Sven Baertschi

[oldschool17]

I haven't even graduated from university and I'm already a greybeard? Damn, the age cutoff line must be getting lower by the minute. Oh well, I can ease into retirement watching reruns of my old favorites like "Samurai Jack" and "Dexter's Laboratory" now.

Just in case, here's a "/sarcasm" for you so you don't take it literally. Just because I'm articulate doesn't automatically make me old.

@oldschool, one-way hits, if said player is subject to waivers and is sent down and passes through waivers, are negated from the current team's cap hit (i.e. Wade Redden). I'm not totally sure on this but as long as that player is playing in the AHL and not the NHL, the cap hit should be knocked off his NHL team's books. Of course, many teams dislike the idea of paying an AHLer 6M per season which is why the "re-entry" rules exist, to give the team a chance to save some money and get rid of unwanted contracts.

All a one-way contract does is ensure the player gets paid the same regardless of where he's playing. That's it. Oftentimes people confuse that with "waiver-eligibility" but waivers run under a different category. Which is why even some two-way contracted players can be subject to waivers.

Thank you for the clarification. I've often wondered why more teams dont do that then.

[kehatch]

In the existing CBA a 2-way contract has a different dollar figure for the AHL and NHL. It doesn't establish waiver eligibility. That is established based on age, signing age, and games played.

Any player can be assigned to an affiliate league regardless of their contract (on exception). If they are waiver eligible they must pass waivers to get there (other teams can claim him for nothing). If that player is recalled they must pass through reentry waivers if they make x amount of dollars in the AHL (essentially if they are on a 1 way contract).

If a player has been reassigned to the AHL their contract doesn't impact the cap. Though they must be paid.

The one exception is players on a full NMC. A NMC is a NTC that also excludes the clubs ability to place them in an affiliate league.

One thing to remember is that this is all part of the CBA. So it may all change next season. It wouldn't surprise me to see additional rules about assigning veteran players to the AHL. Owners don't like it. It is waisted money, and many can't afford it. Players don't like it. They don't want to ride the bus in a second tier league.

[oldschool17]

In the existing CBA a 2-way contract has a different dollar figure for the AHL and NHL. It doesn't establish waiver eligibility. That is established based on age, signing age, and games played.

Any player can be assigned to an affiliate league regardless of their contract (on exception). If they are waiver eligible they must pass waivers to get there (other teams can claim him for nothing). If that player is recalled they must pass through reentry waivers if they make x amount of dollars in the AHL (essentially if they are on a 1 way contract).

If a player has been reassigned to the AHL their contract doesn't impact the cap. Though they must be paid.

The one exception is players on a full NMC. A NMC is a NTC that also excludes the clubs ability to place them in an affiliate league.

One thing to remember is that this is all part of the CBA. So it may all change next season. It wouldn't surprise me to see additional rules about assigning veteran players to the AHL. Owners don't like it. It is waisted money, and many can't afford it. Players don't like it. They don't want to ride the bus in a second tier league.

Makes your wonder why an amnesty buyout clause wasn't suggested in that ridiculous proposal by the owners. That would at least made more sense than most of their initial proposals. I know it is a negotiation and that was a lowball figure thrown out but as a fan I'm a bit offended by it let alone how the players would feel.

As a fan I'm offended because te owners and the league do very little to agree on players' safety, Bettman is making all the other teams essentially pay to keep a franchise in Glendale which there was no argument from owners, and the figures and numbers were not even close to reasonable. As a fan I'm offended because it did nothing to progress the negotiations so we can avoid a work stoppage.

[s4xon]

So what are this young star's chances of cracking the lineup? I understand camp hasn't started. Looking at the roster so far, it seems plausible.

[C_worthy]

So what are this young star's chances of cracking the lineup? I understand camp hasn't started. Looking at the roster so far, it seems plausible.

Baertschi?

95% - unless he gets injured or completely craps the bed, he will be on the opening night roster.

[Tirosho24]

Baertschi?

95% - unless he gets injured or completely craps the bed, he will be on the opening night roster.

