Calgary Flames 20/21 Roster and Lines

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Out of curiosity, what was your suggested lineup based on who we have available?

Is your frustration with Bennett's use because he is still with Lucic or the 4th line?

 

 

 

For me the frustration lies in the fact that he looked good with both Lucic AND Dube. Can Lucic still help pushing the play forward? How much better, worse, or the same would Nordstrom be compared to Jankowski? Or do we compare Jankowski to Lucic? For me, giving Bennett guys who can take and do something with the puck would really help develop him as a C. Without that, he might look as useless as he has in the past. I think he still pushes the play forward, but with people who can't do anything with the puck, it'll look like it always has. He will end up trying to do things on his own and get himself into trouble. 

Maybe Nordstrom will be a good fit? Maybe that fit could be Simon as well?

 

But the reality is, the team has: Lindholm, Monahan, Backlund ahead of him. He is going to be the 4th line C. Giving Dube those minutes is good, but at the same time, play him with Benny and have them earn more ice, and I think they would. 

 

I still think we will sell low on Bennett and he will flourish elsewhere. My bet is the Flames trade him at the Deadline this year... Or can they see him as a Backlund replacement in the future? If so, play him like one.... But I think he should play some PP too, get his confidence up.

[JTech780]

The biggest things that Lucic and Nordstrom bring to the table are physicality and defense, but neither have any offensive ability at this point. Pairing those two with Bennett, more or less makes that line an energy line that can't be counted for any offense, but hopefully won't hurt you defensively.

 

Even if the moved Bennett on the wing with Backlund, it gives you a chance to use Bennett's offensive ability. 

 

Is his play going to suffer when he is struggling to produce points.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Is your frustration with Bennett's use because he is still with Lucic or the 4th line?

 

It's a combination of 4th line and being saddled with 2 players he needs to carry. It's a continuation of what they've done with Bennett he's entire career that has not worked so the Flames have just continued to do exactly what has not worked in the past. 

 

It just confirms my belief they are going to use him as fodder for the expansion draft. 

 

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Out of curiosity, what was your suggested lineup based on who we have available

 

I wanted to see something like this. 

 

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mang

Dube - Monahan - Leivo

Lucic - Ryan - Simon

 

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It's a combination of 4th line and being saddled with 2 players he needs to carry. It's a continuation of what they've done with Bennett he's entire career that has not worked so the Flames have just continued to do exactly what has not worked in the past. 

 

It just confirms my belief they are going to use him as fodder for the expansion draft. 

 

 

I wanted to see something like this. 

 

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mang

Dube - Monahan - Leivo

Lucic - Ryan - Simon

 

 

And a lot of the posters on here don't believe that Bennett can play those minutes and with those players. From what I remember about Bennett, as I don't look at the fancy stats that often, is that he is really good at pushing the play to the neutral zone. I think that the problem lies in the shift from the neutral zone into the offensive zone. He either butted heads with his line mates or tried to do it all himself. For me that points to separation and his line mates' ability to keep the play moving in that direction. I am probably a bit wrong in my theory, but for me, that's where I se the problems with his game. He gets the puck to that area and then his line mates can't do anything beyond that and then the play comes back the other way. It then looks horrible on Bennett, especially when he tried to do it all on his own after all of the other stuff didn't work. 

 

We see last year with Dube that when guys he plays with are natural at puck distribution he can help maintain play going the other way. I could be way off, and it's just me that thinks this. I understand why others would see that he has his faults because when they'd try him a few games or just a few periods with other players it is much the same. But my problem has been that they never stuck with the changes they try with him for more than a small handful of games. If they wanna play him with Johnny, keep him with Johnny more than a period, or more than a game. I don't think sporadic games cut it as there's no continuity. I think he'd benefit from continuity.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It's a combiination o 4th line and being saddled with 2 players he needs to carry. It's a continuation of what they've done with Bennett he's entire career. 

 

 

I wanted to see something like this. 

 

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm

Gaudreau - Bennett - Mang

Dube - Monahan - Leivo

Lucic - Ryan - Simon

 

 

Yeah, I wasn't sure.  I remembered a lot of talk about Bennett needing to play at C.

I think the decision to use Lindholm at C pushed Bennett down the lineup.

Lucic is one thing, but Nordstrom makes it worse.

