Officiating

[robrob74]

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/referee-caught-on-open-mic-wanting-to-call-penalty-on-preds-1.5961611
 

This sounds pretty crazy and seems to be about time it has come out. I think it could happen more than we think. Imagine what they say to each other behind closed doors in their dressing rooms? 
 

I think the curse of Wideman could be a real thing. Not saying we don’t get our share of opportunities but officials are quicker to call borderline penalties on us at times, plus how many goals have been disallowed when they get allowed elsewhere?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/referee-caught-on-open-mic-wanting-to-call-penalty-on-preds-1.5961611
 

This sounds pretty crazy and seems to be about time it has come out. I think it could happen more than we think. Imagine what they say to each other behind closed doors in their dressing rooms? 
 

I think the curse of Wideman could be a real thing. Not saying we don’t get our share of opportunities but officials are quicker to call borderline penalties on us at times, plus how many goals have been disallowed when they get allowed elsewhere?

The Flames have had the most PP opportunities in the entire league this year yet their % sits around 22nd or so. I've always felt the Wideman curse has always been just an excuse for sub par playing but with this type of official mindset coming out into the open I think theres going to be a noticeable change in officiating styles, either good or bad.

 

You can go on any teams fan boards and find the same feelings about officiating, the Flames are no different.

[jjgallow]

 

He 100% was not fired for the make-up penalty.

 

He was let go for talking about the make-up penalty to players and near a hot mic.

 

All of the referees do makeup penalties and go to considerable lengths to make the league look like it has more parity than it does.   We all see it, it's very blatant and predictable, and it is absolutely an instruction given to the referees from the NHL directly.   Everyone knows this.

[ABC923]

I think the Wideman curse was a real thing.  The year the incident happened we went from one of the least penalized teams to one of the most almost instantly.  I think the curse lingered a bit into the next season or two as well.  That being said, it faded years ago and I don't believe it is an issue anymore.

 

I actually feel bad for the fired official.  Everyone knows make-up calls are a thing. Refs also talk to the benches like that all the time, I don't think this was an anomaly. The only reason he was let go was the mic.  I'm interested to see how the officials decide to handle the situation. It was mentioned a bit in jest on yesterdays broadcast, but if they called the exact letter of the law you could have 20 penalties on a single team in a game.  I almost expect to see that happen in a game; refs are notoriously tight knit as a group, so if they feel pressure on this (or decide to stick up for Peel), look to see a few games with penalty numbers we've never seen before.

[sak22]

This just provided clear evidence to what we all thought we knew, that refs will make bad calls to make up for missed calls on teams.  There will always be issues with NHL officiating, but I don't think there is any game fixing going on and think officials don't play as significant role in hockey than other sports.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

This just provided clear evidence to what we all thought we knew, that refs will make bad calls to make up for missed calls on teams.  There will always be issues with NHL officiating, but I don't think there is any game fixing going on and think officials don't play as significant role in hockey than other sports.

 

Agreed, it's not game fixing, or, I don't think it is, and it's not limited to hockey by any stretch.

 

But they do narrow the gap by about 50% and keep things closer than they really are.

[cross16]

Not really surprised at this. I think its crappy that the NHL is making an example out of Tim Peel because there is no way he is the only ref that does this he just happened to be caught saying it. This has happened in the NHL, and quite honestly in the game of hockey, for decades.  There is no way the NHL has not known about this for decades so the fact that they are making an example of Peel is pretty low IMO. They've absolutely enabled this type of behavior and I think the Wideman effect was clear example of this.  I don't think the Flames are still suffering from the Wideman effect but there was no question that in that season it was a thing. 

 

The NHL has flittered with this idea many times over the years but honestly it's just as simple as call the rule book. Stop with this bs about making sure things are even, the ridiculous playoff standard officiating, throw that all out. Here is the rule book, call it exactly how it's written and if a team gets 10 penalties in a game tough for them. McDavid draws 5 penalties on his own, good. All of these unwritten rules are what really damage the game IMO. 

 

But i will also say officiating problems are not contained to just hockey. Officiating isn't very good in any professional sports league IMO, but the NHL does seem to have the biggest issue with the "unwritten rules" and that is a drag on the game IMO. 