Even if it's just a 9-game stint, he'll be on the roster. Feaster has pretty much said they already have him pencilled into the lineup for this year already. He was saying that during his call-up last year.

[C_worthy]

Even if it's just a 9-game stint, he'll be on the roster. Feaster has pretty much said they already have him pencilled into the lineup for this year already. He was saying that during his call-up last year.

A 9-game stint is not a relevant factor for Baertschi

Those are for junior-age players, whereby if they play more than 9 games, a year of their contract is triggered, and, if not, it "slides"

Bertschi's contract will be triggered whether he plays in Abby or here - no slide available.

[energie34]

I don't understand why people want to send him to the ahl . He has already provenhimself and deserves a spot on the roster...

[403Loyalty]

Even if it's just a 9-game stint, he'll be on the roster. Feaster has pretty much said they already have him pencilled into the lineup for this year already. He was saying that during his call-up last year.

Just to help clarify on Feaster, he did repeat this in the Season ticket holder lunchion this year by saying Sven can only Lose the roster spot.

[Crzydrvr]

I don't understand why people want to send him to the ahl . He has already provenhimself and deserves a spot on the roster...

So did Ryan Getzlaf, still didn't stop Anaheim from sending him to the AHL for 17 games so he could score 33 points....look how well he turned out. And he wasn't as touted a prospect at that time as Sven is now.

It's a development process. Do I think he's ready? You bet I do. But he's played all of 5 games at the pro level. I doubt there's anyone who believes that a little experience at the professional level, as a top line player playing big minutes in all situations for a farm team is a bad thing.

It builds confidence. If he's really all that then he'll force us to move a body to get him roster time in the NHL regardless. He hasn't proven anything yet. He's going to be like 50 other guys and come into camp looking to earn a spot just like everyone else.

[Zirakzigil]

I don't understand why people want to send him to the ahl . He has already provenhimself and deserves a spot on the roster...

Because if there are issues with parts of his game that will keep him from being a regular in the NHL he needs to go to the AHL. He should make the opening roster. But if the Flames start to notice bad habits or parts of his game he needs work on while playing against NHL talent its better to let him work on it in the AHL where they can focus on developing him then the NHL where they want the best players on the ice to win games.

[Carty]

So, Z... What issues do you see with Baertschi that make him that much different than others that have made the grade?

[403Loyalty]

I think there is far too much pressure on Feaster and co to have Sven play as soon as possible. the demand for young talent and the youth movement in the line up has been vocal for a number of years now. With the 5 games Sven played and how he performed it left little doubt in their minds that he is ready. Its now up to Sven to show in Camp he still is.

[Carty]

I think there is far too much pressure on Feaster and co to have Sven play as soon as possible. the demand for young talent and the youth movement in the line up has been vocal for a number of years now. With the 5 games Sven played and how he performed it left little doubt in their minds that he is ready. Its now up to Sven to show in Camp he still is.

I think Sven will deliver the goods..

[Zirakzigil]

So, Z... What issues do you see with Baertschi that make him that much different than others that have made the grade?

Consistency, defensive play, size. It could be a lot of things. Our roster is overall pretty soft and smallish. The Flames could feel after X number of games that its just not worth the risk of serious injury having him play and get knocked around like Hall has the past few years. Without seeing the starting line up its hard to say. Heck he could go cold and not get any points for a long streak and get sent down. The kids 19, Im not expecting big things from him for 2-3 years at the least.

[jjgallow]

Consistency, defensive play, size. It could be a lot of things. Our roster is overall pretty soft and smallish. The Flames could feel after X number of games that its just not worth the risk of serious injury having him play and get knocked around like Hall has the past few years. Without seeing the starting line up its hard to say. Heck he could go cold and not get any points for a long streak and get sent down. The kids 19, Im not expecting big things from him for 2-3 years at the least.

Absolutely.

In my gut, I feel that Baertschi will contend for the calder cup this year and may win it.

However, if my gut were right all the time, I'd be a billionaire and I'd own the Flames.

He's a kid. Very, very rarely do kids his age pull it off. Even out of the ones that do pull it off (like Hall, Hopkins), many of them would have been better off waiting as well.

