2020 Hockey Hall of Fame Class - Iginla Elected

[cross16]

Wednesday the Hall will announce the inductees who will be enshrined for 2020. Could be multiple Flames stories as well. Iginla is a shoe in as far as i'm concerned. Easy 1st ballot Hall of Famer and would be an all time shocker if he isn't elected. The more interesting story is Theoren Fleury. Today Frank Seravalli wrote a good piece that has me thinking. https://www.tsn.ca/theoren-fleury-deserves-a-spot-in-the-hockey-hall-of-fame-1.1488299

 

I've gone back and forth on this in the past and ultimately it was more "no" than yes but now I'm all in for Fleury in the Hall. His credentials warrant it, especially in reference to others who are already in, and with what has now come out about his personal life I think it actually strengthens his case. In the past it's been held against him that he wasn't an ambassador for the game or how he got into personal troubles but now we know why and honestly can we blame him anymore? The fact that this guy had the career he did with all of that going on i think makes him deserving. 

 

I think it would be a great message to put him in the Hall. I'm not sure he'll get in there this year but I do think it should happen. 

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

I think Fleury should get in. Whether you like

him or not, he’s more than qualified. Longevity, cup champ, over a pt/g, gold medalist. Also overcame trauma from his teens. To play at his size in the 80’s and 90’s is no small feat either. 
 

 

 

I get that he may have burnt bridges in the last with the voters. But they have to do the right thing. Vote him in and then let’s see 14 in the rafters at the dome.
 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think Fleury should get in. Whether you like

him or not, he’s more than qualified. Longevity, cup champ, over a pt/g, gold medalist. Also overcame trauma from his teens. To play at his size in the 80’s and 90’s is no small feat either. 
 

 

 

I get that he may have burnt bridges in the last with the voters. But they have to do the right thing. Vote him in and then let’s see 14 in the rafters at the dome.
 

 

 

 

I find it odd sometimes that people need to be voted in, like, the hockey writers not voting Burns in until after he past on was a travesty. He clearly deserved to be in. Theo deserves to be in. 

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I find it odd sometimes that people need to be voted in, like, the hockey writers not voting Burns in until after he past on was a travesty. He clearly deserved to be in. Theo deserves to be in. 

I never understand what the thought process of voters is.  Brendan Shanahan got passed over his first time despite 650 goals and 3 Stanley Cups, which would seem pretty automatic, might have been the key to the Wings getting over the hump.  With Theo it is obvious he rubbed people the wrong way, he spoke his mind and I think hockey writers don't like that.

 

Personally if writers were to take a stand and be harsher on players, I'd like it to be the ones who played with zero regard for the opponents health.  A guy like Pronger IMO would have been a good example to take a stand, he had like 8 suspensions and an attitude that he would do it all over again.  Given the concussion issues I'd like to see guys who played dangerously have their legacy tarnished a little bit for it.

 

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 let’s see 14 in the rafters at the dome.

 

 

Yes I still don't get it, IIRC Matt Stajan who had worn 14 in Toronto had said he had never been given the option to wear that in Calgary, why 10 more years after that.  Yes words were said and written, but he did a lot for the franchise in some lean years, he could've easily asked to leave when all the other stars were getting shipped off.  I don't see why they can't put it up.

[Thebrewcrew]

56 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

Yes I still don't get it, IIRC Matt Stajan who had worn 14 in Toronto had said he had never been given the option to wear that in Calgary, why 10 more years after that.  Yes words were said and written, but he did a lot for the franchise in some lean years, he could've easily asked to leave when all the other stars were getting shipped off.  I don't see why they can't put it up.

I think it's a game of chicken between the Flames and Hall of fame, if and when he gets into the Hall, then I think 14 goes to the rafters. It only makes sense, since they have removed 14 from circulation.

[cross16]

I am for Fleury in the Hall but i'm actually not for the Flames retiring his number. Part of the reason I think Fleury should get in to the Hall is looking at what he did outside the NHL:

-10th all time in WHL scoring

-2 time world junior player. Was part of the "punch up in Piestany" and then captained Canada to a gold medal the following year

- Helped win a championship in the minors (2nd leading goal getter on the team)

- Won the 91 Canada Cup with Team Canada

- 2002 Olympic Gold and what is, IMO, the greatest hockey team every assembled. 

I a big proponent of the fact it's the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame and when you look at Fleury's Hockey resume I just think it's obvious. 

 

But when it comes to retiring numbers, I think that's reserved for players who where stalwarts of the franchise. Gave themselves to the team, the city and the organization and represented the jersey whenever they could, I don't think it's reserved for excellent players who played for the franchise, I have a little higher expectations than that. 