[CheersMan]

Maybe it is time to remove the two referees from the ice entirely. Leave the linesmen out there to continue to do their job.

With all the camera's and camera angles in the building today refereeing could be done from the rafters or along the glass. You could have multiple referees per games responsible for certain areas of the ice. If a ref see's an infraction he could signal to the entire arena by way of whistle over loud speaker if the play is dead or in the case of a delayed call illuminate lights around perimeter of glass, green light is home team, red light is visiting team so players know which side is being called. When the play is dead an announcement is made. Penalized player leaves the ice. No more arguing with the ref.

[travel_dude]

38 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Not really surprised at this. I think its crappy that the NHL is making an example out of Tim Peel because there is no way he is the only ref that does this he just happened to be caught saying it. This has happened in the NHL, and quite honestly in the game of hockey, for decades.  There is no way the NHL has not known about this for decades so the fact that they are making an example of Peel is pretty low IMO. They've absolutely enabled this type of behavior and I think the Wideman effect was clear example of this.  I don't think the Flames are still suffering from the Wideman effect but there was no question that in that season it was a thing. 

 

The NHL has flittered with this idea many times over the years but honestly it's just as simple as call the rule book. Stop with this bs about making sure things are even, the ridiculous playoff standard officiating, throw that all out. Here is the rule book, call it exactly how it's written and if a team gets 10 penalties in a game tough for them. McDavid draws 5 penalties on his own, good. All of these unwritten rules are what really damage the game IMO. 

 

But i will also say officiating problems are not contained to just hockey. Officiating isn't very good in any professional sports league IMO, but the NHL does seem to have the biggest issue with the "unwritten rules" and that is a drag on the game IMO. 

 

I'm so sick of changing standards in a game or from one game to the next.

Even the playoff standard changes every game.

 

Hits like the one on Kylington are a joke.

No call on the ice.

Yet we saw soft calls on much lesser things.

And blatant non-calls.

 

 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

Maybe it is time to remove the two referees from the ice entirely. Leave the linesmen out there to continue to do their job.

With all the camera's and camera angles in the building today refereeing could be done from the rafters or along the glass. You could have multiple referees per games responsible for certain areas of the ice. If a ref see's an infraction he could signal to the entire arena by way of whistle over loud speaker if the play is dead or in the case of a delayed call illuminate lights around perimeter of glass, green light is home team, red light is visiting team so players know which side is being called. When the play is dead an announcement is made. Penalized player leaves the ice. No more arguing with the ref.

 

Just to add to your thought, they can add a coloured light behind the opposing nets which indicate that a delayed penalty is being called. Then your goalie knows to empty the net for the extra attacker.

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Maybe it is time to remove the two referees from the ice entirely. Leave the linesmen out there to continue to do their job.

With all the camera's and camera angles in the building today refereeing could be done from the rafters or along the glass. You could have multiple referees per games responsible for certain areas of the ice. If a ref see's an infraction he could signal to the entire arena by way of whistle over loud speaker if the play is dead or in the case of a delayed call illuminate lights around perimeter of glass, green light is home team, red light is visiting team so players know which side is being called. When the play is dead an announcement is made. Penalized player leaves the ice. No more arguing with the ref.

 

I don't know how that works for the other parts of their responsibilitoes that being on the ice matters.

• goalie interference
• high stick
• lose sight of puck
• pushed in
• kicked in

That's the easy stuff.  TO is already reviewing stiff after the fact and stopping games (ex. goal not seen). 

 

Considering they can't even get to a point where a chip determines exactly where the puck is, not having refs seems to be pie in the sky.    

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't know how that works for the other parts of their responsibilitoes that being on the ice matters.

• goalie interference
• high stick
• lose sight of puck
• pushed in
• kicked in

That's the easy stuff.  TO is already reviewing stiff after the fact and stopping games (ex. goal not seen). 

