Goaltending

[darth_henning]

As a back up goalie that's not a terrible record. He also had somewhere between 3-5 games where he only let in 2 in losses.

When we had Kipper, if our backup was able to do that, we would have had a rested Kipper and an extra 17 points

 

The win-loss for a ratio can be very misleading IMHO. 

 

A goalie can post a 9.6 and 1 GA and get a loss if the other guy gets a shutout, while posting a win with a 0.56 and a 7 GA in an 8-7 game or river hockey. Which game did the goalie play better? 

 

 

In point of fact on Ortio, these are his games since callup. 

 

0.818 - 2 GA - L

0.946 - 2 GA - L

0.941 - 2 GA - O

0.800 - 5 GA - L

0.920 - 2 GA - L

0.035 - 2 GA - W

0.913 - 2 GA - O

0.923 - 2 GA - W

0.880 - 3 GA - L

0.886 - 4 GA - W

0.966 - 1 GA - W

0.893 - 3 GA - O

0.920 - 2 GA - L

0.917 - 2 GA - W

0.897 - 3 GA - L

1.000 - 0 GA - W

0.808 - 5 GA - O

 

11 of 17 games have had 2 or fewer goals against. That's not bad in any way shape or form. 

 

And yet his record in those 11 games? 5-4-2. Only slightly better than 50%. Not stellar, but pretty decent. 

 

In the other 6 games (with 3+ goals) he has a record of 1-3-2 which is a lot more logical when that number of goals is going past you. But still lower than I'd like to see when his record in 3 goal games is 0-2-1. 

 

 

His consistency needs work, but on the whole, in his first real sustained taste of NHL action, he's looking like a capable backup. Whether he progresses to more than that? Remains to be seen. 

[kehatch]

Even ignoring Ortio's numbers before his last call up he still only has a SV% of .909.  That is the same as Ramo's full season number and is far from stellar.  But the reality is his season long SV% is .903.  That puts him below Talbot, Bernier, Bobrovsky, Miller, Pavelec, Smith, etc.  In most cases well below.  All teams in the bottom, which pretty much eliminates the 'team in front of him is bad' excuse.  

 

I know JJ doesn't like the timing of these comments.  But this isn't the first or only time people have been saying this.  We were saying it after a good game.  We are saying it now.  In fact, it wouldn't have taken much for a goalie to come in and get the fans super positive.  Goaltending has been so dire this season we have been looking for someone to step up.  The fact people are luke warm on Ortio is further evidence that he hasn't been very good this season.  

 

He has shown me enough that I am at least willing to give him a contract and bring him to camp.  But not so much that I am not at least looking for a better alternative for the second goalie spot.  He certainly hasn't shown me enough that I am willing to pair him with an unknown or consider him for the starter position.  Not even close.  

 

Hopefully he plays well tonight in his final game so he can go out on a high note.  It shouldn't be tough against a Vancouver team that is mailing it in. 

[MAC331]

Even ignoring Ortio's numbers before his last call up he still only has a SV% of .909.  That is the same as Ramo's full season number and is far from stellar.  But the reality is his season long SV% is .903.  That puts him below Talbot, Bernier, Bobrovsky, Miller, Pavelec, Smith, etc.  In most cases well below.  All teams in the bottom, which pretty much eliminates the 'team in front of him is bad' excuse.  

 

I know JJ doesn't like the timing of these comments.  But this isn't the first or only time people have been saying this.  We were saying it after a good game.  We are saying it now.  In fact, it wouldn't have taken much for a goalie to come in and get the fans super positive.  Goaltending has been so dire this season we have been looking for someone to step up.  The fact people are luke warm on Ortio is further evidence that he hasn't been very good this season.  

 

He has shown me enough that I am at least willing to give him a contract and bring him to camp.  But not so much that I am not at least looking for a better alternative for the second goalie spot.  He certainly hasn't shown me enough that I am willing to pair him with an unknown or consider him for the starter position.  Not even close.  

 

Hopefully he plays well tonight in his final game so he can go out on a high note.  It shouldn't be tough against a Vancouver team that is mailing it in. 

He has put himself in the running for next season is about all that can be said at this time.

[tmac70]

He has put himself in the running for next season is about all that can be said at this time.