 

I would be fine moving Bennett to LW and Leivo to RW, paired with Backlund.

It doesn't change the top 2 lines as much, but it gives you a better top

 

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube

Gaudreau-Monahan-Mangiapane

Bennett-Backlund-Leivo

Lucic-Ryan-Simon

 

Not ideal.  But at least Bennett would be on a better line.  Dube's performance in the playoffs seems to be resulting in him playing top 6.  I would have like to see the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line in the regular season.  Then you could do Simon with Gaudreau-Monahan and Mangiapane with Tkachuk.  Would need to have Nordstrom with Backlund and Leivo.  Not sure that would work.   

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

And a lot of the posters on here don't believe that Bennett can play those minutes and with those players. From what I remember about Bennett, as I don't look at the fancy stats that often, is that he is really good at pushing the play to the neutral zone. I think that the problem lies in the shift from the neutral zone into the offensive zone. He either butted heads with his line mates or tried to do it all himself. For me that points to separation and his line mates' ability to keep the play moving in that direction. I am probably a bit wrong in my theory, but for me, that's where I se the problems with his game. He gets the puck to that area and then his line mates can't do anything beyond that and then the play comes back the other way. It then looks horrible on Bennett, especially when he tried to do it all on his own after all of the other stuff didn't work. 

 

Where I find Bennett struggles is that he tries to do things himself.  When he played with Dube, they were a mobile pair.  By himself, Bennett will try to walk through 2 players.  He's good if someone gives him an option to pass to/from.  Catch Bennett on the fly and let him get a shot away.  Or he's carrying the puck and a player gets open.  Lucic is really only useful once the puck in on the boards.  He doesn't have the greatest mitts anymore for passing plays.

[travel_dude]

Janko leads the NHL in scoring....

🙄

[cross16]

22 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

And a lot of the posters on here don't believe that Bennett can play those minutes and with those players. From what I remember about Bennett, as I don't look at the fancy stats that often, is that he is really good at pushing the play to the neutral zone. I think that the problem lies in the shift from the neutral zone into the offensive zone. He either butted heads with his line mates or tried to do it all himself. For me that points to separation and his line mates' ability to keep the play moving in that direction. I am probably a bit wrong in my theory, but for me, that's where I se the problems with his game. He gets the puck to that area and then his line mates can't do anything beyond that and then the play comes back the other way. It then looks horrible on Bennett, especially when he tried to do it all on his own after all of the other stuff didn't work. 

 

 

It was an experiment for sure that i wanted tried. My rationale was I really think Gaudreau needs someone who can help bring the puck up the ice or dive the net and open up the seem so he can move East-West. The reason I really wanted him and Monahan split up is this is the flaw I see. Gaudreau is elite at brining the puck up the ice but he does it on his own becuase Monahan can't keep up and it's taken away Gaudreau's ability to move east - west in the zone which is what makes him so dangerous. I think Bennett would have been a nice answer there to open up more options. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but I don't see why the lineup they are using right now is going to work better than their lineup last year so what are we trying to do here?

 

The critique of Bennett not using his line mates is fair but it's also interesting that is seems to die down quite a bit in the playoffs. I didn't hear that critique as much (insert small sample size warning here) so it begs the question is that Bennett or is that his situation?

[Thebrewcrew]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Janko leads the NHL in scoring....

🙄

He’s been passed by Gus in points!

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It was an experiment for sure that i wanted tried. My rationale was I really think Gaudreau needs someone who can help bring the puck up the ice or dive the net and open up the seem so he can move East-West. The reason I really wanted him and Monahan split up is this is the flaw I see. Gaudreau is elite at brining the puck up the ice but he does it on his own becuase Monahan can't keep up and it's taken away Gaudreau's ability to move east - west in the zone which is what makes him so dangerous. I think Bennett would have been a nice answer there to open up more options. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but I don't see why the lineup they are using right now is going to work better than their lineup last year so what are we trying to do here?

 

The critique of Bennett not using his line mates is fair but it's also interesting that is seems to die down quite a bit in the playoffs. I didn't hear that critique as much (insert small sample size warning here) so it begs the question is that Bennett or is that his situation?

