Goaltending

[cross16]

On 6/18/2017 at 4:49 PM, Flyerfan52 said:

BTW, does anyone else remember that Mike Smith's best years were behind a Phoenix team that made Ilya Bryzgalov look great?

 

Sorry. I'm just disappointed this is the best BT could do.

 

Get your disappointment and while I don't love this trade, your first point is not accurate. Bryzgalov played behind a very different team. The Coyotoes were a good club until the 11-12 season and then they've been stripping it down every since. 

 

In the 4 years he was there Brzy faced on avg around 29 shots/game. Since then the Coyotes avg giving up 32 and in the last 3 years they have been a bottom 5 teams just about every year in shots against, scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against. While I don't have firm numbers (Natural Stat Trick only goes back 3 years) I think it's fair to assume that with giving up more shots overall means the overall quality of shots overall is going to go up as well. The Coyotes are quite frankly the worst defensive team in the league, but they were one of the better ones with Bryz was there. After the 11-12 season the Coyotes starting to strip their team away and their roster ever since has been filled with either crappy veterans or youth and you simply won't be able to play good defense with that mix. 

 

 I'm not suggesting Smith will be great there and in fact I think his numbers will be pretty similar to what he's put up in Pheonix but he doesn't compare well to Bryz. Smith has been putting up decent numbers behind a below avg defensive team. 

[Flyerfan52]

5 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Im curious why we would want to see raanta or grubauer here at the cost of #16, id be ok with using the #16 pick to acquire a top 4 d man but to acquire another goalie, when  we already have parsons and gillies coming, I think we should pass. I would have taken a stab at one of those two for the same deal we got smith for, but for a first rounder and probably more which it sounds like was the asking price ill take a pass.

I would have gone as high as pick #16 for Grubauer but now it's moot as BT has hitched his wagon to Smith. Hopefully he made the right choice.

[redfire11]

With the addition of Mike Smith; If you are Centerman or defenseman and you screw up in front of the goalie NO longer are you going to get that sympathy hug from Geo or that little "time out" from GG. You will be yelled at so the whole stadium hears it. I think we will see some Major maturing this season.

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

With the addition of Mike Smith; If you are Centerman or defenseman and you screw up in front of the goalie NO longer are you going to get that sympathy hug from Geo or that little "time out" from GG. You will be yelled at so the whole stadium hears it. I think we will see some Major maturing this season.

No Kidding .. Good thing Wideman is gone.. somebody would get hurt  

[cross16]

Good read on why Petr Mrzaek was left exposed with a mention that Calgary checked it but sounds like interest wasn't all that high.

 

https://theathletic.com/68819/2017/06/20/why-petr-mrazek-was-exposed-to-the-expansion-draft-and-what-happens-next/

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

Good read on why Petr Mrzaek was left exposed with a mention that Calgary checked it but sounds like interest wasn't all that high.

 

https://theathletic.com/68819/2017/06/20/why-petr-mrazek-was-exposed-to-the-expansion-draft-and-what-happens-next/

There is always a reason beneath the surface.

[phoenix66]

Interesting quote from Elliot  in  Friedman's 30 Thoughts today ..

 

18. Elliott had some interesting things to say about his year in Calgary and how he played. He thinks his early struggles came because he knew exactly how the St. Louis defencemen would make certain plays, and needed time to adjust to the Flames.

“Wherever I go next, I’m going to focus a lot right away on communication so I can hit the ground running. Jay Bouwmeester, Alex Pietrangelo, Kevin Shattenkirk, whether they would slide on a two-on-one, take away the back door or focus on the slot, I’d been with them so long I knew what they’d do. I knew when I could cheat a little more, or should do it less. It took a lot of video work with (Calgary goalie coach) Jordan Sigalet, but finally I felt better and could be more aggressive. It was a reminder that players aren’t going to change their tendencies in front of you, so you have to learn how to read a different team.”

