick flip was something that got into his head.

Hasn;t won at home, but seemed fine on the road for the most part.

Losses to Preds and Tampa and he hasn;t shown any better since.

[Thebrewcrew]

Talbot has been the better of late, no questions asked. Solid, but not spectacular. He is a quality veteran, you know what you’re getting every night out of him. I think they should give him the next 2 or 3.

 

Every goalie in the NHL has the same skill set. You don’t reach this level without being really good, it’s 95% mental though and only 5% skill at this level. Right now it’s between Rittich’s ears. I wouldn’t put the TB, NSH or VGK game on him as the Flames played poorly and gave up far too many quality chances. But yesterday for sure, he wasn’t comfy in net, he fought it a bit, looked unsure, got twisted around in the crease. He will come out of it though. He needs to simplify. Most importantly go out there and have fun, then take it one shot at a time, can’t stop a shot twice. Just focus on the first shot and build from there

[cross16]

I mean you can argue this if you want but to me it’s pretty pointless as neither goalie is playing well right now. Talbot’s results look better sure but if you consider the opponents and team play in front of them it negates the small difference in numbers. Talbot has been extremely lucky lately or this conversation is quite different. 
 

Flames need to tighten up defensively and they need both playing better. End of story for me. 

[Thebrewcrew]

57 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I mean you can argue this if you want but to me it’s pretty pointless as neither goalie is playing well right now. Talbot’s results look better sure but if you consider the opponents and team play in front of them it negates the small difference in numbers. Talbot has been extremely lucky lately or this conversation is quite different. 
 

Flames need to tighten up defensively and they need both playing better. End of story for me. 

I would agree.

 

The Arizona game, yeah Talbot won. But the Coyotes had terrible puck luck. We didn’t win because he was stellar, the Yotes had a bunch of near misses, we were fortunate to win. 

 

Stats wise Talbot has been the better goalie, but far from stellar.

 

As you said, they can’t give up as many grade A chances, but they also aren’t getting many key saves either 

[sak22]

I think its only fair that we point the finger at who is directly responsible for Rittich's home struggles, and that is none other than Miikka Kiprusoff.  He leaves and goes off doing his own thing without ever stopping by, while we struggle finding a consistent replacement, it appears that we may finally have that and all of the sudden he returns at the Vancouver game to say hello.  It was shortly after the Kipper salute at that game that Rittich gave up what might be the worst goal of his career to Myers and hasn't looked the same at home since.  So for that I say F U Kipper don't curse our goalies (kidding of course).

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

13 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I think its only fair that we point the finger at who is directly responsible for Rittich's home struggles, and that is none other than Miikka Kiprusoff.  He leaves and goes off doing his own thing without ever stopping by, while we struggle finding a consistent replacement, it appears that we may finally have that and all of the sudden he returns at the Vancouver game to say hello.  It was shortly after the Kipper salute at that game that Rittich gave up what might be the worst goal of his career to Myers and hasn't looked the same at home since.  So for that I say F U Kipper don't curse our goalies (kidding of course).

 

 

I think it was the stick flip.

 

I loved it at the time. But I think the backlash he got from it bothered him. He played really well that night and in a big game you can celebrate how you want IMO, mcdavid celebrates after goals... anyway since that game he has rarely been above .900sv% in a start 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I mean you can argue this if you want but to me it’s pretty pointless as neither goalie is playing well right now. Talbot’s results look better sure but if you consider the opponents and team play in front of them it negates the small difference in numbers. Talbot has been extremely lucky lately or this conversation is quite different. 
 

Flames need to tighten up defensively and they need both playing better. End of story for me. 

 

No doubt.

Hard to compate games just by the numbers.

The point is that we are not getting better than average and even below average goaltending.

You need the Flames play like they did in BOS or FLA.

You also need the goalie to stop as many HD chances as they can.

 

EDM has been getting better goltending from their #1 and both in general.

Smith is Smith in some games but the team plays a little better in front of him.

Koskinen gaces double the shots of the opponent a lot of nights.

Thy bleed chances like a stick pig.

 

Against BJ's, 46 shots.

Aganst Vegas 48 shots.

Against Dallas 43 shots.

Games the Oilers had no business in.

5/6 points.

That accounts for the Oilers being 5 up versus one down to us.

 

 

 

[jjgallow]

 

Well, Treliving did say that we need to rewatch, and then analyze after last year's late dropoff.

 

This is just our rewatching season (of last season).   Delivered as promised.

 

Next year is our analyzing season.

 

I am very confident that our goaltending situation will get addressed properly in the 2022/2023 season just like Treliving said.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well, Treliving did say that we need to rewatch, and then analyze after last year's late dropoff.