If our future in net is Ortio, enjoy the bottom ever year. Ortio is not a starter in this league, backup maybe but not a #1 goalie.

[MAC331]

If our future in net is Ortio, enjoy the bottom ever year. Ortio is not a starter in this league, backup maybe but not a #1 goalie.

Did I say starter ? maybe he is maybe he isn't, with such small samples of his play what makes you an expert on how he takes this current experience into next season ? Opportunity is what people make out it.

[darth_henning]

Even ignoring Ortio's numbers before his last call up he still only has a SV% of .909.  That is the same as Ramo's full season number and is far from stellar.  But the reality is his season long SV% is .903.  That puts him below Talbot, Bernier, Bobrovsky, Miller, Pavelec, Smith, etc.  In most cases well below.  All teams in the bottom, which pretty much eliminates the 'team in front of him is bad' excuse.  

 

I know JJ doesn't like the timing of these comments.  But this isn't the first or only time people have been saying this.  We were saying it after a good game.  We are saying it now.  

 

OH I'm not going to claim that he's been stellar, just better than his win-loss numbers would suggest by themselves. 

 

He's performed (since call-up) at a decent backup save%. Not great, not terrible. But also not wonderful. Merely acceptable. 

 

The difference between him and Ramo is that Ramo is near the end of his career in the NHL, Ortio is just starting. He's put up better numbers in other leagues, and his numbers in the NHL may well improve. 

 

If they do? Fantastic. If they don't? He's still a backup that won't hurt the team. Roughly 50% as a backup isn't stellar, but it is fine for that role. 

 

 

If our future in net is Ortio, enjoy the bottom ever year. Ortio is not a starter in this league, backup maybe but not a #1 goalie.

 

Currently? No. 

 

The future? Unlikely, but I wouldn't be predicting ceiling on a goalie who has only played a stretch of NHL games greater than 5 once. 

[robrob1974]

OH I'm not going to claim that he's been stellar, just better than his win-loss numbers would suggest by themselves.

He's performed (since call-up) at a decent backup save%. Not great, not terrible. But also not wonderful. Merely acceptable.

The difference between him and Ramo is that Ramo is near the end of his career in the NHL, Ortio is just starting. He's put up better numbers in other leagues, and his numbers in the NHL may well improve.

If they do? Fantastic. If they don't? He's still a backup that won't hurt the team. Roughly 50% as a backup isn't stellar, but it is fine for that role.

Currently? No.

The future? Unlikely, but I wouldn't be predicting ceiling on a goalie who has only played a stretch of NHL games greater than 5 once.

I get what you're saying. But a good backup goalie gives his team a chance to win. I get the numbers and having a 2.00 GAA in about 5 of his losses should get him a few more wins, but the reality is, teams play different in front of their backups, and we aren't necessarily accounting for coaching changes where Hartley may have decided to be more defensive in the game which would hinder the output in offence.

All I was saying is, his win-loss itself is a decent record for a backup.

Another variable we aren't looking at is the fact that this record and GAA/S% is in a condensed sample size. If a starter stays healthy and Ortio is backup, his games will be more spread out and who knows what he will be like with sporadic starts.

[darth_henning]

I get what you're saying. But a good backup goalie gives his team a chance to win. I get the numbers and having a 2.00 GAA in about 5 of his losses should get him a few more wins, but the reality is, teams play different in front of their backups, and we aren't necessarily accounting for coaching changes where Hartley may have decided to be more defensive in the game which would hinder the output in offence.

All I was saying is, his win-loss itself is a decent record for a backup.

Another variable we aren't looking at is the fact that this record and GAA/S% is in a condensed sample size. If a starter stays healthy and Ortio is backup, his games will be more spread out and who knows what he will be like with sporadic starts.

 

That's a very important question. And none of us know the answer to it. 

 

Personally next season I'd sort of like to see us start the season like we did with Hiller and Ramo in 14/15, Essentially alternating games.

 

That way both goalies are somewhat rested, but also not out of action very long. See how they both perform. If Ortio steps up and we wind up with a tandem? great. If he is outplayed, then drop his games back and hope he can keep fresh. 

[robrob1974]

That's a very important question. And none of us know the answer to it.

Personally next season I'd sort of like to see us start the season like we did with Hiller and Ramo in 14/15, Essentially alternating games.

