2020 Hockey Hall of Fame Class - Iginla Elected

[Thebrewcrew]

Yeah the system could use some tinkering. 
 

I kinda like baseballs system. 10 years max on the ballot, if you don’t get x percentage of votes  in your first year of eligibility then you’re off the ballot. 
 

Players that have been retired 15-20 years shouldn’t be getting in IMO.

Kevin Lowe hasn’t played in 22 seasons. I could care less he was an Oiler. How do the voters justify voting him in all of a sudden when they’ve had ample opportunity to do so.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, cross16 said:

It is a tough job so part of me feels bad for giving them such a hard time, but they really have to overhaul the selection committee/process to get people into the Hall. It's not even exciting anymore because so many get it that really shouldn't and it doesn't hold the prestige it should IMO. Obviously does for all the people who are in there, as it should, but as a fan I care less and less every year. 

 

They should start by doing what other sports do and cap the years of eligibility. Kevin Lowe has been Hall of Fame eligible for 20 years... 20 years they could have voted him in and said no. How can you possibly be a hall of fame if it takes you 20 years to get in. That's crazy to me. 

 

Cap it and let those guys fall off the ballot. Would probably also save the sympathy vote that i'm sure many of these guys get. 

 

It's an insult to players like Mogilny and Fleury that Lowe would ever get in, let alone before them.

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Yeah the system could use some tinkering. 
 

I kinda like baseballs system. 10 years max on the ballot, if you don’t get x percentage of votes  in your first year of eligibility then you’re off the ballot. 
 

Players that have been retired 15-20 years shouldn’t be getting in IMO.

 

The way the system is now Shane Doan will be a hall of famer in 20 years, because he was a pretty good player and very likeable guy.

To an extent I agree on baseballs 10 years, I hate the percentage part I feel like a lot of guys who deserve more consideration don't get it.  So many good players are one and done, David Cone won 5 WS, perfect game, Cy Young.  Didn't get the wins like Glavine, Maddux and Johnson, but still had a great winning percentage and was one and done for the hall.  I think he should be in.

 

Pro-Football voted Terrell Owens in first year, he was probably a bigger headache for every organization he played for than Theo, they also has a flawed HOF process but I don't find their omissions as glaring as hockey or baseball.

[Thebrewcrew]

9 minutes ago, sak22 said:

To an extent I agree on baseballs 10 years, I hate the percentage part I feel like a lot of guys who deserve more consideration don't get it.  So many good players are one and done, David Cone won 5 WS, perfect game, Cy Young.  Didn't get the wins like Glavine, Maddux and Johnson, but still had a great winning percentage and was one and done for the hall.  I think he should be in.

 

Pro-Football voted Terrell Owens in first year, he was probably a bigger headache for every organization he played for than Theo, they also has a flawed HOF process but I don't find their omissions as glaring as hockey or baseball.

All of them are flawed for sure.

 

For baseball though, you have to be truly great to be in Cooperstown. Some guys get the short end of the stick, but there aren’t as many head scratchers as there is in hockey
 

Hockey hall of fame is getting watered down IMO. 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Hall of Very Good just got lowered to the Hall of Middling.

You can't even talk about Iggy in the same sentences as the other guys.

And Fleury has a mere 46 less points than Hossa in 225 less games played.

 

 

You mean, just got Lowered to... 

[travel_dude]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

 

You mean, just got Lowered to... 

The voting process and list eligible bLowes.

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, sak22 said:

To an extent I agree on baseballs 10 years, I hate the percentage part I feel like a lot of guys who deserve more consideration don't get it.  So many good players are one and done, David Cone won 5 WS, perfect game, Cy Young.  Didn't get the wins like Glavine, Maddux and Johnson, but still had a great winning percentage and was one and done for the hall.  I think he should be in.

 

Pro-Football voted Terrell Owens in first year, he was probably a bigger headache for every organization he played for than Theo, they also has a flawed HOF process but I don't find their omissions as glaring as hockey or baseball.

