2023 Offseason

[conundrumed]

On 5/29/2023 at 6:31 PM, cross16 said:

 

There is always the potential that I am wrong for sure. 

 

But I don't see this as the same thing for multiple reasons.

1. I don't' agree., he is not a legit #1 center and he showed that this year IMO. Very good player but I don't think he is the type that a team would go "all in" for. 

2. Based on point 1, Tkachuk was that player. This was talked about throughout the whole trade/saga, Tkachuk is a unicorn when it comes to the league. His ability to impact the game in all 3 zones at an elite level, combined with the fact he can mix it up physically, agitate, his attitude etc all makes him a very unique player. 

3. 24 vs 28. Your acquiring Tkachuk and paying him for all his prime years. You'll have to tack on some extra years on the back of Lindholm's age curve. so yes they were both pending UFAs, but what you were buying, and how long it should be good for is quite a bit different. 

4. While the talent level is that trade was crazy, the contract situation wasn't favorable to the Flames. I said this at the time and it's even stronger now but for all the flack he took, Zito did well to put pending UFAs in the deal.  Hard to find teams that have multiple pending UFAs like that they are willing to deal. 

 

Perhaps his value is higher than Horvat as you could pretty easily make the case he is the better player, I'm just not sure that matters much. I don't think the talent impact of the acquisition drives the offer as much as the years of control you get on the player, especially when it comes to giving up high end future assets. 

 

Think the Forsberg for Erat trade is what really set that off IMO. That was your case of a GM getting desperate and giving up a prime future asset for what he thought was the missing piece. It blew up and I think every since you'll seen a shift in the league. 

 

to be clear I think Lindholm is a very desirable asset and you'll get plenty of teams interested. Just think in terms of the price the return will be more lottery ticket based and not include more sure things. 

I ran the Lindholm for 17th oa, Veleno and Wallinder scenario on the Wings board and here's the summary of responses:

-Looooove Lindholm, but he's about 2 years too old. But perfect fit.

-Wallinder is almost a non-starter, only behind Edvinsson for prospects, but we're rich on D.

-Would need a sign and trade or affirmation it's not a 1 year rental

Generally, some posters are staunchly, "no more players over 25-26yo". I've had those arguments in other threads. "Larkin is on record saying having no one around him to help him hurt a lot".

They don't seem to have an exit strategy. Every year they say, "we're 2 years away".lol Then get angry during the season...

The more thoughtful posters only have an issue with age, but some are arguing that Lindholm will age well due to his skating, his style of play and that he can move to RW eventually. If Lindholm were 28 next year, they'd stamp it immediately. As is, they're a little reticent but would still be okay with it. They don't love the price, but understand that would be about the price.

Just for perspective on how other fans view Lindholm.

 

As for here, the, "if we trade him will it help us make the playoffs this year" diatribe is nowhere.

The idea, for me, is to retool if it came to trading him, not stay the same. We'd likely be a little more comfortable moving Hanifin. Relying on Kylington to replace him is not a good strategy imho.

As for those who only know Veleno by stats, his linemates changed almost weekly, constant flux. Still developing but solid. If you want stats, go look at Chytil's, who's a year older and has consistent linemates. You may find that they are eerily similar. Chytil really just started to break out this year. They aren't the same style. Veleno is more of a workhouse. His suspension from the WC is waaay out of character. My thinking is that he completely gaffed on where he wanted his skate to land. He's a hard player, not a dirty one.

And I could watch a big, skilled dman all day.lol

 

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

As for here, the, "if we trade him will it help us make the playoffs this year" diatribe is nowhere.

The idea, for me, is to retool if it came to trading him, not stay the same. We'd likely be a little more comfortable moving Hanifin. Relying on Kylington to replace him is not a good strategy imho.

As for those who only know Veleno by stats, his linemates changed almost weekly, constant flux. Still developing but solid. If you want stats, go look at Chytil's, who's a year older and has consistent linemates. You may find that they are eerily similar. Chytil really just started to break out this year. They aren't the same style. Veleno is more of a workhouse. His suspension from the WC is waaay out of character. My thinking is that he completely gaffed on where he wanted his skate to land. He's a hard player, not a dirty one.

And I could watch a big, skilled dman all day.lol

 

The stats crew doesn't have the luxury of watching said players.  It's a reasonable concern that stats don't show a breakout, but also valid that stats show very little.  I know it's not easy top predict how a certain player will perform here, nor is it always just the player.  It could be how they perform in certain systems.  Jarnkrok and Milano are two that jump off the page.  TT in Seattle is another.  I am a bit quick to blame pro scouting, but it may not be a valid argument.