Baertschi has had injuries and concussions.

I want him to succeed this year, but what I want even more, is for him to complete an entire season without injury. At Any level.

We'll know more at training camp.

p.s...Even if he becomes the future cornerstone of our franchise, he's not turning this ship around at 19/20 years of age. He may eventually be a big part of turning this ship around, but we should not expect this season to hinge on him.

[s4xon]

Consistency, defensive play.

Those are 2 things that have been showcased by the young Swiss. Who else do you know in the NHL's prospect pool that averages 2 points a game even after a season changing concussion?

The defensive play was evident in his call up last year. He was back-checking every shift. The Flames' drive and compete was heightened when he made the jump into the roster those 5 games. When he left, the team deflated and continued their spotty losing streak.

As for getting knocked around, he's a smart kid. Hall was a number 1 pick. So was RNH, so was Crosby. These guys have a target on their back because they are number 1 picks. It comes with the territory. If teams were worried about having their prospects hit, there wouldn't be any progression to the NHL until they were 25 and fully grown.

[Flyerfan52]

There's a thread on HF (started by a Flames fan) wondering about Sven for Couturier.

Any thoughts?

[Zirakzigil]

Those are 2 things that have been showcased by the young Swiss. Who else do you know in the NHL's prospect pool that averages 2 points a game even after a season changing concussion?

The defensive play was evident in his call up last year. He was back-checking every shift. The Flames' drive and compete was heightened when he made the jump into the roster those 5 games. When he left, the team deflated and continued their spotty losing streak.

As for getting knocked around, he's a smart kid. Hall was a number 1 pick. So was RNH, so was Crosby. These guys have a target on their back because they are number 1 picks. It comes with the territory. If teams were worried about having their prospects hit, there wouldn't be any progression to the NHL until they were 25 and fully grown.

There is a huge difference in being an emergency call up and playing like you have nothing to lose, cause you dont have anything to lose, and playing to earn your spot. Sven played very well in a limited role in limit games, that doesnt meant that will transition over to 82 games in the NHL. He is going to struggle and go through highs and lows, thats the nature of development in a young kid. Sven is a smart kid, Im not denying that. But he also will be targeted and knocked around regardless. But if the Flames are not looking good this year and if Sven is starting to take a beating dont be surprised if he gets sent down. There is no point risking serious injury to one of our top prospects for no reason. People were expecting Backlund to come out and be top 6 right off the bat, now hes going through a low in his development and lots of people want him gone now. How many fans are going to trade Sven the same way? Until hes about 23-24 we should be staying optimistic about him but not adding unrealistic expectations on a guy who just grew out of his teens.

Those are 2 things that have been showcased by the young Swiss. Who else do you know in the NHL's prospect pool that averages 2 points a game even after a season changing concussion?

The defensive play was evident in his call up last year. He was back-checking every shift. The Flames' drive and compete was heightened when he made the jump into the roster those 5 games. When he left, the team deflated and continued their spotty losing streak.

As for getting knocked around, he's a smart kid. Hall was a number 1 pick. So was RNH, so was Crosby. These guys have a target on their back because they are number 1 picks. It comes with the territory. If teams were worried about having their prospects hit, there wouldn't be any progression to the NHL until they were 25 and fully grown.

There is a huge difference in being an emergency call up and playing like you have nothing to lose, cause you dont have anything to lose, and playing to earn your spot. Sven played very well in a limited role in limit games, that doesnt meant that will transition over to 82 games in the NHL. He is going to struggle and go through highs and lows, thats the nature of development in a young kid. Sven is a smart kid, Im not denying that. But he also will be targeted and knocked around regardless. But if the Flames are not looking good this year and if Sven is starting to take a beating dont be surprised if he gets sent down. There is no point risking serious injury to one of our top prospects for no reason. People were expecting Backlund to come out and be top 6 right off the bat, now hes going through a low in his development and lots of people want him gone now. How many fans are going to trade Sven the same way? Until hes about 23-24 we should be staying optimistic about him but not adding unrealistic expectations on a guy who just grew out of his teens.