 

I think the part of the new lineup that works better is having Lindholm at C to create a top line with Tkachuk. I agree with your theory on Gaudreau and needing a guy to help push the play along with him. I think the extra line of Tkachuk will be good, but at the same time I don't believe that Gaudreau and Monahan will regain their magic due to your analysis. I think the coaches and the team believes Tkachuk and Lindholm combo will force other teams to play their best pairs against them, thus leaving Johnny and Monny with easier options and creating further depth scoring. I think in theory it works, but it is assuming that most team's second pairs can't defend. Backlund probably stays the same... I think you probably already understand it.

 

But I agree with you that Monahan just isn't the right fit. I think that having the other option for Johnny would push his game forward, and having Mangiapane or Dube with them would keep the play going. I really like your lineup suggestion up top!

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The critique of Bennett not using his line mates is fair but it's also interesting that is seems to die down quite a bit in the playoffs. I didn't hear that critique as much (insert small sample size warning here) so it begs the question is that Bennett or is that his situation?

 

It wasn't until the playoffs that Bennett looked like he had taken a step.

It may have been a result of a new line with him over Ryan.

To me, it's a situation that Bennett plays better with better players (big surprise).

Maybe it was not consistent use, but I don't remember him looking as good with Gaudreau.

That may have been due to playing RW.

 

26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It was an experiment for sure that i wanted tried. My rationale was I really think Gaudreau needs someone who can help bring the puck up the ice or dive the net and open up the seem so he can move East-West. The reason I really wanted him and Monahan split up is this is the flaw I see. Gaudreau is elite at brining the puck up the ice but he does it on his own becuase Monahan can't keep up and it's taken away Gaudreau's ability to move east - west in the zone which is what makes him so dangerous. I think Bennett would have been a nice answer there to open up more options. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but I don't see why the lineup they are using right now is going to work better than their lineup last year so what are we trying to do here?

 

 

 

For some reason Bennett was held out of practice to begin with.  Was there simply not enough time to experiment?

If they leave Monahan with Gaudreau, would Mangiapane (or Dube) be enough of a difference maker to provide the missing piece to that line?

[robrob74]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It wasn't until the playoffs that Bennett looked like he had taken a step.

It may have been a result of a new line with him over Ryan.

To me, it's a situation that Bennett plays better with better players (big surprise).

Maybe it was not consistent use, but I don't remember him looking as good with Gaudreau.

That may have been due to playing RW.

 

 

For some reason Bennett was held out of practice to begin with.  Was there simply not enough time to experiment?

If they leave Monahan with Gaudreau, would Mangiapane (or Dube) be enough of a difference maker to provide the missing piece to that line?

 

Well, that is how it is with a lot of players. They play better with better players. You could use that argument with Monahan. He plays better with better players. He gets more goals playing with Gaudreau and Hudler than he would by not playing with them, and more assists to top it off. Would he be a 70point guy without Gaudreau? 

 

I am not saying Bennett will be either, just that once Bennett was put with better players they were able to push the play more than when he was with lesser players. Plus, I think you can only improve your linemates so much when they were guys like Brouwer, Jankowski, or Neal or whomever else Bennett as played with. And who knows, maybe Bennett could have played with Jankowski had he played C over Janks. 

 

I dont think that putting someone with the Monahan and Gaudreau will necessarily make them better. Lindholm did for about 50 games. Since then, Lindholm gets some points, but with them he seems rendered misused, and quiet, or unused. Will that happen to either Dube or Mangiapane. Maybe that's where Cross's analysis of the situation comes in. But Johnny hasn't really been using the RW player all that often since the All-Star break of the 99point season. It is like it's only the two of them.

 

If they can't play 5v5 then they need to be split up. Play them only on the PP together. 

[Ward54]

Personally I was hoping to see

 

Tkachuk - Bennett - Dube

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon / Leivo 

Mangiapane - Backlund - Lindholm 

Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom 

 

Number the lines however you like apart from the obvious 4th line. 

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, Ward54 said:

Personally I was hoping to see

 

Tkachuk - Bennett - Dube

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon / Leivo 

Mangiapane - Backlund - Lindholm 

Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom 

 

Number the lines however you like apart from the obvious 4th line. 