 

again , feel bad for the guy.. but still we made the right move ..   it does raise the question though,  Why did it take so long to adjust ?- was almost half way thru the season before his game started picking up ..  tells me either a) he doesnt adjust well    b ) Jordan Sigalet again dropped the ball by not coaching to this faster and better  c) it lends more credence to how goalies to a large degree are a product of the team system and d) Why was this(bolded) not on your To Do list already when you got here ??

 

One of the first things I read about Smith after the trade is how he is constantly learning new training to adapt his style.. sounds like he's much more coachable

[The_People1]

50 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Interesting quote from Elliot  in  Friedman's 30 Thoughts today ..

 

18. Elliott had some interesting things to say about his year in Calgary and how he played. He thinks his early struggles came because he knew exactly how the St. Louis defencemen would make certain plays, and needed time to adjust to the Flames.

“Wherever I go next, I’m going to focus a lot right away on communication so I can hit the ground running. Jay Bouwmeester, Alex Pietrangelo, Kevin Shattenkirk, whether they would slide on a two-on-one, take away the back door or focus on the slot, I’d been with them so long I knew what they’d do. I knew when I could cheat a little more, or should do it less. It took a lot of video work with (Calgary goalie coach) Jordan Sigalet, but finally I felt better and could be more aggressive. It was a reminder that players aren’t going to change their tendencies in front of you, so you have to learn how to read a different team.”

 

again , feel bad for the guy.. but still we made the right move ..   it does raise the question though,  Why did it take so long to adjust ?- was almost half way thru the season before his game started picking up ..  tells me either a) he doesnt adjust well    b ) Jordan Sigalet again dropped the ball by not coaching to this faster and better  c) it lends more credence to how goalies to a large degree are a product of the team system and d) Why was this(bolded) not on your To Do list already when you got here ??

 

One of the first things I read about Smith after the trade is how he is constantly learning new training to adapt his style.. sounds like he's much more coachable

 

That doesn't explain why he couldn't stop a beach ball in the playoffs.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Why did it take so long to adjust ?- was almost half way thru the season before his game started picking up ..  tells me either a) he doesnt adjust well    b ) Jordan Sigalet again dropped the ball by not coaching to this faster and better  c) it lends more credence to how goalies to a large degree are a product of the team system and d) Why was this(bolded) not on your To Do list already when you got here ??

 

One of the first things I read about Smith after the trade is how he is constantly learning new training to adapt his style.. sounds like he's much more coachable

 

Seems like both goalies struggled early on, so it sounds like they didn't figure out the plays before the season started.  The defense struggled as much as the goalies.  I won't single out Sigalet but will say that the coaching left a lot to be desired in the early season.  The new system wasn't easy to switch to, and the use of useless defensemen didn't help.  There was a natural learning curve.

 

Now onto Sigalet.  Regardless of how the team was playing in front of the goalies, I think a lot of fault rests with him.  There had been very little success with NHL goalies or prospects that have played here.  Time to move on.

 

RE: Bolded - I can understand the enthusiasm of getting a new goalie.  Perhaps it would make sense to see if he plays well in camp before you go projecting these great qualities on him.  Does he have a great attitude?  I'm sure he is excited to go from a basement team to a potential playoff team.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Seems like both goalies struggled early on, so it sounds like they didn't figure out the plays before the season started.  The defense struggled as much as the goalies.  I won't single out Sigalet but will say that the coaching left a lot to be desired in the early season.  The new system wasn't easy to switch to, and the use of useless defensemen didn't help.  There was a natural learning curve.

 

Now onto Sigalet.  Regardless of how the team was playing in front of the goalies, I think a lot of fault rests with him.  There had been very little success with NHL goalies or prospects that have played here.  Time to move on.

 

RE: Bolded - I can understand the enthusiasm of getting a new goalie.  Perhaps it would make sense to see if he plays well in camp before you go projecting these great qualities on him.  Does he have a great attitude?  I'm sure he is excited to go from a basement team to a potential playoff team.