 

I feel like you gotta do something Pete Rose-esque to not get in. That's the kind of player that shouldn't be in. Theo was one of the best players in the game for how many years and literally put the Flames on his back to help save a franchise passing that duty onto Iginla. But he held the fort until then.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

The voting process and list eligible bLowes.

 

 

Half of this year's crop are beLowe standard.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Half of this year's crop are beLowe standard.

😎

 

AT least we fans don't have to defend the Iggy choice.

 

[rocketdoctor]

I get Iggy & Hossa and can sort of get behind Doug Wilson being voted in but Keving freaking Lowe? You have got to be kidding me.  Is it April 1st?

 

Is there some rule that says if a Flame gets a nod then an Oiler has to aswell?

 

There were so many more deserving people to ge in the Hall.

 

Outrageous

[Carty]

Congrats to Iggy...   Without a doubt he deserves to be in the HHOF...   

 

But Lowe getting in and not Fleury?...   Absofugginlutely ridiculous...

 

 

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, Carty said:

Congrats to Iggy...   Without a doubt he deserves to be in the HHOF...   

 

But Lowe getting in and not Fleury?...   Absofugginlutely ridiculous...

 

 

 

Lowe over Mogilny and even Alfi is almost as bad.

[cross16]

16 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

All of them are flawed for sure.

 

For baseball though, you have to be truly great to be in Cooperstown. Some guys get the short end of the stick, but there aren’t as many head scratchers as there is in hockey
 

Hockey hall of fame is getting watered down IMO. 

 

Agreed. There's always going to be flaws in a system based on subjective opinions but hockey without a doubt seem to have the worst process and the most controversial elections. 

 

I think hockey tends to overate the wrong type of credentials because they seem to lack good ways to quantify other aspects. A lot of weight seems to get put on winning cups, what type of person they are and are they likable. So Lowe gets in because people like him and he won a ton of cups even though he was at no point in his career a top player at his position. They need to refine their criteria as the hall should be about the best players and not necessarily the best people. 

 

But at the same time the Baseball Hall of Fame has really thrown almost all the steroid era players under the bus too so hockey isn't necessarily alone in that problem. 

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

I get Iggy & Hossa and can sort of get behind Doug Wilson being voted in but Keving freaking Lowe? You have got to be kidding me.  Is it April 1st?

 

Is there some rule that says if a Flame gets a nod then an Oiler has to aswell?

 

There were so many more deserving people to ge in the Hall.

 

Outrageous

 

he’s definitely not in there for the team builder category! 😂

[sak22]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. There's always going to be flaws in a system based on subjective opinions but hockey without a doubt seem to have the worst process and the most controversial elections. 

 

I think hockey tends to overate the wrong type of credentials because they seem to lack good ways to quantify other aspects. A lot of weight seems to get put on winning cups, what type of person they are and are they likable. So Lowe gets in because people like him and he won a ton of cups even though he was at no point in his career a top player at his position. They need to refine their criteria as the hall should be about the best players and not necessarily the best people. 

 

But at the same time the Baseball Hall of Fame has really thrown almost all the steroid era players under the bus too so hockey isn't necessarily alone in that problem. 

I'm curious to see if it's consistent.  McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Sosa tend to keep active in voting, but I think there are enough voter that won't sway their position on either of them.  But will that pattern hold up with A-Rod and Ortiz?  Ortiz comes from another area of weakness as they have many biased voters who refuse to vote DH's, but Ortiz' failed test seemed to get swept under the rug, also a more likeable person than Bonds and Clemens for sure.  

 

My issue with the character judgement is it isn't consistent throughout time.  In Baseball Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would be perceived differently if the played in today's era if they behaved both on and off the field in the same manner, truly terrible people but only held to their success in the game.  For hockey I don't know too many examples, Tim Horton for one may be viewed in a different light in today's world.  So I would say Fleury wouldn't be either the worst player or the worst human in the Hall.

 

 

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I'm curious to see if it's consistent.  McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Sosa tend to keep active in voting, but I think there are enough voter that won't sway their position on either of them.  But will that pattern hold up with A-Rod and Ortiz?  Ortiz comes from another area of weakness as they have many biased voters who refuse to vote DH's, but Ortiz' failed test seemed to get swept under the rug, also a more likeable person than Bonds and Clemens for sure.  