 

No player is 100% off limits.  Trading Lindholm isn't worth it if it doesn't improve the team in the mid term or long term.  Instant gratification is unlikely.  So, a solid 3C + very good D + top 20 pick is a good alternative.  Doubt you get a top 6 player in return that is younger than Lindholm in any trade.  Maybe.  Maybe BT will trade for Hanifin.  They don't really need a top 6 C, and they love offensive D, so maybe Hanifin for Nylander makes sense for both sides.  That probably pushes us to make changes elsewhere.  Kylington may not be a good short term strategy, but this is also a bit of a rebuild, and Kylington showed pretty big strides in his one year as a Flames top 4.  Don't need him to replace Hanifin, as Weegar-Ras is probably our top 2.  

 

I'm not hung up about age, as long as there is a good chance the player will age okay over 3-5 years.  Lindholm doesn't have the same wear and tear as Monahan did.  Nor is he anyway near as sacrificing as Tanev.  I would be more okay in moving him if we had a bonafide #2 waiting in the wings.  So, your suggestion makes sense long term, but leaves us in the Iggy situation of no top C.  We would have to address that sooner than later.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I ran the Lindholm for 17th oa, Veleno and Wallinder scenario on the Wings board and here's the summary of responses:

-Looooove Lindholm, but he's about 2 years too old. But perfect fit.

-Wallinder is almost a non-starter, only behind Edvinsson for prospects, but we're rich on D.

-Would need a sign and trade or affirmation it's not a 1 year rental

Generally, some posters are staunchly, "no more players over 25-26yo". I've had those arguments in other threads. "Larkin is on record saying having no one around him to help him hurt a lot".

They don't seem to have an exit strategy. Every year they say, "we're 2 years away".lol Then get angry during the season...

The more thoughtful posters only have an issue with age, but some are arguing that Lindholm will age well due to his skating, his style of play and that he can move to RW eventually. If Lindholm were 28 next year, they'd stamp it immediately. As is, they're a little reticent but would still be okay with it. They don't love the price, but understand that would be about the price.

Just for perspective on how other fans view Lindholm.

 

As for here, the, "if we trade him will it help us make the playoffs this year" diatribe is nowhere.

The idea, for me, is to retool if it came to trading him, not stay the same. We'd likely be a little more comfortable moving Hanifin. Relying on Kylington to replace him is not a good strategy imho.

As for those who only know Veleno by stats, his linemates changed almost weekly, constant flux. Still developing but solid. If you want stats, go look at Chytil's, who's a year older and has consistent linemates. You may find that they are eerily similar. Chytil really just started to break out this year. They aren't the same style. Veleno is more of a workhouse. His suspension from the WC is waaay out of character. My thinking is that he completely gaffed on where he wanted his skate to land. He's a hard player, not a dirty one.

And I could watch a big, skilled dman all day.lol

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, then we can't negotiate with Lindholm until July 1st which means we cannot even give Detroit permission to negotiate an extension with Lindholm before draft day.  Maybe Flames have to give a conditional 2nd round pick if Lindholm doesn't extend with the Wings.  But I like the 17th + Veleno + Wallinder suggestion.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, then we can't negotiate with Lindholm until July 1st which means we cannot even give Detroit permission to negotiate an extension with Lindholm before draft day.  Maybe Flames have to give a conditional 2nd round pick if Lindholm doesn't extend with the Wings.  But I like the 17th + Veleno + Wallinder suggestion.

 

Can't do conditional picks on signing.

Can only do it on playing X games or reaching certain playoff goals or scoring.

You are correct about not being able to make a deal prior to the draft.

Makes the pre-signing impossible.

 

If DET was to make the deal on faith and it turned out he won't sign, then they have what we would have after July 1st if he won't sign here and we don't deal him prior.

[The_People1]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Can't do conditional picks on signing.

Can only do it on playing X games or reaching certain playoff goals or scoring.

You are correct about not being able to make a deal prior to the draft.

Makes the pre-signing impossible.

 

If DET was to make the deal on faith and it turned out he won't sign, then they have what we would have after July 1st if he won't sign here and we don't deal him prior.

 

Yes right.  They've changed the rules on that.

 

DET will have to take a leap of faith.  DET in general is a good fit for all parties.  DET wants to end their rebuild and go upwards. Lindholm is in his prime and looking for change.  Flames should take the deal as it's slightly better than the Horvat deal.  Lindholm would likely extend in DET anyways.

[The_Tribal Chief]

Veleno is Not great he literally tried to injure some one by stomping on there leg at the world championships i dont want him on this team

 

 

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The stats crew doesn't have the luxury of watching said players.  It's a reasonable concern that stats don't show a breakout, but also valid that stats show very little.  I know it's not easy top predict how a certain player will perform here, nor is it always just the player.  It could be how they perform in certain systems.  Jarnkrok and Milano are two that jump off the page.  TT in Seattle is another.  I am a bit quick to blame pro scouting, but it may not be a valid argument.

