2024 NHL draft - A New Hope

[conundrumed]

30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Totally fair. I have a bias towards to the transition dmen and the more "modern" ones. 

 

It's not that I dislike Yakemchuk I just don't see him having a high ceiling in the pro game. I don't think his skating is good enough. 

I feel the same about Yakemchuk and feel he's the last of those 6 dmen, how I'd rank them, at least. Something like Levshunov, Dickinson, Buium, Parekh, Silayev, Yakemchuk. Jiricek, Hutson and Mews not too far removed around the Van pick.

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think there is a large difference between playing in the NHL as the son of a legend and playing in the same market (and a Canadian one to boost) as the son of a legend who also played in that market. For sure Tij is going to have to own the last name, but owning it while playing in Calgary is another beast. 

 

At the end of the day what this boils down to me is does Tij have a burning desire to be here. If he can't look me in the eye and basically beg me to draft him I'd take him off my board. 

Totally agree, and I'm agreeing form the "pro" side of drafting Tij.

 

A lot of experts in here on how drafting Tij will affect Tij.

 

Only person who really knows this, is Tij.    Ask him.

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think there is a large difference between playing in the NHL as the son of a legend and playing in the same market (and a Canadian one to boost) as the son of a legend who also played in that market. For sure Tij is going to have to own the last name, but owning it while playing in Calgary is another beast. 

 

At the end of the day what this boils down to me is does Tij have a burning desire to be here. If he can't look me in the eye and basically beg me to draft him I'd take him off my board. 

Totally agree, and I'm agreeing form the "pro" side of drafting Tij.

 

A lot of experts in here on how drafting Tij will affect Tij.

 

Only person who really knows this, is Tij.    Ask him.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Totally fair. I have a bias towards to the transition dmen and the more "modern" ones. 

 

It's not that I dislike Yakemchuk I just don't see him having a high ceiling in the pro game. I don't think his skating is good enough. 

 

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I feel the same about Yakemchuk and feel he's the last of those 6 dmen, how I'd rank them, at least. Something like Levshunov, Dickinson, Buium, Parekh, Silayev, Yakemchuk. Jiricek, Hutson and Mews not too far removed around the Van pick.

 

I feel Yakemchuk has the most rounded game out of Buium and Parekh.  He defends first.  He also has a good frame to grow into and should translate that grit to the NHL level well.  He's not fast but I think it's adequate... Like Tanev for example.  The type of game Tanev plays, he just needs to skate well enough.

 

I don't get Levshunov.  Highlights don't show much aside from the same repeat few goals.  He seems vanilla outside of those highlight reel plays.  Who is a comparable at the NHL level?

 

Silayev has the size but is he the next Zadorov?  Owen Power?  Feels like the classic trap.  Draft a 6'-7" D but doesn't have a complete game.

[cross16]

50 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I feel Yakemchuk has the most rounded game out of Buium and Parekh.  He defends first.  He also has a good frame to grow into and should translate that grit to the NHL level well.  He's not fast but I think it's adequate... Like Tanev for example.  The type of game Tanev plays, he just needs to skate well enough.

 

I don't get Levshunov.  Highlights don't show much aside from the same repeat few goals.  He seems vanilla outside of those highlight reel plays.  Who is a comparable at the NHL level?

 

Silayev has the size but is he the next Zadorov?  Owen Power?  Feels like the classic trap.  Draft a 6'-7" D but doesn't have a complete game.

for a big guy though, Tanev has great agility and awesome edge work. He can mirror guys in the d zone with his edges and agility.
from what I’ve seen this is where Yakemchuk struggles. no problem with his speed and how he joins the rush I just don’t think his feet are fast enough to be able to defend at a high level in the NHL.

think he can be a good pro just think that will limit him to 2nd pair or lower

 

small possibility he can work it out. I mean he’s a big guy for 18 so could make the case that will get better I just don’t think it tends to 

[redfire11]

It feels weird cheering for Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

It feels weird cheering for Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.

 

I always cheer for Arizona.  Have a soft spot for them.

I don't remember the last time I cheered on Pitts, maybe when they play the Oilers?

Ottawa, blech.

Montreal, merde.

I was a Montreal fans back when Yvan Cournoyer was a thing.

Back then you were either a Habs fan or you got beat up for wearing a Leafs hat.

Seattle is approaching the expansion the opposite as Vegas.

 

All in all it feels a little dirty cheering for teams to pass us.

A loss with Markstrom still in the net is really annoyiing at this stage.

Perhaps the coach has finally realized that 15 points behind with 11 games

is not a playoff team.  Running the table only gets us to 93.