 

So if I had a vote it would be no but I also wouldn't pound the table against it either. At the end of the day he is more deserving than Vernon who is already up there and in his number is already unofficially retired anyway. 

[travel_dude]

I found it odd that a TSN writer actually suggested he should get the vote.

But when you look at the body of work, it's easy for a hockey analyst to get to that:

 

Theoren Fleury’s playing career and life after have featured a string of triumphs, most notably over sexual abuse and addiction. But his wins on the ice are also something to behold. Starting in the late 1980s, Fleury earned a berth on the World Junior Championship all-star team, tied for the Western Hockey League scoring title with eventual Hall of Famer Sakic, made the NHL second all-star team, finished among the top five in voting at right wing three more times, scored 50 goals and earned 100 points twice. Fleury’s brand of hockey left nothing to the imagination: he scored 455 goals (58th all-time) and earned 1,840 penalty minutes. Only four players with at least 450 goals had more penalty minutes: Pat Verbeek, Brendan Shanahan, Keith Tkachuk and Mark Messier. Sitting behind Fleury on this list is Gordie Howe (1,685). Fleury kicked off his pro career by winning the International Hockey League’s Turner Cup in 1988 – contributing 16 points in eight games – and the Stanley Cup with Calgary in 1989. He represented Canada eight times, winning gold at the World Juniors, Canada Cup and Olympics. The final victory of his career would be induction to the Hall of Fame.

Hall of Fame stat: Only 15 players in NHL history have averaged at least one point per game in both the regular season (min. 1,000 games) and playoffs (min. 75 games). Fourteen are in the HHOF: Wayne Gretzky, Phil Esposito, Guy Lafleur, Sakic, Dale Hawerchuk, Bernie Federko, Denis Savard, Jari Kurri, Gil Perreault, Bobby Hull, Paul Coffey, Jean Beliveau, Howe and Messier.

[sak22]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

But when it comes to retiring numbers, I think that's reserved for players who where stalwarts of the franchise. Gave themselves to the team, the city and the organization and represented the jersey whenever they could, I don't think it's reserved for excellent players who played for the franchise, I have a little higher expectations than that. 

 

I get that.  On the ice I don't know if you take away much, the production was there and played with a lot of heart.  Off the ice and in the room are two different stories, for one he is a guy who chose not to be the captain during the young gun days, and second how many guys would want to show up for his ceremony.  Outside of Nieuwendyk and Roberts I had always heard mixed things on the relationships of the holdovers from the cup team.  I am a little biased towards Theo, I was always the little guy growing up so he was the guy I always tried to be like, so part of me wants to be able to see his # in the rafters as a constant reminder of my childhood hero, but I'm still not losing any sleep that it hasn't happened yet.

[travel_dude]

 

 

I came across this and wish Gaudreau would watch how Theo used to shoot.

Watching him in other jerseys made my heart weep.  😒 

[sak22]

What do people think of Mike Vernon ever getting in?  

 

Vernon will never be regarded as high with us as others that are in the Hall or on the cusp, as much credit he got for the '89 win was easily removed with blame for the failures of the next 5 seasons.  But off to Detroit and 2 finals appearances 1 win and 1 Conn Smythe, nearly 400 wins.  He is lacking in the personal hardware, but there are a lot of non-Hart , Art Ross or Norris trophy winners in the Hall, all those awards were really owned by a select group of people each decade.

 

I just don't know what the standard for goaltending is.  I don't know how many other guys waiting I'd make a strong case for, maybe CuJo.  Out of guys playing now how many are good bets.  MAF is probably the safest bet, Lundqvist has the wins and the hardware but no cup, same with Rinne, Rask has been solid but only with a cup as a backup, Quick maybe has a case but had many bad years as well.  So I don't know, it seems like since the '80's guys goalies are held to the standards of winning a lot of cups like Fuhr, Roy, and Broduer, or winning the personal trophies like Hasek and Belfour.  Could you imagine if all forwards during that era were held to Gretzky, and Lemiuex standards (I mean are you really any good if you never broke the 190 point plateau).

[Thebrewcrew]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

What do people think of Mike Vernon ever getting in?  

 

Vernon will never be regarded as high with us as others that are in the Hall or on the cusp, as much credit he got for the '89 win was easily removed with blame for the failures of the next 5 seasons.  But off to Detroit and 2 finals appearances 1 win and 1 Conn Smythe, nearly 400 wins.  He is lacking in the personal hardware, but there are a lot of non-Hart , Art Ross or Norris trophy winners in the Hall, all those awards were really owned by a select group of people each decade.