[Wreckening]

Agree 100% with Zirakzigil. I would like to see Sven developed properly. If that means starting the season in Abby then that's just the way it is. I understand where all the excitement comes from surrounding him, hell we haven't had much to cheer about the past few seasons, but we as fans also have to accept there is a good way and a bad way in developing prospects properly. I'd sooner let him light it up in the AHL for 25-30 games and build confidence then to have him come into the NHL and get knocked around and swallowed up by the speed of the game.

Ultimately we won't know anything until training camp even though management seems to think a roster spot is there for him to lose. If he kills it and proves he deserves the spot then I am all for it, but if his training camp is less than spectacular I really hope management does the right thing and send him to the Heat.

[s4xon]

There is a huge difference in being an emergency call up and playing like you have nothing to lose, cause you dont have anything to lose, and playing to earn your spot. Sven played very well in a limited role in limit games, that doesnt meant that will transition over to 82 games in the NHL. He is going to struggle and go through highs and lows, thats the nature of development in a young kid. Sven is a smart kid, Im not denying that. But he also will be targeted and knocked around regardless. But if the Flames are not looking good this year and if Sven is starting to take a beating dont be surprised if he gets sent down. There is no point risking serious injury to one of our top prospects for no reason. People were expecting Backlund to come out and be top 6 right off the bat, now hes going through a low in his development and lots of people want him gone now. How many fans are going to trade Sven the same way? Until hes about 23-24 we should be staying optimistic about him but not adding unrealistic expectations on a guy who just grew out of his teens.

I didn't say he would transition to 82 games based on his call up performance. I said his defensive play was evident in those 5 games. And every shift he played during that call up he had EVERYTHING to lose. It was obviously a test to see how he performed. Why else would they bypass every player on the AHL roster for a WHL prospect?

If the Flames aren't looking good this year? I beg to differ. Nothing is proven and we will have to see won't we?

As for the other prospects such as Backlund, he has spent a lot of time in the AHL. He's a decent player and I don't know many people who had him pegged for a top 6 spot. I never did. It's all opinion. But one thing I find, is our AHL system hasn't delivered us prospects ready to play in years. With the caliber of players drafted from Sutter, it's obvious why most haven't cracked the lineup permanently. Fester's staff seem to be bringing the best out of the draft and developmentally the current draftees seem to be picking up the game faster. In essence, Sven Baertschi.

Unrealistic expectations? I have full confidence (not an expectation) he will earn a roster spot. RNG, Eberle, Hall, Landeskog, Skinner, Huberdeau, and the list can go on, all have earned permanent roster spots and were just out of their teens, some in their teens. How is playing for the Flames, earning a permanent roster spot at the age of 20, any different? The until they are 23-24 age optimism is BS. If we have that thought process, Gaudreau will never make the roster, and it will be 7 year before we see Jankowski in the lineup.

If Sven does make the roster, it will be because he earned it, he deserves to be there, and because management deems him fit. I'll enjoy watching his progress, instead of worrying what will happen to him in an 82 game span.

[PokernHockey]

Unrealistic expectations? I have full confidence (not an expectation) he will earn a roster spot. RNG, Eberle, Hall, Landeskog, Skinner, Huberdeau, and the list can go on, all have earned permanent roster spots and were just out of their teens, some in their teens. How is playing for the Flames, earning a permanent roster spot at the age of 20, any different?

The bolded missed significant time because of injury before they were 20, Italics never played a game in the NHL until they were 20, and crossed out has never played a game in the NHL.

That is not really a convincing list for me for why we need to risk Sven's future by playing him this year.

Could he be ready? Yes, and if so, play him. However, the AHL would allow him to have more ice time, be more dominant which should increase his confidence, less risk of injury, and develop into a more complete player.

Based on his call up, I do think he is ready, but does anyone else remember him smash into the goal post in those 5 games? My biggest problem with playing kids is not necessarily the skill, it's the increased injury risk. Was RNH skilled enough to make the jump last year? Yes. But the Oilers now have a promising player with a history of injuries. Anyone who has hurt their shoulder before can tell you it doesn't ever go away.