Vegas only needs 4 wins and Nashville only needs 2 wins to eliminate us.

Our tragic number is 4, where 3 losses and 1 Vegas win eliminates us.

There are more combos but they include NAS and STL.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I feel Yakemchuk has the most rounded game out of Buium and Parekh.  He defends first.  He also has a good frame to grow into and should translate that grit to the NHL level well.  He's not fast but I think it's adequate... Like Tanev for example.  The type of game Tanev plays, he just needs to skate well enough.

 

I don't get Levshunov.  Highlights don't show much aside from the same repeat few goals.  He seems vanilla outside of those highlight reel plays.  Who is a comparable at the NHL level?

 

Silayev has the size but is he the next Zadorov?  Owen Power?  Feels like the classic trap.  Draft a 6'-7" D but doesn't have a complete game.

 

Often the 6'4 type D in the first round don't live up to the hype and never jump to the next level.  Not always of course.

 

I think a better strategy is to draft a guy who got his ranking on skill.    With a cutoff of course.    They shouldn't be diminutive in the 1st round either .

 

To me, if I were to pick a D who got his ranking solely on skill, Parakh comes out on top.    He's  not big, he does have warts.

 

Imho you take the warts and you live with the average size and you gamble on the skill.  Talent is the one thing that can't be taught.   The rest can, and you hope that it will be

 

 

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

I don't get Levshunov.  Highlights don't show much aside from the same repeat few goals.  He seems vanilla outside of those highlight reel plays.

I've seen a fair bit of him via the Big Ten Channel (BTC). He still has work to do defensively, but I'd say it's currently adequate when you take into account the rest of his game. Dude is a boss on the ice. Excellent skater in all facets, stunning O-qualities. Literally drives the offence. Good shot, though he is always finding lanes to attack the net or making a good set-up. You definitely wouldn't think, "freshman" watching MSU. He's their best player.

Consider this: He waltzed into the USHL at 17 (late birthday) from Belarus, threw up 42pts in 62 games as a new arrival to NA. Pretty much, "Blockchain this league" considering his circumstances. Waltzes into NCAA Div 1 at 18, 34 pts in 36 games and counting, "Blockchain this league" AGAinnn...even against the top teams he's one of the best players on the ice.

There is zero chance he goes beyond 3. Pretty much nobody, but nobody, comes to adjust to NA ice and wipes his feet on the top leagues. Dude is going places, he's already too good for the US' top "amateur" league.

He has literally made his 2 seasons of highly competitive hockey in NA look like child's play.

You draft him and try to convince his agent that there is zero reason to go back to MSU, hockey development-wise. We have no idea what his ceiling is, because the leagues he's visited so far don't seem to be challenging enough. He's already yelling at his teammates. lol Seriously need to consider that this cat needs more challenging leagues...already being the shocker.

With already possessing solid IQ, skating/edgework and O-smarts, some solid work on his defensive play, and I'd say that you're getting close to Seider with him. The difference being Seider will be a bit more physical, Levshunov a bit more O-flair.

Seider's a boss, and Levshunov is already bossy. lol

 

[conundrumed]

Although I should add, I'd much rather us land Helenius rather than a dman if that dman isn't Dickinson. Maybe not even then. Buium is really good, but I'd take Helenius personally. A potential Sebastian Aho is just way too enticing for me. Cs are near impossible to find. I think you can D by committee worst-case, whereas that's not the case at C.

I'd also target Sam O'Reilly in the 2nd round. Grab a couple that have different talent strengths.

I think, for examples, Makar has MacKinnon and Rantanen, Qughes has Miller and Pettersson, Fox has Panarin and Zibanejad. Exceptional dmen, but they're hardly on an island.

I think we need to get high-end talent up front. Elite D with middling talents at forward isn't going to make them look like elite D. They need teammates at a matching level.

[travel_dude]

43 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Although I should add, I'd much rather us land Helenius rather than a dman if that dman isn't Dickinson. Maybe not even then. Buium is really good, but I'd take Helenius personally. A potential Sebastian Aho is just way too enticing for me. Cs are near impossible to find. I think you can D by committee worst-case, whereas that's not the case at C.

I'd also target Sam O'Reilly in the 2nd round. Grab a couple that have different talent strengths.

I think, for examples, Makar has MacKinnon and Rantanen, Qughes has Miller and Pettersson, Fox has Panarin and Zibanejad. Exceptional dmen, but they're hardly on an island.

I think we need to get high-end talent up front. Elite D with middling talents at forward isn't going to make them look like elite D. They need teammates at a matching level.