 

I guess the coaches' hope is that Bennett can push his way up the lineup? I just don't think it works that way for C as much as it does on the wings. I think sometimes a C is only as good as his wingers. Backlund could push players like Bouma and Colborne up to slight bumps, but not enough to be 45+ points. Can Bennett do that with Lucic and Nordstrom, get them up that high? I guess you wanna see him doing what Ryan does for his linemates.

 

But I really like the idea of Bennett there, and with Johnny.

[travel_dude]

Looks like Stone and Ritchie were both released from their PTO's.

[pikey7883]

I have been with Cross on this one for awhile that Johnny and Benny should be together. I said that last year before we made any additions to the lineup, with our new mates this is the way I see it

 

Tkachuk - Money - Mangiapane

Johnny - Benny - Dube

Simon - Backlund - Lindholm

Lucic - Leivo - Nordstrom (Ryan when not on the taxi squad) 

The first three lines need to roll steady with a relentless attack. Backs, Lindy, and Nordstrom with Ryan or Bennett are your PKers.

#1 Powerplay should be

Tkachuk - Benny - Gaudreau

and Lindholm on the point with Anderson 

 

I know I don’t know that much or see what the coaches see, but a relentless attack is hard to defend.

 

[cross16]

17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

For some reason Bennett was held out of practice to begin with.  Was there simply not enough time to experiment?

If they leave Monahan with Gaudreau, would Mangiapane (or Dube) be enough of a difference maker to provide the missing piece to that line?

 

Maybe, i'm not sure but given that Johnny and Mony have been back together since day 1 leads me to believe that Ward does not want to split them up. 

 

I think both Mang and Dube add interesting elements to that line that could work and I'd like to see both given a shot. Hard to say missing link because while I like certain elements o what those 2 could bring, neither shoots the puck like Lindholm can. 

 

I will say this, because i'm sure it's coming across like i'm being hard on Ward. It does look like the main goal here is to actually create a stronger line in Tkachuk-Lindholm (one that can be used for both offensive a defensive purposes) and still have another strong 2 way line with Backlund, which would free up Gaudreau-Monahan for very favorable matchups. That is a way to to get around some of their flaws, namely having to exit their own zone. 

 

If that is the big picture there is nothing wrong with it, even if I don't personally agree with the approach. 

[JTech780]

I will say that the small bits that I have seen of Tkachuk and Lindholm together I liked a lot more than I thought, and it actually gives me a lot of hope that we can have a true two way number 1 line. Which would hopefully put Gaudreau and Monahan in a position of seeing lesser lines and more offensive situations. 

 

I am definitely in the split Gaudreau and Monahan up camp, but I do get that we are in a short season, with basically no training camp and that Ward is leveraging familiarity in this situation. I can't say that he is absolutely wrong in going in that direction, and since he is, I like that he is trying to maximize their effectiveness. I think Leivo brings some of the same elements to the table as Lindholm so I get why he is starting on that line.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Maybe, i'm not sure but given that Johnny and Mony have been back together since day 1 leads me to believe that Ward does not want to split them up. 

 

I think both Mang and Dube add interesting elements to that line that could work and I'd like to see both given a shot. Hard to say missing link because while I like certain elements o what those 2 could bring, neither shoots the puck like Lindholm can. 

 

I will say this, because i'm sure it's coming across like i'm being hard on Ward. It does look like the main goal here is to actually create a stronger line in Tkachuk-Lindholm (one that can be used for both offensive a defensive purposes) and still have another strong 2 way line with Backlund, which would free up Gaudreau-Monahan for very favorable matchups. That is a way to to get around some of their flaws, namely having to exit their own zone. 

 

If that is the big picture there is nothing wrong with it, even if I don't personally agree with the approach. 

 

I think we all notice things that could be changed to improve the team.

Saw things in the playoffs I didn't like.

Some of that wasn't cleaned up in the scrimmage, but I expect some rust.

 

Obviously not much time at camp to try different things.  I like that they have tried a few guys with Monahan/Gaudreau as well as setting up a 2nd scoring line plus shutdown line.

Bennett's usage is still troubling.  Lucic on the PP is too.  I would prefer that you reward Lucic for good play with PP minutes, not gift them.  

 

There is some reason to believe that the Monahan line could be as good as two years ago, if they can get chemistry with the 3rd wheel.  Getting them away from top coverage may help.  Having two other lines to face tough competition should as well.  I just hope Ward learned a few things from the playoffs.  It seemed like he was out-coached. Not to put the blame on him, but he could have been smarter.