That way both goalies are somewhat rested, but also not out of action very long. See how they both perform. If Ortio steps up and we wind up with a tandem? great. If he is outplayed, then drop his games back and hope he can keep fresh.

If we go that route, I want them to give a string of starts rather than alternate every game.

Give 2-3 games in a row. I'd rather a goalie get on a roll than have them alternate losses.

I think that's why Ramo's play improved.

A starter can be okay in a loss and realize he is still getting the next game, whereas this year, each goalie wasn't that sure and I think that insecurity crept up into their games. That's all 3 goalies.

So I think give both goalies 3 starts each.

Or you can go:

Goalie1. 3 games

Goalie2. 2 games

Goalie1. 2 games

Goalie2. 3 games

They get to play and not sit too long and maybe see what they have.

But they know they get a next start after playing one game.

[MAC331]

If we go that route, I want them to give a string of starts rather than alternate every game.

Give 2-3 games in a row. I'd rather a goalie get on a roll than have them alternate losses.

I think that's why Ramo's play improved.

A starter can be okay in a loss and realize he is still getting the next game, whereas this year, each goalie wasn't that sure and I think that insecurity crept up into their games. That's all 3 goalies.

So I think give both goalies 3 starts each.

Or you can go:

Goalie1. 3 games

Goalie2. 2 games

Goalie1. 2 games

Goalie2. 3 games

They get to play and not sit too long and maybe see what they have.

But they know they get a next start after playing one game.

Hopefully BH learned from this year not to try the alternating game deal again. Depending on who we end up with BH will need to establish who the go to goalie is going to be right from the start.

[cross16]

I agree, i don't like the alternating. In Hartley's defence, neither Ramo nor Hiller really gave him another option with both playing so poorly to start the year but I do think you need a goalie to get in a bit of a zone. alternating in and out prevents that and because so much of what a goalie does is feel, angles and confidence i don't think you'll ever get the best out of your goalies by alternating them. What Hartley did last season with HIller/Ramo is VERY rare and that was my point last offseason that it wasn't likely to happen again. Its really tough to rotate 2 goalies.

 

I think you bring in competition for Ortio and see who rises up. Let them push each other and battle it out for the net but give each a few games early on to try and get going. 

[darth_henning]

Sorry "alternating games" was the wrong term. I didn't mean swap literally every game. I just meant a regular rotation of playing time like two years ago.

[robrob1974]

The one thing I think that makes it dangerous is the whole notion of, "if you win, you play." That can be troublesome because it can get into their head and worry too much about getting the next start. Goalies need confidence and that system can get in a goalies' head and affect how he plays.

[DirtyDeeds]

The one thing I think that makes it dangerous is the whole notion of, "if you win, you play." That can be troublesome because it can get into their head and worry too much about getting the next start. Goalies need confidence and that system can get in a goalies' head and affect how he plays.

This is not uncommon for teams to go "if you win you play".  Depends what their tandem makeup is like.

 

The teams that have solid Starters and questionable backups usually go with the 1 Starter except for spell offs like back to backs.

[MAC331]

This is not uncommon for teams to go "if you win you play".  Depends what their tandem makeup is like.

 

The teams that have solid Starters and questionable backups usually go with the 1 Starter except for spell offs like back to backs.

Most of the successful teams identify the horse they are going to ride and use the back up enough not to get stale.

[darth_henning]

If you win you play makes sense....to a point. 

 

You don't want to only play a goalie if he's winning because then it gets in their head, and for the same reason you can't sotop playing them after a single loss. 

 

That's why I like a rotation idea. They each know they have a stretch of games coming up and can focus on doing as well as they can without worrying about their future. 

[Flyerfan52]

OH I'm not going to claim that he's been stellar, just better than his win-loss numbers would suggest by themselves. 

 

He's performed (since call-up) at a decent backup save%. Not great, not terrible. But also not wonderful. Merely acceptable. 

 

The difference between him and Ramo is that Ramo is near the end of his career in the NHL, Ortio is just starting. He's put up better numbers in other leagues, and his numbers in the NHL may well improve. 

 

If they do? Fantastic. If they don't? He's still a backup that won't hurt the team. Roughly 50% as a backup isn't stellar, but it is fine for that role. 

 

 

 

Currently? No. 