 

The funny thing is we had better success drafting early by drafting forwards.  Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk.  We could have drafted Nurse or that guy that VAN drafted before Tkachuk.  I just don't know if we evaluate D in the right light.  We seem to be okay in 2nd rounders (for the most part).  Thje only D drafted in the first in the last 15 years are Valimaki and Erizon.  

 

Unless we win the draft lottery, the BPA C/F available is Helly.

How do you feel about Hage?

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

How do you feel about Hage?

I'm relatively dismissive of the USHL in the 1st rd. For the most part, minus playing for the US U18 team, the high end USHL guys were shredding that league at 16-17 and are drafted from their freshman U years. Just to put it into perspective. The avg talent that you're up against in the USHL is a decent handful below the CHL.

So I'm pretty dismissive of him as a 1st rder, where I can see many others aren't.

The top states in the US for hockey dev are Minny, Michigan and Massachusetts, in that order. Their commitment to having USHL teams in their states is fleeting, at best. Muskegon, Michigan? Really? lol Chicago is a rarity, in that they're actually in a city. It shows, most years. Just not this one.

[cberg]

For 2024 the Flames have already picked up multiple picks and players, so I would be extremely focused on trying to get 3 top quality players.  Between our 1st, the VCR 1st and Markstrom+ and potentially Anderson+ there are the building blocks for 3-4 top15 first round picks.  They could also toss in Mangiapanne, Kuzmenko and others, in addition to multiple 2-7 rounder picks.  
 

The goal would be to get a top- level Centre, Defenceman(s) and Winger with the 3-4 picks.  My targets would be Lindstrom(C), Yakemchuk(D) and Iginla(F).  There might be better choices but likely higher-ranked and out of reach.  If the Flames won the lottery of course Celebrini then I’d have to reconsider other picks, while if we ‘won’ but only went up 10 slots then one of the top Russian D.  In any case, make every effort to get quality versus quantity.

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, cberg said:

For 2024 the Flames have already picked up multiple picks and players, so I would be extremely focused on trying to get 3 top quality players.  Between our 1st, the VCR 1st and Markstrom+ and potentially Anderson+ there are the building blocks for 3-4 top15 first round picks.  They could also toss in Mangiapanne, Kuzmenko and others, in addition to multiple 2-7 rounder picks.  
 

The goal would be to get a top- level Centre, Defenceman(s) and Winger with the 3-4 picks.  My targets would be Lindstrom(C), Yakemchuk(D) and Iginla(F).  There might be better choices but likely higher-ranked and out of reach.  If the Flames won the lottery of course Celebrini then I’d have to reconsider other picks, while if we ‘won’ but only went up 10 slots then one of the top Russian D.  In any case, make every effort to get quality versus quantity.

Dude. We have 2 picks in the 1st rd. This dream of 3-4 in the top 15 is just ramblings and unrealistic.

I hate to be the stick in the mud, but 3-4 in the top 15 isn't even a maybe. We have 1.

That's way too much weight of expectation. Let's just go with, "here's what we know we have, right now."

I'm not trying to be insulting, but let's stay in our lane here. We can't trade everyone for an 18yos potential.

If you want to trade Markstrom and Andersson, you HAVE to get NHL players back, not teenaged potentials.

I had potential once. lol

[cberg]

42 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Dude. We have 2 picks in the 1st rd. This dream of 3-4 in the top 15 is just ramblings and unrealistic.

I hate to be the stick in the mud, but 3-4 in the top 15 isn't even a maybe. We have 1.

That's way too much weight of expectation. Let's just go with, "here's what we know we have, right now."

I'm not trying to be insulting, but let's stay in our lane here. We can't trade everyone for an 18yos potential.

If you want to trade Markstrom and Andersson, you HAVE to get NHL players back, not teenaged potentials.

I had potential once. lol

Not unexpected opinion, but I have to disagree.  Even more, I’m putting out a different opinion for consideration. Certainly what we have is what we have(2 1st rounders), but we also HAVE other options, like resurrection of the sabotaged Markstrom deal, and the UFA considerations to come in the next two years, I.e. Mangiapanne, Kuzmenko, Anderson, Markstrom plus…. Looking at trading both Markstrom and Anderson are not only possible, but have already been proposed, (Markstrom) and almost consummated.  In both returning 1st rounders is likely a key part of such trades.  So,  how about you curtail the negatives…?

 

of course, if multiple trades happen this year there obviously would be two key results.  Flames would need to acquire some shorter contracts to meet the SC floor, and the “retool” could be massively accelerated instead of the standard 3-5 years of high picks to obtain elite prospects.