At 35 I don't think Smith will require much coaching from Sigalet. Coaches are there to remind the players of the fundamentals especially with goaltending. Elliott was referring to the tendencies of the defensemen he played with for a number of years and this forms part of your mental game within the game. I would have been fine with bringing back Elliott but sometimes a cosmetic change makes people feel good. Time will tell if life is any better with Smith.

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Seems like both goalies struggled early on, so it sounds like they didn't figure out the plays before the season started.  The defense struggled as much as the goalies.  I won't single out Sigalet but will say that the coaching left a lot to be desired in the early season.  The new system wasn't easy to switch to, and the use of useless defensemen didn't help.  There was a natural learning curve.

 

Now onto Sigalet.  Regardless of how the team was playing in front of the goalies, I think a lot of fault rests with him.  There had been very little success with NHL goalies or prospects that have played here.  Time to move on.

 

RE: Bolded - I can understand the enthusiasm of getting a new goalie.  Perhaps it would make sense to see if he plays well in camp before you go projecting these great qualities on him.  Does he have a great attitude?  I'm sure he is excited to go from a basement team to a potential playoff team.

I think Johnson actually came out of the gate pretty good.. but he was used to playing behind a bad defense so his own habits were of benefit 

 

 

I think there is enough history there that we can definitely single out Sigalet. Aside from getting Kari Ramo to make some adjustments that helped his last season .

First he was on the farm and goalies coming up were not NHl ready .. since he's been up I dont see our guys playing top of their game.. I'm pretty sure he has incriminating photos of somebody . I dont see any other reason when you have the run of bad goaltending we have had , hes the only common denominator.

When a whole team constantly plays badly , they fire the coach.. i dont get how he has survived

 

The Guy on the farm however ..http://stocktonheat.com/team/coaching-staff/colin-zulianello/   This guy seems to be the real deal, last year speaks to his benefit..   

wasn't surprised to see this:  Zulianello has worked with Hockey Canada and runs his own goalie academy in his hometown of Thunder Bay, Ontario with some of his pupils include 2016 Stanley Cup Champion Matt Murray of the Pittsburgh Penguins, St. Louis Blues netminder Carter Hutton, 2015-16 OHL Goaltender of the Year and First All-Star Team Mackenzie Blackwood 

So at least our kids are in good hands .. I read recently some NHL teams inquired about him for the big league job .. if we're not careful we could lose him 

[MAC331]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

I think Johnson actually came out of the gate pretty good.. but he was used to playing behind a bad defense so his own habits were of benefit 

 

 

I think there is enough history there that we can definitely single out Sigalet. Aside from getting Kari Ramo to make some adjustments that helped his last season .

First he was on the farm and goalies coming up were not NHl ready .. since he's been up I dont see our guys playing top of their game.. I'm pretty sure he has incriminating photos of somebody . I dont see any other reason when you have the run of bad goaltending we have had , hes the only common denominator.

When a whole team constantly plays badly , they fire the coach.. i dont get how he has survived

 

The Guy on the farm however ..http://stocktonheat.com/team/coaching-staff/colin-zulianello/   This guy seems to be the real deal, last year speaks to his benefit..   

wasn't surprised to see this:  Zulianello has worked with Hockey Canada and runs his own goalie academy in his hometown of Thunder Bay, Ontario with some of his pupils include 2016 Stanley Cup Champion Matt Murray of the Pittsburgh Penguins, St. Louis Blues netminder Carter Hutton, 2015-16 OHL Goaltender of the Year and First All-Star Team Mackenzie Blackwood 

So at least our kids are in good hands .. I read recently some NHL teams inquired about him for the big league job .. if we're not careful we could lose him 

Unless you have ever met the man or worked with him, you shouldn't be making all these accusations and assumptions like "has photos of someone" to keep his job.