 

I just don't know what the standard for goaltending is.  I don't know how many other guys waiting I'd make a strong case for, maybe CuJo.  Out of guys playing now how many are good bets.  MAF is probably the safest bet, Lundqvist has the wins and the hardware but no cup, same with Rinne, Rask has been solid but only with a cup as a backup, Quick maybe has a case but had many bad years as well.  So I don't know, it seems like since the '80's guys goalies are held to the standards of winning a lot of cups like Fuhr, Roy, and Broduer, or winning the personal trophies like Hasek and Belfour.  Could you imagine if all forwards during that era were held to Gretzky, and Lemiuex standards (I mean are you really any good if you never broke the 190 point plateau).

The HOF is always a great debate. 
 

The way I look at it is, if you were to tell the story of hockey to someone, who’s names are you mentioning. 
 

Goalies are tough.

Lundqvist and Quick are gonna get in. Quick has fallen off a bit but is the greatest American goalie statistically. 
 

I think Iggy and Hossa get the call today, not sure who else. Theo does seem to be getting more love from the press this year.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The HOF is always a great debate. 
 

The way I look at it is, if you were to tell the story of hockey to someone, who’s names are you mentioning. 
 

Goalies are tough.

Lundqvist and Quick are gonna get in. Quick has fallen off a bit but is the greatest American goalie statistically. 
 

I think Iggy and Hossa get the call today, not sure who else. Theo does seem to be getting more love from the press this year.

 

Do you think Alfie has a chance this year?

I'm inclined to think they will go back and correct some omissions from previous years.

There's about a 50/50 chance Theo gets the call.

If not this year, then it's next year.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Do you think Alfie has a chance this year?

I'm inclined to think they will go back and correct some omissions from previous years.

There's about a 50/50 chance Theo gets the call.

If not this year, then it's next year.

 

There’s lots of chatter Alfie gets in because it’s not a strong class, if not this year then it may be a while. Alfie and Doan may be Hall of Very Good.

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

There’s lots of chatter Alfie gets in because it’s not a strong class, if not this year then it may be a while. Alfie and Doan may be Hall of Very Good.

 

Right up there with Glenn Anderson?

[cross16]

34 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

There’s lots of chatter Alfie gets in because it’s not a strong class, if not this year then it may be a while. Alfie and Doan may be Hall of Very Good.

 

This is what makes the Hall such a tough conversations, but also a fascinating one.  What is the benchmark? I think the Hockey Hall of Fame has been very watered down and they've let people in they should not have. 

 

For me, i agree Alfredson is in the Hall of very good but not fame. Was he every the best player at this position? Did he excel in certain parts of the game, did he transcend the game or start a trend, what was his success both in and outside the NHL; those are the things I look at. I just don't see what stands our for me there that scream Hall of Fame when I look at Alfredson. It took him clicking with Spezza and Heatley to even break out his potential and outside of that did he stand out? no for me. 

 

If I had a vote my 4 inductees would be Iginla, Fleury, Moginly and Jennifer Botterill. Hossa was right there for me and should get in next year but I think Fleury should get the nod before he does. That won't happen though. 

 

52 minutes ago, sak22 said:

What do people think of Mike Vernon ever getting in?  

 

Vernon will never be regarded as high with us as others that are in the Hall or on the cusp, as much credit he got for the '89 win was easily removed with blame for the failures of the next 5 seasons.  But off to Detroit and 2 finals appearances 1 win and 1 Conn Smythe, nearly 400 wins.  He is lacking in the personal hardware, but there are a lot of non-Hart , Art Ross or Norris trophy winners in the Hall, all those awards were really owned by a select group of people each decade.

 

I just don't know what the standard for goaltending is.  I don't know how many other guys waiting I'd make a strong case for, maybe CuJo.  Out of guys playing now how many are good bets.  MAF is probably the safest bet, Lundqvist has the wins and the hardware but no cup, same with Rinne, Rask has been solid but only with a cup as a backup, Quick maybe has a case but had many bad years as well.  So I don't know, it seems like since the '80's guys goalies are held to the standards of winning a lot of cups like Fuhr, Roy, and Broduer, or winning the personal trophies like Hasek and Belfour.  Could you imagine if all forwards during that era were held to Gretzky, and Lemiuex standards (I mean are you really any good if you never broke the 190 point plateau).