[rocketdoctor]

 

57 minutes ago, cberg said:

Not unexpected opinion, but I have to disagree.  Even more, I’m putting out a different opinion for consideration. Certainly what we have is what we have(2 1st rounders), but we also HAVE other options, like resurrection of the sabotaged Markstrom deal, and the UFA considerations to come in the next two years, I.e. Mangiapanne, Kuzmenko, Anderson, Markstrom plus…. Looking at trading both Markstrom and Anderson are not only possible, but have already been proposed, (Markstrom) and almost consummated.  In both returning 1st rounders is likely a key part of such trades.  So,  how about you curtail the negatives…?

 

of course, if multiple trades happen this year there obviously would be two key results.  Flames would need to acquire some shorter contracts to meet the SC floor, and the “retool” could be massively accelerated instead of the standard 3-5 years of high picks to obtain elite prospects.

 

Still don't think Markstrom gets you a 1st rounder or it would have been done.

 

34 year old coming off a good year, after a poor one, after a good one, after a poor one....... If he was with another team would you be happy the Flames taking him on?

 

I think we are biased and overvalue our assets.  Great if Conroy gets a 1st but unlikley unless they offer significant retention.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Although I should add, I'd much rather us land Helenius rather than a dman if that dman isn't Dickinson. Maybe not even then. Buium is really good, but I'd take Helenius personally. A potential Sebastian Aho is just way too enticing for me. Cs are near impossible to find. I think you can D by committee worst-case, whereas that's not the case at C.

I'd also target Sam O'Reilly in the 2nd round. Grab a couple that have different talent strengths.

I think, for examples, Makar has MacKinnon and Rantanen, Qughes has Miller and Pettersson, Fox has Panarin and Zibanejad. Exceptional dmen, but they're hardly on an island.

I think we need to get high-end talent up front. Elite D with middling talents at forward isn't going to make them look like elite D. They need teammates at a matching level.

 

Is Helenius more of a RW though?  He's listed as C/RW.  But I do like RHS C.  We don't have any.

[The_People1]

We have to put Eiserman, Lindstrom, and Catton on Do Not Draft List because LHS LW.  We cannot get sucked in by LHS LW BPA year after year after year.

 

But Tij tho.

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

Still don't think Markstrom gets you a 1st rounder or it would have been done.

 

34 year old coming off a good year, after a poor one, after a good one, after a poor one....... If he was with another team would you be happy the Flames taking him on?

 

I think we are biased and overvalue our assets.  Great if Conroy gets a 1st but unlikley unless they offer significant retention.

 

As crazy as it seems, that's the TDL prices.  Again, it was expected NJD's 1st round pick would be in the 20s so... Like they say, late first round picks are the most overrated assets in the NHL.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

 

Still don't think Markstrom gets you a 1st rounder or it would have been done.

 

34 year old coming off a good year, after a poor one, after a good one, after a poor one....... If he was with another team would you be happy the Flames taking him on?

 

I think we are biased and overvalue our assets.  Great if Conroy gets a 1st but unlikley unless they offer significant retention.

 

Perhaps we undervalue him.  Gibson has had no good season since 18/19.  He is only 30, but would you argue that he is worth that much more than Markstrom?  

 

If we are being fair, we play as poorly in from of Markstrom as any team does.  So, maybe we devalue him because of the need to excuse the poor play or poor coaching.  

 

I don't see the "reported" offer any less believable than the reported one from Colorado for Hanifin.  People leak stuff for various reasons.    

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

We have to put Eiserman, Lindstrom, and Catton on Do Not Draft List because LHS LW.  We cannot get sucked in by LHS LW BPA year after year after year.

 

But Tij tho.

 

We have previously drafted a namebrand LW.  If the D available is franchise level or there is a similar ceiling C, then I'm not looking at the name on the sweater.  I still hold out hope for Celebration for Celebrini.   

[sak22]

For those thinking acquiring top 15 picks are easy.  Recent history for teams knowingly (pick # had been determined) traded top 15 picks in the last 10 years. 2023- None.  2022 - #6 for Debrincat (Debrincat coming off a 41 goal season) and #13 went twice from the Islanders for Romanov and to the Hawks for Dach (Romanov was 22 and Dach was 21 and only 3 years removed from being #3 overall).  2021 3 were traded #9 for OEL and Garland, but important to note Arizona took on several of Vancouver's bad contracts.  #12 went for Seth Jones, #32 went back the other way, and #15 went from Philly to Buffalo for Ristolainen.  2020 #15 for Kapanen.  2019-none.  2018-none.  2017-#7 for Stepan and Raanta.  2016-none.  2015-#13 to Boston for Lucic, and #15 for Hamilton.  2014-none.  