 

The future? Unlikely, but I wouldn't be predicting ceiling on a goalie who has only played a stretch of NHL games greater than 5 once. 

Decent backup. Hmm, I prefer a backup a little higher up the chain like Montoya who actually is paid less than #s being tossed around for Ortio. (1.05)

Unless you have a goalie with more than average prospects to be an excellent backup who you don't believe has what it takes to be a dang good starter he's minor league depth @ best. For now he might be filler/given a chance to earn a job but certainly not the priority jj seems to think he should be.

We need a starter now & can develop a future 1 by playing him as backup. Using someone we doubt will be an NHLer as either just wastes time.

[420since1974]

Decent backup. Hmm, I prefer a backup a little higher up the chain like Montoya who actually is paid less than #s being tossed around for Ortio. (1.05)

Unless you have a goalie with more than average prospects to be an excellent backup who you don't believe has what it takes to be a dang good starter he's minor league depth @ best. For now he might be filler/given a chance to earn a job but certainly not the priority jj seems to think he should be.

We need a starter now & can develop a future 1 by playing him as backup. Using someone we doubt will be an NHLer as either just wastes time.

 

 

100% agree on the bolded text.

 

The last thing that I want to see next season, is two goalies with less than 100 NHL games between them, attempting to become Calgary's #1.

 

The Flames need a true starter for at least a couple of years, until the team's prospects in goal prove themselves at the AHL level.

 

Whether or not they can fit one under the Cap next season is another matter altogether.

[DirtyDeeds]

100% agree on the bolded text.

 

The last thing that I want to see next season, is two goalies with less than 100 NHL games between them, attempting to become Calgary's #1.

 

The Flames need a true starter for at least a couple of years, until the team's prospects in goal prove themselves at the AHL level.

 

Whether or not they can fit one under the Cap next season is another matter altogether.

You would think that with 8.3mil(just Hiller and Ramo) coming off the goaltending books that the Flames would be able to set 5-6mil aside for a Starting goalie, wouldn't you? Backstrom didn't and won't count against our books next season. So assume they will sign Ortio to a small and short contract.

 

I don't agree with those of you who have already robbed Peter to pay Paul. Take all the Goaltending wages and pay JH and Monahan.

Goaltending should have roughly it's own % of the budget and not have to worry about other positions.

 

Most of the JH & Monahan money can be from things like, increased cap, the trade of Huds and Jones, along with the precision trading of a few other overpriced players. (Maybe Smid, Wideman, Bouma, for example.)

[420since1974]

I don't feel that any of us can deal in absolutes.

There's just too many Cap variables that are up in the air right now.

 

How large of raises do Colborne, Gaudreau, & Monahan receive?

Can BT move any of the 5 or 6 "unfavorable" contracts?

 

That said, I can see the Flames being able to afford at least $4.5M for a starting goalie, maybe as much as $6.5M if several things fall into place.

 

I feel that Orito can be re-signed on the cheap for less than $1M.

His required QO is only $660k.

[CheersMan]

There you have it.  That concludes our two best goaltenders this season.

 

[darth_henning]

I don't feel that any of us can deal in absolutes.

There's just too many Cap variables that are up in the air right now.

 

How large of raises do Colborne, Gaudreau, & Monahan receive?

Can BT move any of the 5 or 6 "unfavorable" contracts?

 

That said, I can see the Flames being able to afford at least $4.5M for a starting goalie, maybe as much as $6.5M if several things fall into place.

 

I feel that Orito can be re-signed on the cheap for less than $1M.

His required QO is only $660k.

 

This. 

 

Even at the high end for Gaudreau/Monahan and an average-ish contract for Colborne, we still have space for 4.5 mil for goal. 

 

Yes, that's going to limit our upgrade options on RW, but securing a starter is WAY more important than a top 6 winger if we don't draft one. Scoring hasn't been the issue, goals against ha been. 

 

Ortio I suspect falls roughly around the 800K range if I had to guess. 

[DirtyDeeds]

 

Some of you can cross him off your watch lists.

[phoenix66]

Some of you can cross him off your watch lists.

Could one day make the Battle of Alberta more interesting!

[Carty]

Just another BS rumour out of Edmonchuk...

 

If the Flames traded Bennett for Bishop I would be choked...   I would like it if the Flames could land Bishop, but not for Bennett...