 

My issue with the character judgement is it isn't consistent throughout time.  In Baseball Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would be perceived differently if the played in today's era if they behaved both on and off the field in the same manner, truly terrible people but only held to their success in the game.  For hockey I don't know too many examples, Tim Horton for one may be viewed in a different light in today's world.  So I would say Fleury wouldn't be either the worst player or the worst human in the Hall.

 

 

 

 

My bet is that there were many that were alcoholics and addicted to drugs throughout history of the sport that is underground, unknown. You look at the Last Dance and most of the team when Jordan arrived were party animals and you look at Wilt the Stilt and he's claimed to have slept with over 10,000 women or something like that. So to me, it's more about optics than anything. I don't know the hockey version of that stardom but I hear that some NHLers can party it up. I think that the ones that get outed are the ones that don't pay their bills, or stiff a cabby and make a mockery of themselves in the process. My bet is that the stars that play by a certain set of party rules don't get outed because it's an unwritten thing. If they play respectfully the owners of clubs want those stars there. I'm probably reaching a lot here... 

[sak22]

48 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

My bet is that there were many that were alcoholics and addicted to drugs throughout history of the sport that is underground, unknown. You look at the Last Dance and most of the team when Jordan arrived were party animals and you look at Wilt the Stilt and he's claimed to have slept with over 10,000 women or something like that. So to me, it's more about optics than anything. I don't know the hockey version of that stardom but I hear that some NHLers can party it up. I think that the ones that get outed are the ones that don't pay their bills, or stiff a cabby and make a mockery of themselves in the process. My bet is that the stars that play by a certain set of party rules don't get outed because it's an unwritten thing. If they play respectfully the owners of clubs want those stars there. I'm probably reaching a lot here... 

Fleury stands out because, his entry into the substance abuse program also came at a time when his on ice antics became out of hand.  Fleury was also a guy you likely hated if he wasn't on your team and could also at times hate when he is, and add in his outspoken nature that still exists today and it can be apparent why people wouldn't like him.  Patrick Kane is a definite first ballot HOF player, who has off ice incidents that are more serious than just being a partier that, don't paint a good picture of his character but has no on ice incidents or media quotes or social media posts that have created enemies for him.  IMO Theo will get his day, maybe it will take as long as Lowe and Wilson (hope not), the ones keeping him out now will fade away, I do think the next generation will have more compassion for enduring what he did and the work he is doing now to help others in the same spot.

 

 

[cross16]

I think what will ultimately keep Fleury out of the Hall for quite a while, and perhaps forever, is that he continues to be brash and outspoken. I think many have come around to understanding his issue but he's as opinionated today as he was during this career and I think there could be a fear out there that what happens if they give him a platform? I thikn it's a large reason why his number is also not officially retired by the club. 

 

Doesn't make it right and I feel this is likely a big factor. 

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Fleury stands out because, his entry into the substance abuse program also came at a time when his on ice antics became out of hand.  Fleury was also a guy you likely hated if he wasn't on your team and could also at times hate when he is, and add in his outspoken nature that still exists today and it can be apparent why people wouldn't like him.  Patrick Kane is a definite first ballot HOF player, who has off ice incidents that are more serious than just being a partier that, don't paint a good picture of his character but has no on ice incidents or media quotes or social media posts that have created enemies for him.  IMO Theo will get his day, maybe it will take as long as Lowe and Wilson (hope not), the ones keeping him out now will fade away, I do think the next generation will have more compassion for enduring what he did and the work he is doing now to help others in the same spot.

 

 

 

Fleury had his reasons for being the way he was.  You know who I refer to when I say that.  

We can only hope that the NHL sees past the public persona some day.

 

Let's face it, a lot of great players waited a long time to get in.

Some decades.  And I'm not talking about Lowe.

While I am annoyed with the time Theo has waited, the more annoying thing is the ones that didn't really deserve it.