 

No player is 100% off limits.  Trading Lindholm isn't worth it if it doesn't improve the team in the mid term or long term.  Instant gratification is unlikely.  So, a solid 3C + very good D + top 20 pick is a good alternative.  Doubt you get a top 6 player in return that is younger than Lindholm in any trade.  Maybe.  Maybe BT will trade for Hanifin.  They don't really need a top 6 C, and they love offensive D, so maybe Hanifin for Nylander makes sense for both sides.  That probably pushes us to make changes elsewhere.  Kylington may not be a good short term strategy, but this is also a bit of a rebuild, and Kylington showed pretty big strides in his one year as a Flames top 4.  Don't need him to replace Hanifin, as Weegar-Ras is probably our top 2.  

 

I'm not hung up about age, as long as there is a good chance the player will age okay over 3-5 years.  Lindholm doesn't have the same wear and tear as Monahan did.  Nor is he anyway near as sacrificing as Tanev.  I would be more okay in moving him if we had a bonafide #2 waiting in the wings.  So, your suggestion makes sense long term, but leaves us in the Iggy situation of no top C.  We would have to address that sooner than later.

 

 

I am with you on the bolded's. I am not too hung up on age, I understand that the idea is to be younger. There aren't many Pavelski's out there, but at the same time, there are some players who age better than others. Some with more problems. 

 

I don't know if a player's injury history is a thing. But I think that could tell us how their career trajectory could fall. So, keep in mind that some players are more prone to injury, and someone I might have stayed clear from is a guy like Monahan and Ferland... I know they're special cases. I'd never have given a guy like Skinner a huge deal. I am just using some players as an example.

 

Really what I see is, if we trade a Lindholm, we might just get a player that is within a year of his age, who is about as good. I don't know what position, but would be a very good Top6F or Top4D. I could very well see that scenario, even if they're only signed for another 2-3 years. That would allow us to compete with Huberdeau and Kadri, but we possibly lose our #1C. 

 

Some here did say they didn't think Lindholm was a #1. I do believe he is. And I am not saying he is elite, just that given the right line mates he is one. I don't know how #1C's do with Toffoli and whoever on their line. Their line wasn't a #1 due to who he was playing with. Toffoli is more of a 2nd liner, and their other line mates throughout the year were more like 3rd liners.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Can't do conditional picks on signing.

Can only do it on playing X games or reaching certain playoff goals or scoring.

You are correct about not being able to make a deal prior to the draft.

Makes the pre-signing impossible.

 

If DET was to make the deal on faith and it turned out he won't sign, then they have what we would have after July 1st if he won't sign here and we don't deal him prior.

 

Maybe if he doesn't play 100 games in the next two years with them, we send them a 2nd rounder as per Peeps!

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Maybe if he doesn't play 100 games in the next two years with them, we send them a 2nd rounder as per Peeps!

 

I'm not sure that is a valid one.  You can't preface a condition for a situation that only exists if they re-sign him.

He is signed for a year only.  If you said 50 games, then that might be doable.

If they trade him, he would not meet that condition either, but it was their doing.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure that is a valid one.  You can't preface a condition for a situation that only exists if they re-sign him.

He is signed for a year only.  If you said 50 games, then that might be doable.

If they trade him, he would not meet that condition either, but it was their doing.

 

that is true,

 

Right now, I think Yzerman would be in a better position if he did trade for him and get a haul at the TDL. Maybe Conroy could be a good negotiator, but due to not having any historical knowledge to fall back on, I trust Yzerman more so than Conroy to get some really good assets for Lindholm.

 

Although, I see the reason not to. I also see no negotiations, but a verbal ok on Lindholm's part to say they'd be willing to re-sign. 

 

Could there be a deal to send Lindholm and Backlund? That is too much of our Center depth though, gone. 

[travel_dude]

50 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

that is true,

 

Right now, I think Yzerman would be in a better position if he did trade for him and get a haul at the TDL. Maybe Conroy could be a good negotiator, but due to not having any historical knowledge to fall back on, I trust Yzerman more so than Conroy to get some really good assets for Lindholm.

 

Although, I see the reason not to. I also see no negotiations, but a verbal ok on Lindholm's part to say they'd be willing to re-sign. 

 

Could there be a deal to send Lindholm and Backlund? That is too much of our Center depth though, gone. 

 

I think you have to keep separate any Backlund deal.  You devalue him in a package.

TBH, I have no idea of what Connie can do bartering for other plyers.

BT seemed to always be trying to do things a certain way.

Either use a package of players (Hammy ++) or use picks or prospects.