Also if you have a guy like Zulianello on the farm keep him there because that is where the real work is done not at the NHL level.

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Unless you have ever met the man or worked with him, you shouldn't be making all these accusations and assumptions like "has photos of someone" to keep his job.

Also if you have a guy like Zulianello on the farm keep him there because that is where the real work is done not at the NHL level.

 

Yeah, I don't think that's fair.  I don't think he has done a great job, but I think the Flames have kept him around because they are a moral team.

They value hard work and personal connections over results.  

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Unless you have ever met the man or worked with him, you shouldn't be making all these accusations and assumptions like "has photos of someone" to keep his job.

Also if you have a guy like Zulianello on the farm keep him there because that is where the real work is done not at the NHL level.

I'm sure he's an awesome human being , and his story is quite literally inspiring , but his body of work does not do him any credit to still be here after 3 coaches and 3 GM's. He is quite literally the senior member of the Flames Coaching family , I'm pretty sure maybe only Jamie Pringle has been here longer 

[MAC331]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Yeah, I don't think that's fair.  I don't think he has done a great job, but I think the Flames have kept him around because they are a moral team.

They value hard work and personal connections over results.  

I doubt that as well.

[MAC331]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

I'm sure he's an awesome human being , and his story is quite literally inspiring , but his body of work does not do him any credit to still be here after 3 coaches and 3 GM's. He is quite literally the senior member of the Flames Coaching family , I'm pretty sure maybe only Jamie Pringle has been here longer 

Did you ever stop to think he does his overall job very well. We have had a number of not so great goalies lately that IMO were never going to be anything fantastic. There are times a coach can suggest changing something but the player doesn't adapt, you will never force people to change. At the NHL level with goalies like Elliott or Johnson you won't change them, it's like Elliott said in the article you provided, he didn't adapt his mental game enough to the tendencies of his new defensemen. Both Elliott and Johnson showed very good fundamentals in their play. Was Sigalet here when Kipper was here ?

[Carty]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Was Sigalet here when Kipper was here ?

 

No, and I'm thankful that he wasn't...

 

So far Sigalet's track record has been abysmal...    Can't get any worse than batting zero...

 

On the bright side though, if he stays around maybe he can learn a few things about goaltending from Smith...

 

Even better, maybe after Smith retires he can replace Sigalet...

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Did you ever stop to think he does his overall job very well. We have had a number of not so great goalies lately that IMO were never going to be anything fantastic. There are times a coach can suggest changing something but the player doesn't adapt, you will never force people to change. At the NHL level with goalies like Elliott or Johnson you won't change them, it's like Elliott said in the article you provided, he didn't adapt his mental game enough to the tendencies of his new defensemen. Both Elliott and Johnson showed very good fundamentals in their play. Was Sigalet here when Kipper was here ?

 

On August 3, 2011 Sigalet was hired as a goaltending coach for the Abbotsford Heat of the American Hockey League.

On August 19, 2014, the Calgary Flames of the National Hockey League announced Sigalet as their new goalie coach.

 

His body of work in the Flames organization is all I am looking at.  His impact on games was not just coaching the goalies but also weighing in on who the starter was going to be.  If you are a big fan of him, I'm not going to argue with you.  I just think his results here justify him being kept on.  I can see them not switching all the coaching staff at the same time, but Gully will probably have some say in whether he gets to stay past this year.

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Did you ever stop to think he does his overall job very well. We have had a number of not so great goalies lately that IMO were never going to be anything fantastic. There are times a coach can suggest changing something but the player doesn't adapt, you will never force people to change. At the NHL level with goalies like Elliott or Johnson you won't change them, it's like Elliott said in the article you provided, he didn't adapt his mental game enough to the tendencies of his new defensemen. Both Elliott and Johnson showed very good fundamentals in their play. Was Sigalet here when Kipper was here ?

nope he was on the farm primarily responsible for Irving.