I assume he is about 8 years since he became eligible.

A long time for sure.

 

[JTech780]

Last year when they voted in Guy Cabonneau is when things really went sideways IMO. He was a good player, but he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Now they vote in Lowe and Wilson. These last two groups are full of head scratchers.

 

Iginla deserves to be there.

 

I am fine with Hossa being in there.

 

 

[cross16]

Bernie Federko is still the biggest WTF election for me. I still have no idea how he is a Hall of Famer. 

 

for me it started there. Once you put someone in who just might have good numbers but no real awards/acolades, and you don't adjust for the time they played in you blow your criteria wide open. 

[robrob74]

19 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Last year when they voted in Guy Cabonneau is when things really went sideways IMO. He was a good player, but he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Now they vote in Lowe and Wilson. These last two groups are full of head scratchers.

 

Iginla deserves to be there.

 

I am fine with Hossa being in there.

 

 

 

 

I'd even go so far as to say that Igninla and Hossa shouldn't be first ballot. But then again, that's just an opinion that the Hall should mean a lot more and be a bit harder to get in. Maybe I am also a high grader and thinking that Iginla hadn't done enough to earn a first year vote in, when guys like Lindros took a bit longer. I am not trying to say Iginla doesn't deserve in at all. 

[sak22]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I'd even go so far as to say that Igninla and Hossa shouldn't be first ballot. But then again, that's just an opinion that the Hall should mean a lot more and be a bit harder to get in. Maybe I am also a high grader and thinking that Iginla hadn't done enough to earn a first year vote in, when guys like Lindros took a bit longer. I am not trying to say Iginla doesn't deserve in at all. 

I don't think its fair to even put Iginla and Lindros in the same class.  Lindros' peak was pretty elite, but injuries did limit him and was far less effective near the end than Iginla.  Also, missed 2 years of his career to holdouts.  I'm curious as to why not Iginla as a first ballot and what the standard should be for first ballot?

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

I don't think its fair to even put Iginla and Lindros in the same class.  Lindros' peak was pretty elite, but injuries did limit him and was far less effective near the end than Iginla.  Also, missed 2 years of his career to holdouts.  I'm curious as to why not Iginla as a first ballot and what the standard should be for first ballot?

 

Cups, MVP awards. He should’ve won one. His teams sucked a lot though. But I also think It’s like retiring a jersey, normally doesn’t happen right away unless you’re a Gretzky or Jordan, Sakic or Yzerman.  Even those last two I say wait a few turns. So it’s not so much what he hasn’t done as much as it is to let it breathe a little. Like others have said it should be harder to get in.

 

i am not saying take 20 years.

[cross16]

20 hours ago, sak22 said:

I'm curious to see if it's consistent.  McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Sosa tend to keep active in voting, but I think there are enough voter that won't sway their position on either of them.  But will that pattern hold up with A-Rod and Ortiz?  Ortiz comes from another area of weakness as they have many biased voters who refuse to vote DH's, but Ortiz' failed test seemed to get swept under the rug, also a more likeable person than Bonds and Clemens for sure.  

 

My issue with the character judgement is it isn't consistent throughout time.  In Baseball Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would be perceived differently if the played in today's era if they behaved both on and off the field in the same manner, truly terrible people but only held to their success in the game.  For hockey I don't know too many examples, Tim Horton for one may be viewed in a different light in today's world.  So I would say Fleury wouldn't be either the worst player or the worst human in the Hall.

 

 

 

This is a really good point and well said. I agree that character judgement is a slippery slope and why IMO, I don't think the Hall of Fame should put as much on character. I'm not saying let everyone in as obviously there will be circumstances and some people that you just don't want associated with you but for me it should be pretty egregious. I think the vast majority of people who visit Hall of Fame and are interested in them want to see the collection of the most talented/best people to play the game and I think that should be the focus above all else. 

 

I thought it was great that Canton put Terrell Owens in the HOF and i'm someone who believe that McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Arod should all be in their Hall of fame too. Sometimes putting people that are not that likable in the Hall just makes for even better debates.