 

Vernon is tough because again based on others in the Hall (such as Billy Smith or Rogie Vochon) he's got the case. For me he is in that Hall of very good but not the Hall of Fame. He is very, very close though (probably closer than some think) but I just don't think there is enough personal awards/accolades or international success to move the needle.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, cross16 said:

If I had a vote my 4 inductees would be Iginla, Fleury, Moginly and Jennifer Botterill. Hossa was right there for me and should get in next year but I think Fleury should get the nod before he does. That won't happen though. 

 

I agree with your sentiments.

Fleury to me is the guy that paved the way for Marty St. Louis, Gallagher and other smaller players.

Sure Richard was a smaller guy, but it was a different era.

Fleury has the heart of a lion.

[Carty]

Fleury should have already been in the HHOF quite a while back...   It's way overdue...   Aside from his achievements on the ice, for several years now he has put a lot of time, effort and money into his Little Warriors organization as well as a good number of other charities and community organizations...

 

He deserves to be inducted more than a lot of players that already have been...   and he has more than earned the recognition of being included...

[robrob74]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I agree with your sentiments.

Fleury to me is the guy that paved the way for Marty St. Louis, Gallagher and other smaller players.

Sure Richard was a smaller guy, but it was a different era.

Fleury has the heart of a lion.

 

 

Fleury played like it was Guerrilla Warfare out there. He played in survival mode his whole career and it gave him the space he needed to do what he could. He was probably my all-time Fav player. But I loved and followed all of the other Flames players from that era, even when they got traded to other teams. 

[cross16]

Was just a formality, but can confirm now that Jarome Iginla is officially a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame. Dissaponting, but not surprising, Fleury was not elected.

 

Joining Iginla are Lowe, Wilson, Kim St Pierre and Hossa. Honestly, most of these are junk. Lowe? Wilson, Holland? Like come on.... St Piere very deserving as well. 

 

Congrats to Iginla though. Very well deserved. 

 

 

[sak22]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/iginla-st-pierre-holland-headline-2020-hockey-hall-fame-class/

 

Congrats to Jarome, well deserved.

 

But I don't know about Lowe, was a he good player yes was he instrumental to either the Oilers or Rangers, no way.  Are Brent Seabrook and Chris Kunitz locks for the Hall of Fame now?  They've won a lot of cups and medals too.

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/iginla-st-pierre-holland-headline-2020-hockey-hall-fame-class/

 

Congrats to Jarome, well deserved.

 

But I don't know about Lowe, was a he good player yes was he instrumental to either the Oilers or Rangers, no way.  Are Brent Seabrook and Chris Kunitz locks for the Hall of Fame now?  They've won a lot of cups and medals too.

 

He does know something about winning that tier 2 fans don't

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, sak22 said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/iginla-st-pierre-holland-headline-2020-hockey-hall-fame-class/

 

Congrats to Jarome, well deserved.

 

But I don't know about Lowe, was a he good player yes was he instrumental to either the Oilers or Rangers, no way.  Are Brent Seabrook and Chris Kunitz locks for the Hall of Fame now?  They've won a lot of cups and medals too.

 

 

Kevin Lowe ran the Oilers franchise into the ground.

 

For that, he will always be a Hall of Fame in my books.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Was just a formality, but can confirm now that Jarome Iginla is officially a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame. Dissaponting, but not surprising, Fleury was not elected.

 

Joining Iginla are Lowe, Wilson, Kim St Pierre and Hossa. Honestly, most of these are junk. Lowe? Wilson, Holland? Like come on.... St Piere very deserving as well. 

 

Congrats to Iginla though. Very well deserved. 

 

 

 

The Hall of Very Good just got lowered to the Hall of Middling.

You can't even talk about Iggy in the same sentences as the other guys.

And Fleury has a mere 46 less points than Hossa in 225 less games played.

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Kevin Lowe ran the Oilers franchise into the ground.

 

For that, he will always be a Hall of Fame in my books.

LOL.  Do they finally retire his #4 now?  That could be interesting, first ceremony where the recipient gets booed?

 

 

 

 

[cross16]

It is a tough job so part of me feels bad for giving them such a hard time, but they really have to overhaul the selection committee/process to get people into the Hall. It's not even exciting anymore because so many get it that really shouldn't and it doesn't hold the prestige it should IMO. Obviously does for all the people who are in there, as it should, but as a fan I care less and less every year. 

 

They should start by doing what other sports do and cap the years of eligibility. Kevin Lowe has been Hall of Fame eligible for 20 years... 20 years they could have voted him in and said no. How can you possibly be a hall of fame if it takes you 20 years to get in. That's crazy to me. 

 

Cap it and let those guys fall off the ballot. Would probably also save the sympathy vote that i'm sure many of these guys get.