The notable names he has been responsible for :

Leland Irving - could not make transition to NHL
Joni Ortio - dd not make transition to NHL
Jonas Hiller - 1 good season , face plant second season 
Kari Ramo - might be his one success story.. due to injury we will never know, but he was improving 
Reto Berra - played better for other teams. Francois Allaire got the best out of him 
Brian Elliot - eventually adapted his play 
Chad Johnson- play declined as the season went on 

[Carty]

From:   https://www.nhl.com/news/flames-expect-mike-smith-to-provide-boost/c-290028350

 

Quote

Gaudreau said he's looking forward to having Smith and his puck-moving skills on the Flames.

 

"I'm just excited for 3-on-3 [overtime] with him," Gaudreau said. "It will be like 4-on-3 hockey with him."

 

Flames captain Mark Giordano, a finalist for the Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award (won Tuesday by Columbus Blue Jackets forward Nick Foligno), said the trade for Smith has already had an effect.

 

"Anytime there's a move within the organization and a big-name player comes in, you get that instant boost and guys will get that boost," Giordano said. "We're excited. We feel like we have a young team, a young core that can do a lot of good things in the coming years."

 

Giordano said his own game may benefit from Smith's abilities.

 

"You'd like to think so," he said. "You might have to game-plan a little bit to get open for him because he can really fire it down the ice. I know playing against him, you try to keep the puck away from him as much as possible."

 

[MAC331]

30 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

No, and I'm thankful that he wasn't...

 

So far Sigalet's track record has been abysmal...    Can't get any worse than batting zero...

 

On the bright side though, if he stays around maybe he can learn a few things about goaltending from Smith...

 

Even better, maybe after Smith retires he can replace Sigalet...

Who in your mind has he had to work with that should have been exceptional ?

[MAC331]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

On August 3, 2011 Sigalet was hired as a goaltending coach for the Abbotsford Heat of the American Hockey League.

On August 19, 2014, the Calgary Flames of the National Hockey League announced Sigalet as their new goalie coach.

 

His body of work in the Flames organization is all I am looking at.  His impact on games was not just coaching the goalies but also weighing in on who the starter was going to be.  If you are a big fan of him, I'm not going to argue with you.  I just think his results here justify him being kept on.  I can see them not switching all the coaching staff at the same time, but Gully will probably have some say in whether he gets to stay past this year.

Neither fan nor foe just that I have coached many athletes and from what has seen coming through here he hasn't had much to work with or as you point out who to play on a given night. All I was trying to point out was that at this level especially with goalies 2 to 3 years into the league you won't teach them much. A coach can preach and remind about fundamentals if he sees his goalies getting away from them but the mental game is up to the individuals.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, Carty said:

From:   https://www.nhl.com/news/flames-expect-mike-smith-to-provide-boost/c-290028350

 

 

 

It's nice to hear something positive from the players.  I think they have big expextations, and may be suffering from a big let down at the end of the season and hope that Smith is a guy that can come in and win games on his own.

[redfire11]

Last season Smith did take 2 points and 2 ROWs from us in 5 games

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Neither fan nor foe just that I have coached many athletes and from what has seen coming through here he hasn't had much to work with or as you point out who to play on a given night. All I was trying to point out was that at this level especially with goalies 2 to 3 years into the league you won't teach them much. A coach can preach and remind about fundamentals if he sees his goalies getting away from them but the mental game is up to the individuals.

 

The goalie coach is going to work with whatever one is performing sub par.  It's more than just preach and remind.  It's recognizing the areas of the game that need work.  It's spending time with them in the video room.  It's working with them on their confidence.  

 

Anybody can coach.  Some have the insight and skill to bring out the best in any player.  What I am suggesting is that given the results, regardless of who they have had, it's time to make that change.  If we bring in Rittich or Gillies to backup Smith, or get a near-ready starter to backup, then we need someone that can achieve better results.