 

Considering they can't even get to a point where a chip determines exactly where the puck is, not having refs seems to be pie in the sky.    

play two officials on the ice, one below redline and the other at the blue line. Have a light at both ends and if there’s a penalty, a ref in the stands can call a penalty when they see one. 
 

for me, I think just call all penalties to the book. Players will eventually adapt to the rules. They should already know all of the rules so they basically just push the limits of what the refs allow. 
 

the league cracked down on the slashes that Johnny gets for  few months and it worked for a bit but they throw out the book and then what. Call letter to the law and there’s no make up easy calls just to make up for something. 
 

it’s like someone said, a team earning penalties by skating and outplaying should be rewarded and not penalized because they drew 2-3 penalties more than the other team. Smarten up if you’re being penalized more.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

play two officials on the ice, one below redline and the other at the blue line. Have a light at both ends and if there’s a penalty, a ref in the stands can call a penalty when they see one. 
 

for me, I think just call all penalties to the book. Players will eventually adapt to the rules. They should already know all of the rules so they basically just push the limits of what the refs allow. 
 

the league cracked down on the slashes that Johnny gets for  few months and it worked for a bit but they throw out the book and then what. Call letter to the law and there’s no make up easy calls just to make up for something. 
 

it’s like someone said, a team earning penalties by skating and outplaying should be rewarded and not penalized because they drew 2-3 penalties more than the other team. Smarten up if you’re being penalized more.

 

I think you see both extremes.

One team getting called 8 to 1 in penalties.

Fans don't think it's fair.

The no calls in those games are usually on both sides.

Or the nothing is wrong games.

 

The playoff reffing benefits the dirty teams more.  

 

I don't think there is a system of lights that works.

What we have, needs to improve, but it's owners that are balking at making the needed changes.

They don't want the book, they want subjective calls until it hurts them.

They probably liked what the ref said and 90% of the owners are fine with it.

They don't want 20 minutes of PP's a night.

As a fan it sucks we have to watch the measured calls.

Usually benefits the team that is trying to tie it up.

"exciting" hockey.

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think you see both extremes.

One team getting called 8 to 1 in penalties.

Fans don't think it's fair.

The no calls in those games are usually on both sides.

Or the nothing is wrong games.

 

The playoff reffing benefits the dirty teams more.  

 

I don't think there is a system of lights that works.

What we have, needs to improve, but it's owners that are balking at making the needed changes.

They don't want the book, they want subjective calls until it hurts them.

They probably liked what the ref said and 90% of the owners are fine with it.

They don't want 20 minutes of PP's a night.

As a fan it sucks we have to watch the measured calls.

Usually benefits the team that is trying to tie it up.

"exciting" hockey.

 

I think 20 calls a night is fine, you later end up with teams realizing you can’t do something. If you can get away with murder, you’re gonna murder, well, not really, but do as close to what you can to get away with it. Eventually there’ll be a lot less murders. 

[CheersMan]

6 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Just to add to your thought, they can add a coloured light behind the opposing nets which indicate that a delayed penalty is being called. Then your goalie knows to empty the net for the extra attacker.

That's what I meant about the red and green lights. If red light appears around the perimeter of the glass then it is a delayed call on the visiting team. If a green light appears its going against the home team. Colors are just an example. No more looking back to see if ref has an arm up and no more guessing which team he is calling.

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't know how that works for the other parts of their responsibilitoes that being on the ice matters.

• goalie interference
• high stick
• lose sight of puck
• pushed in
• kicked in

That's the easy stuff.  TO is already reviewing stiff after the fact and stopping games (ex. goal not seen). 

 

Considering they can't even get to a point where a chip determines exactly where the puck is, not having refs seems to be pie in the sky.    

There are 3 zones on the ice. One ref responsible for each zone, he calls everything in his zone only. 

One ref for each net, he calls everything related to the goalie plus evaluates all goals.

That is 5 nameless and faceless refs, with every technical tool and camera angle at their disposal.

Spot light shines down on where face off will occur after each play.

Not saying this is bullet proof but a possible means of removing 2 skating officials from the ice who can determine the outcome of a game.

 

 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, CheersMan said:

That's what I meant about the red and green lights. If red light appears around the perimeter of the glass then it is a delayed call on the visiting team. If a green light appears its going against the home team. Colors are just an example. No more looking back to see if ref has an arm up and no more guessing which team he is calling.

There are 3 zones on the ice. One ref responsible for each zone, he calls everything in his zone only. 