 

This is just our rewatching season (of last season).   Delivered as promised.

 

Next year is our analyzing season.

 

I am very confident that our goaltending situation will get addressed properly in the 2022/2023 season just like Treliving said.

 

Wolf should be the number 1 here by then.

[cross16]

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

No doubt.

Hard to compate games just by the numbers.

The point is that we are not getting better than average and even below average goaltending.

You need the Flames play like they did in BOS or FLA.

You also need the goalie to stop as many HD chances as they can.

 

They are not but honestly with the way the Flames have played D lately i'm not convinced the results would be different if you had Hellebuyck or Vasilevsky back there. 

 

Flames D is jut too leaky and their team is so inconsistent. Really, really hard for a goalie to get in a groove when it's so different game to game. It's so chaotic you just don't know where it's coming from in the Flames d zone. 

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

They are not but honestly with the way the Flames have played D lately i'm not convinced the results would be different if you had Hellebuyck or Vasilevsky back there. 

 

Flames D is jut too leaky and their team is so inconsistent. Really, really hard for a goalie to get in a groove when it's so different game to game. It's so chaotic you just don't know where it's coming from in the Flames d zone. 

I have to agree, it’s a different flavour every game. I watch a lot of other teams as well, it’s not hard to see that Calgary plays no where similar to top teams. We are never in the shooting lanes, and how many times have we lost a game by a stick in the wrong spot or missed coverage, which is really hockey 101 basics. Now when these fools decide that they need to play more defensive they play well. Most top teams play a similar game night in night out,  not these guys, they show up when they want to. This not starting on time dis engaged non physical excuses have been here for years now. In some extent our identity is inconsistency. Our goaltending has not been our issue this year, and if the stick flip has mentally mind Blockchained Rittch he needs a new profession 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Wolf should be the number 1 here by then.

 

Looking a little stagnated this year...

 

Not that I'm giving up on him but I wouldn't begin to make any NHL assumptions with him at this point and Definitely no starter assumptions unless he has a surprise playoff performance.  Brayden Holt at the age of 16 has almost identical stats as him on that team.

 

Reminds me a lot of when Laurent Brossoit was in our good books with his great stats on a great team and the younger Tristan Jarry overtook him (in the WHL).

[Carty]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

They are not but honestly with the way the Flames have played D lately i'm not convinced the results would be different if you had Hellebuyck or Vasilevsky back there. 

 

Flames D is jut too leaky and their team is so inconsistent. Really, really hard for a goalie to get in a groove when it's so different game to game. It's so chaotic you just don't know where it's coming from in the Flames d zone. 

 

Agreed...   A  goalie doesn't mind the odd brain fart in the D-zone, because sometimes Satoshi  just happens...   But  all too often lately, there are far too many rookie mistakes made inside the Flames blue line, and that makes things very difficult for the goalie because they feel like they have to start to constantly expect the unexpected...   and that messes with the goalies ability to focus and stay in the groove...

[travel_dude]

On 3/10/2020 at 2:31 PM, jjgallow said:

 

Looking a little stagnated this year...

 

Not that I'm giving up on him but I wouldn't begin to make any NHL assumptions with him at this point and Definitely no starter assumptions unless he has a surprise playoff performance.  Brayden Holt at the age of 16 has almost identical stats as him on that team.

 

Reminds me a lot of when Laurent Brossoit was in our good books with his great stats on a great team and the younger Tristan Jarry overtook him (in the WHL).

 

Holy crap dude.

You obviously don't like him for some reason.

Stagnated eh?

 

Comparing him to Holt is just so dumb.

2700 minutes played versus 363.

The kid hasn't even played 8 full games (120 minutes short of that).

Tell me you are basing your opinion on something more that SA% and GAA.

[jjgallow]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Holy crap dude.

You obviously don't like him for some reason.

Stagnated eh?

 

Comparing him to Holt is just so dumb.

2700 minutes played versus 363.

The kid hasn't even played 8 full games (120 minutes short of that).

Tell me you are basing your opinion on something more that SA% and GAA.

 

before we even get to my statements you need to consider that you started off by saying "Wolf should be our #1 by then".

 

Even if we were all very high on Wolf..

 

The certainty level in that statement is well outside of statistical likelihood.

[travel_dude]

23 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

before we even get to my statements you need to consider that you started off by saying "Wolf should be our #1 by then".

 

Even if we were all very high on Wolf..

 

The certainty level in that statement is well outside of statistical likelihood.

 

It was tongue in sheek, mostly to deal with your extreme pessimism.

 

Unless the Flames draft "your guy" you will continue with this.

Do I think Wolf will be our starter then?

Who knows.

You are convinced that is a statistical imposibility.

EVery starter that comes out of nowhere matches that, right?