Neal for Lucic was one of the few that seemed to be a normal style one.

 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

Veleno is Not great he literally tried to injure some one by stomping on there leg at the world championships i dont want him on this team

 

 

BS post. If you don't know the player, don't have an opinion based on an incident that was undoubtedly an accident. Veleno has zero history of that kind of play. What is more likely is Veleno wanted to jar Nino's skate to free the puck but sadly misjudged where the skate landed. If you've watched him play enough, you'd know that isn't his style, rather than getting all holy about a player that you know little about. And triggering me.lol

[jjgallow]

21 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

We were his plan B, exactly like you are saying.  Maybe we were his Plan C even because I'm sure Kadri had many offers early into UFA but as time went on, teams moved on and went another way.   Flames were the final team remaining who could make cap space in the final moments to sign him.

 

It wasn't like he really wanted to be here but rather, we were the best of what few options were left.  So, I guess we may not have been his very last choice but we definitely wasn't his first.  If he had it his way then he wouldn't be here at all.

 

This is hot.   Buying his jersey for sure.

[The_Tribal Chief]

excuse me it isnt bs i watched the play and it was a intent to injure play you dont do that to anyone i dont care who it is

[conundrumed]

Just now, The_Tribal Chief said:

excuse me it isnt bs i watched the play and it was a intent to injure play you dont do that to anyone i dont care who it is

And how often have you watched him play, dare I ask? And you likely didn't read my, *what may have happened there*. You may want to loosen up on your judge, jury and executioner style of opinion. Particularly about players you appear to know nothing about.

[The_Tribal Chief]

i dont care that pay right there defeats gave my opinion on that player you try to injure someone and i have no use for you as a player period i dont care if it is your first time or your second time intent to injure as of like something like that imo is unacceptble in any standard

[The_Tribal Chief]

if i Deliberatly come punch someone in the face i goto jail no matter how many times i have done it before this is a difference between deliberate and accidental here

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

if i Deliberatly come punch someone in the face i goto jail no matter how many times i have done it before this is a difference between deliberate and accidental here

Whatever. If you have no idea what you're talking about, use your inside voice. You're running down a player that you've never watched over a 3 second clip. Quit while you're behind. It's quite apparent that you have zero insight into the player, but you have "tons of evidence" in a tiny, tiny, TINY snippet. That's what you're going to run with...it's laughable bordering pathetic. But you do you.

[The_Tribal Chief]

dont first off agree you telling me i dont know what im talking about i do  2nd telling someone my posts are bs isnt appreciated iam entitled to my opinon wather you like it or not that is your choice but doesnt give you the right to say there bs cause you dont agree with them

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, then we can't negotiate with Lindholm until July 1st which means we cannot even give Detroit permission to negotiate an extension with Lindholm before draft day.  Maybe Flames have to give a conditional 2nd round pick if Lindholm doesn't extend with the Wings.  But I like the 17th + Veleno + Wallinder suggestion.

NOW imagine Reinbacher falls to 16 and we have 16 & 17. Satoshi Nakamoto just got real with our D prospects!!

Perchance to dream.lol

[jjgallow]

you guys all triggering each other and BT just hired by leafs.

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

dont first off agree you telling me i dont know what im talking about i do  2nd telling someone my posts are bs isnt appreciated iam entitled to my opinon wather you like it or not that is your choice but doesnt give you the right to say there bs cause you dont agree with them

I follow the Wings, so I've watched the player tons. My opinion is that I don't appreciate you running down a player that you know zero about. If you want to talk Satoshi Nakamoto about him, I'll defend him. That's how opinions work.

It's not about "having the right", it's about calling BS when I see it. Your initial post is BS in my opinion. My opinion is based on knowing the player and I'm fulling saying that you don't.. But you aren't backing down. You're doubling down.

So what, now you're playing the victim card? Rather than just say maybe you overreacted?

Joe Veleno isn't a dirty player, plain and simple. This is a silly hill to die on. Stop being bombastic is all. I was major surprised that Veleno did that and can really only surmise that it wasn't his intention. That was waaaay out of his character. Not even close. There is zero doubt in my mind that he didn't intentionally land on Nino's leg.

[The_Tribal Chief]

and calling someone post bs is wrong first weather you follow the wings or not the point is that was a dirty play and a intent to injure play and to be exact he was suspended for the tourny for it i wasnt running down the player i was stating a fact i didnt not like the play so i would not like that player on my team due to that hit i didnt not say anything bs about that player only the truth of what happened and what i felt

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

you guys all triggering each other and BT just hired by leafs.

That news was, like, a month ago. We all knew it.lol

[The_Tribal Chief]

if stating what i feel isnt allowed im sorry