One ref for each net, he calls everything related to the goalie plus evaluates all goals.

That is 5 nameless and faceless refs, with every technical tool and camera angle at their disposal.

Spot light shines down on where face off will occur after each play.

Not saying this is bullet proof but a possible means of removing 2 skating officials from the ice who can determine the outcome of a game.

 

 

 

Hockey purests don't like the idea of chips in pucks or other modern ideas.

So, instead of 2 pros that make decisions seing things live and get a lot of things right, you want to have 5 people doing their job in a backroom or mom's basement.

Who do the C's talk to after a penalty or goal for an explanation?

Go to the bench and use a tablet?

Oh, right they are faceless.

 

Instead of lights to display a delayed penalty, why not eliminate the ref watching on TV to look for penalties and have sensors on the pads.  A stick hack lights up red.  A punch is blue.  A trip is purple.  

 

I'll stick to the imperfect system.  The NHL should police it's own.  They reward the better ones with playoff games.  The Wideman effect was real and they did nothing.  Mostly because Bettman was PO'd about CGY defending him.  

[CheersMan]

33 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Hockey purests don't like the idea of chips in pucks or other modern ideas.

So, instead of 2 pros that make decisions seing things live and get a lot of things right, you want to have 5 people doing their job in a backroom or mom's basement.

Who do the C's talk to after a penalty or goal for an explanation?

Go to the bench and use a tablet?

Oh, right they are faceless.

 

Instead of lights to display a delayed penalty, why not eliminate the ref watching on TV to look for penalties and have sensors on the pads.  A stick hack lights up red.  A punch is blue.  A trip is purple.  

 

I'll stick to the imperfect system.  The NHL should police it's own.  They reward the better ones with playoff games.  The Wideman effect was real and they did nothing.  Mostly because Bettman was PO'd about CGY defending him.  

Hockey purists? You mean like Don Cherry?
Obviously you missed the head lines about 2 pros capable of making appropriate decisions, hence the topic.
And you completely missed the point of having responsible refs police their zone, and not the outcome of the game. Nobody mentioned backrooms or basements, pretty sure the suggestion was along the glass or similar with best view and cutting edge tech to support. 
When a captain skates over to talk to a ref have you ever him return satisfied or call over turned? I haven’t, so what is the point of skating over there?
If you like the imperfect game so much then bite your lip about “being so sick of changing standards in a game or from one game to the next”.
More eyes on the game, making the best decisions in real time was the suggestion while removing two obstacles on the ice.
 

[robrob74]

No matter how they do it, I just want the games to be called by the letter of the Rules. They’re in there for a reason. By not calling every rule consistently it opens them up to making the call randomly, sometimes letting it go and then suddenly it’s a penalty after they let like 3 or 4 go. 
 

the saying goes that the ref sets the standard. There should only be one standard, a penalty is a penalty, players will adapt. If they commit one, it’s called, they may not commit one again. 
 

it was partially done after 04. They started calling clutching and grabbing and the players and the league adapted. 
 

just call the penalties!

[jjgallow]

Nice to see us all come together and agree on a thread lol.

 

Unfortunate that it's about officiating

[dieselmarble]

Sometimes it changes the out come of a game but its done, Every game you watch and see questionalbe penaltys will now make you wonder. Pretty sad thing and for a Ref to say it like that, it must be a common practice not just him.

[rocketdoctor]

My biggest hate about the NHL is the different way regualr season is called compared to the Playoffs.

 

One rule book - be consistent in its use for every game.  

 

With the current offciating mindset it is like a GM needs to have to completely different teams for regular and playoff games

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

My biggest hate about the NHL is the different way regualr season is called compared to the Playoffs.

 

One rule book - be consistent in its use for every game.  

 

With the current offciating mindset it is like a GM needs to have to completely different teams for regular and playoff games

 

Unfortunately they aren't consistent with the rule book in the regular season, Or the playoffs sigh.

 

They throw it away completely in the playoffs,

 

And in the regular season they use it to:

1.  Prevent clutch and grab

2.  Create a sense of closeness in games.

 

Sadly, if it feels like you need two different teams, it's because your team is one of the teams they're trying to make feel like they're close.