 

The only goalie there was Raanta and he went along with a 27 year old C, Raanta was 28 but coming off years backing up where he had really strong numbers.  So I see no comparable to Markstrom.  Andersson would be older than Jones and Ristolainen were when they were traded by a year, a case can be made that because Risto got #15 that Andersson should as well.  I put it in the its possible but unlikely I don't see the type of bidding wars people on here expect, if your willing to move a top 10 pick you can do better than Andersson IMO.  And if you want to move a first for a goalie at the draft its probably Saros or bust.

[cross16]

The ease of which people think you can acquire top 10 picks is pretty misguided IMO. The most common way that happens is to get future 1st round picks and hope things go in your favor. Boston trading Phil Kessel, Matt Duschence, Erik Karlson etc etc. Once teams know their in the top 10 then maybe in some softer draft years, team will deal a known pick but I think for the same reasons everyone here wants the Flames to acquire more top 10 picks is exactly why teams don't trade them. They fall in love with the potential and as much as some try and argue "well those teams don't want to wait" that's not what history has shown us. 

 

From a Flames angle I also question the thought process of the all the eggs in the basket approach. A player like Andersson should net you multiple pieces, or potential 1 more known piece, so I don't think the smart approach is to limit yourself to 1 piece. If you try and trade him for a top 10 pick I don't think your getting anything else in return so what if that player doesn't work out? You've just dealt one of your best trade pieces for nothing. 

 

Not a smart team building approach IMO. I think if your retooling, or even rebuilding, you need to build up an asset base. Acquiring future first if you want to try and get in the top 10 but don't put all your eggs in 1 basket I don't see that as smart. 

[The_People1]

44 minutes ago, sak22 said:

For those thinking acquiring top 15 picks are easy.  Recent history for teams knowingly (pick # had been determined) traded top 15 picks in the last 10 years. 2023- None.  2022 - #6 for Debrincat (Debrincat coming off a 41 goal season) and #13 went twice from the Islanders for Romanov and to the Hawks for Dach (Romanov was 22 and Dach was 21 and only 3 years removed from being #3 overall).  2021 3 were traded #9 for OEL and Garland, but important to note Arizona took on several of Vancouver's bad contracts.  #12 went for Seth Jones, #32 went back the other way, and #15 went from Philly to Buffalo for Ristolainen.  2020 #15 for Kapanen.  2019-none.  2018-none.  2017-#7 for Stepan and Raanta.  2016-none.  2015-#13 to Boston for Lucic, and #15 for Hamilton.  2014-none.  

 

The only goalie there was Raanta and he went along with a 27 year old C, Raanta was 28 but coming off years backing up where he had really strong numbers.  So I see no comparable to Markstrom.  Andersson would be older than Jones and Ristolainen were when they were traded by a year, a case can be made that because Risto got #15 that Andersson should as well.  I put it in the its possible but unlikely I don't see the type of bidding wars people on here expect, if your willing to move a top 10 pick you can do better than Andersson IMO.  And if you want to move a first for a goalie at the draft its probably Saros or bust.

 

Not easy agreed.  Very expensive too.  Worst time to acquire draft picks is on the draft floor.  Likewise, worst time to acquire pieces for the playoff run is TDL.  Prices move and change per the weather.

 

That said, best chance to acquire a top 15 pick is to "trade up"... meaning the team giving up a top 15 pick would still have a 1st round pick after all is said and done.  We've seen this happen most often.  Simply trading away a top 15 pick and going home is rare.

 

And so, the Canucks 1st round pick comes into play here.  If they choke first round, then we could be looking at 25-27th overall pick.   Let's say NJD has the 15th overall pick.  Moving down 10 spots to 25 but gaining Markstrom... seems like a win/win (assuming the Flames have a target at 15th).

[The_People1]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

From a Flames angle I also question the thought process of the all the eggs in the basket approach. A player like Andersson should net you multiple pieces, or potential 1 more known piece, so I don't think the smart approach is to limit yourself to 1 piece. If you try and trade him for a top 10 pick I don't think your getting anything else in return so what if that player doesn't work out? You've just dealt one of your best trade pieces for nothing.

 

That's a very pessimistic hypothetical.  Of course putting all eggs in one basket is a high risk/reward thing.  The Flames don't have those high end players without tanking hardcore mofo so the alternative is to take risks like this.  Strategically speaking, I think we gotta do it.

 

Because what if it works?  It would be a franchise altering trade, potentially.