[cross16]

Game 1 so i won't get upset but having Nordstrom over Ryan, I see no value or logic in. 

 

I do however, like the idea of Hanifin - Tanev. Based on some interviews it looks like the plan is to get Hanifin more involved offensively which I do think is smart. 

 

 

[JTech780]

34 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Game 1 so i won't get upset but having Nordstrom over Ryan, I see no value or logic in. 

 

I do however, like the idea of Hanifin - Tanev. Based on some interviews it looks like the plan is to get Hanifin more involved offensively which I do think is smart. 

 

 

 

To me Ward is an old school coach in his systems and in the way he deploys his lineup. I see that 4th line as an old school bang and crash energy line, in that situation I don't see a fit for Ryan on that line. Now I am open to an argument of weather Calgary should be running that type of line, but that is where Ward is going. All 3 of those guys will hit everything that moves, they also won't hurt you defensively, I think you are also betting big on Bennett to be able to drive play in a positive direction as well.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Looks like Stone and Ritchie were both released from their PTO's.

 

LOVE IT! Stone is probably a great guy and a trooper. He's just not an NHL player anymore, not for the Flames anyway. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I have been with Cross on this one for awhile that Johnny and Benny should be together. I said that last year before we made any additions to the lineup, with our new mates this is the way I see it

 

Tkachuk - Money - Mangiapane

Johnny - Benny - Dube

Simon - Backlund - Lindholm

Lucic - Leivo - Nordstrom (Ryan when not on the taxi squad) 

The first three lines need to roll steady with a relentless attack. Backs, Lindy, and Nordstrom with Ryan or Bennett are your PKers.

#1 Powerplay should be

Tkachuk - Benny - Gaudreau

and Lindholm on the point with Anderson 

 

I know I don’t know that much or see what the coaches see, but a relentless attack is hard to defend.

 

 

I agree and have been saying it for a few years now. I got a lot of flack, especially since Benny hasn't shown or been given the chance to play the position enough to show he can. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Maybe, i'm not sure but given that Johnny and Mony have been back together since day 1 leads me to believe that Ward does not want to split them up. 

 

I think both Mang and Dube add interesting elements to that line that could work and I'd like to see both given a shot. Hard to say missing link because while I like certain elements o what those 2 could bring, neither shoots the puck like Lindholm can. 

 

I will say this, because i'm sure it's coming across like i'm being hard on Ward. It does look like the main goal here is to actually create a stronger line in Tkachuk-Lindholm (one that can be used for both offensive a defensive purposes) and still have another strong 2 way line with Backlund, which would free up Gaudreau-Monahan for very favorable matchups. That is a way to to get around some of their flaws, namely having to exit their own zone. 

 

If that is the big picture there is nothing wrong with it, even if I don't personally agree with the approach. 

 

I totally think that's the theory behind the approach. At home it could work a lot more, but i think on the road they'd still get the oppositions 1st or 2nd pairing. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

I will say that the small bits that I have seen of Tkachuk and Lindholm together I liked a lot more than I thought, and it actually gives me a lot of hope that we can have a true two way number 1 line. Which would hopefully put Gaudreau and Monahan in a position of seeing lesser lines and more offensive situations. 

 

I am definitely in the split Gaudreau and Monahan up camp, but I do get that we are in a short season, with basically no training camp and that Ward is leveraging familiarity in this situation. I can't say that he is absolutely wrong in going in that direction, and since he is, I like that he is trying to maximize their effectiveness. I think Leivo brings some of the same elements to the table as Lindholm so I get why he is starting on that line.

 

 

I didn't want them to split them up last year. I felt Lindholm was trending towards being a very good C. Not a lot were giving him leeway to get back up to speed on the position and wanted him on RW. I get that the need was there, but the Flames really need someone to step up as a true #1 C. Monahan puts up offensive numbers as an elite goal scorer, and by theory is a first liner, but as a C, he falls short on his overall game. 

 

Who knows, maybe his game takes a step and last year was his learning curve in the process of becoming more complete and he can add the offence back to his game. Although, was he really that much better defensively? I might be biased about that side of his game due to the lack of production offensively.