In your mind, does Sven make up a cup contender compared to without him? If not, why would you risk a career for the instant gratification of seeing him all year.

Give him a few games to start/call ups (few enough that next year still counts as his rookie season). Unless he play's so well that the flames HAVE to keep him on the big club, what is so bad about giving him more development time. If you look at teams like the wings that normally get players to their potential you see very few players in their teens on the club, in fact Detroit is famous for how much "seasoning" their prospects get before making the jump.

They have had the luxury of having dominant teams so there was not room for the young guys on the roster, but the results speak for themselves.

The until they are 23-24 age optimism is BS. If we have that thought process, Gaudreau will never make the roster, and it will be 7 year before we see Jankowski in the lineup.

You expect at the age of 24 Gaudreau to no longer be able to keep up the game and will have missed his chance to play in the NHL? that is scary considering if he finishes his degree we wont see him until he is 22-23.

Also, it was suggested to temper your expectations until they are 23-24, not that they couldnt play before that age. Giving them permission to not be a superstar before they are 23-24 is bad for development in your mind?

[s4xon]

In your mind, does Sven make up a cup contender compared to without him? If not, why would you risk a career for the instant gratification of seeing him all year.

You expect at the age of 24 Gaudreau to no longer be able to keep up the game and will have missed his chance to play in the NHL? that is scary considering if he finishes his degree we wont see him until he is 22-23.

Also, it was suggested to temper your expectations until they are 23-24, not that they couldnt play before that age. Giving them permission to not be a superstar before they are 23-24 is bad for development in your mind?

Wow, too many double negatives in your blurb. If a player shows that he can play at the elite level, earns his spot, then yes, let him play.

Where did the cup contention come from?

If a player IS a superstar, do you suggest it's a bad thing to let him be one? By your intuition, 23-24 is the perfect time to let superstars break out of their development shells and start the arsenal of greatness.

I find it amusing that you insist I am the one "risking" his career because he is a joy to watch to everyone.

[PokernHockey]

Where did the cup contention come from?

If he is the make or break player for the Flames season, there is more reason to bring him up. As I said in that last post right after my sentence asking if you think he makes them a cup contender, if the flames fortunes are the same either way, why risk it.

I find it amusing that you insist I am the one "risking" his career because he is a joy to watch to everyone.

I never insisted you "were the one" to do anything. But the attitude that he has to play in the NHL just because he is a 'joy to watch' is exactly my point about risking injury for instant gratification. That ties into my question about him making the Flames a cup contender as well.

I pointed out what in my mind is the problem with your list of teen's who made the jump in my last post. Do you have a new list that is of stud teen rookies who did not get injuries before they were 20? I bet I can make a bigger list of players who played a more then half the games in a season before they were 20 and got injured than you can of players who did not have injuries.

If a player IS a superstar, do you suggest it's a bad thing to let him be one?

Where did I insinuate that? I never said that he can't be a superstar if he is one. But why does not having the expectation of him being one at 19 diminish his ability to be/become one? I would argue the opposite is the case. I believe I said, "if his play dictates the Flames have no choice but to give him a roster spot..." In my mind, superstar play would fall under that category.

But superstar play doesn't diminish the risk of him getting injured, in fact I would argue that it increases the risk since he will see more ice and play against players who have an increased interest in hurting him.

The increased risk of injuries are my argument against keeping him up for the season, not skill.

[s4xon]

I pointed out what in my mind is the problem with your list of teen's who made the jump in my last post. Do you have a new list that is of stud teen rookies who did not get injuries before they were 20? I bet I can make a bigger list of players who played a more then half the games in a season before they were 20 and got injured than you can of players who did not have injuries.

Making lists of who and who hasn't had injuries is pointless. I made a list to show that other teams have let young stars play, and why it's unreasonable to think the Flames shouldn't be included in that category. As for their injuries....welcome to the game of hockey. The injury argument is irrelevant. All hockey players get injuries throughout their playing careers. Heck, my son's team mate had a concussion in Hockey 4 (age 8-9). Not letting a younger player on to the roster because of injury risk is just a very deflated argument.