Geoff Ward, Flames 18 th coach

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, rickross said:

I don’t see Ward coming back. He was handed a tough situation but I think we’ve seen enough to know he’s not the coach that’s going to take this team to the next level. He mismanaged too many opportunities not to mention his team handed the playoff series to the Stars. Flames are far too fragile mentally under Ward. There are MUCH better options at HC that will be available

This .. just ..No 

The coach does not determine the mental makeup the team.. thats on players . 

The season as a whole, he basically brought the team back from the dead .. had them playing for each other

did his best with what he had to get as far as they did 

for the 1st time since 04, I saw a group playing for each other.. thats on the coach too  

 

Dallas WAS the better team.. on paper and in the series, this wasn't a Colorado meltdown  

 

we forget , they were in the mix for 1st when Covid hit ..   this is about all you can ask a coach to do 

biggest reason coaches get fired is they lose the room .. he has it

 

I had no complaint about our compete level.. our desire .. etc for the first item in years.. this was execution 

Im certain , Hamonic saves one of those late winning goals .. Dube had a broken stick but i didn't like his effort to block that shot that came his way 

Tkachuk,  easily a game changer 

 

The only name you could convince me is an upgrade is Laviolette , and even then Id tell you Ward got a raw deal 

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Just a general reminder guys,  there is a reason why "Fire the Coach"  is widely seen as the dumbest fan response above all other fan responses.

 

We've tried it twice under BT.   If a GM has to go through 3 coaches and still can't put together a team that isn't embarrassing in the post season....

 

Well you know.   

 

Enough time has passed, enough coaches have been fired and enough poor player moves have been made that there is only one constant in this.

 

Every firing has been followed by a poor GM search.

Gully, BP.

Those are on the GM for sure.

 

Firing the coach makes sense if you have done an exhaustive search and aren't settling with the guy that just says the right things.  Gully should never have been a coach.  BP came from a losing organization.  Why was that a smart hire.  The GM owns the failures of the coach and team.  Did he improve in the areas that were weakest?  Doesn't seem so.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Every firing has been followed by a poor GM search.

Gully, BP.

Those are on the GM for sure.

 

Firing the coach makes sense if you have done an exhaustive search and aren't settling with the guy that just says the right things.  Gully should never have been a coach.  BP came from a losing organization.  Why was that a smart hire.  The GM owns the failures of the coach and team.  Did he improve in the areas that were weakest?  Doesn't seem so.

To be fair , we need to put a giant asterisk next to BP

we'll never know now how this second season would have shaped up .. i did like a lot of things in BP's game plans ,only main knock is he did alienate certain players and cement them into doghouses (Neal, Lucic,  etc)

 

BT gets a pass on him as far as I'm concerned 

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

To be fair , we need to put a giant asterisk next to BP

we'll never know now how this second season would have shaped up .. i did like a lot of things in BP's game plans ,only main knock is he did alienate certain players and cement them into doghouses (Neal, Lucic,  etc)

 

BT gets a pass on him as far as I'm concerned 

 

The lack of success he had elsewhere should have been of concern.

This year was a testament to his ability I think.

Last year's success was partly the coach and career years from players.

Does the coach deserve the credit?

I dunno.

 

BTW, I'm not calling for BT's removal.  I think he's done a lot of good things.  Next steps are crucial.

[phoenix66]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The lack of success he had elsewhere should have been of concern.

This year was a testament to his ability I think.

Last year's success was partly the coach and career years from players.

Does the coach deserve the credit?

I dunno.

 

BTW, I'm not calling for BT's removal.  I think he's done a lot of good things.  Next steps are crucial.

oh totally ..like you say we will never know

 

and agreed i think BT us doing just fine.. i shudder when i think of what coudl have been with Kadri and Zucker on this team .. should have been a reality 

[sak22]

21 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

oh totally ..like you say we will never know

 

and agreed i think BT us doing just fine.. i shudder when i think of what coudl have been with Kadri and Zucker on this team .. should have been a reality 

Seeing what Kadri did to Arizona is a kick in the groin, not saying he would've for sure done the same in the Flames series but I don't think he'd be worse than what we did have. I'm indifferent on whether Zucker would've made a difference.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Just a general reminder guys,  there is a reason why "Fire the Coach"  is widely seen as the dumbest fan response above all other fan responses.

 

We've tried it twice under BT.   If a GM has to go through 3 coaches and still can't put together a team that isn't embarrassing in the post season....

 

Well you know.   

 

Enough time has passed, enough coaches have been fired and enough poor player moves have been made that there is only one constant in this.

 

well, Ward wasn’t really BTs guy. Peters was. We said it earlier in the year that BP walking away gave BT a chance to hire another. If ward worked out, great! But he hasn’t. 
 

sure the team looks fragile... I still think it’s both!

 

what is with the rhetoric in Calgary? Iginla’s teams were un-coachable, now we’re fragile! Something in the water?

[sak22]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

what is with the rhetoric in Calgary? Iginla’s teams were un-coachable, now we’re fragile! Something in the water?

The un-coachable thing was just crap to defend horrible coaches, Mike Keenan sorry his expiration date came when he failed in Vancouver, Brent Sutter yeah maybe they didn't play his system, but his system limited the best weapon they had (Bouwmeester).

 

But the fragile thing, I can't believe how long this has lasted, I guess to an extent it falls on the mental makeup of the players but it's really 3 straight playoffs and 4 games of having lost leads late and the game in OT, and death blows the last 2 years when they really shouldn't have been.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

well, Ward wasn’t really BTs guy. Peters was. We said it earlier in the year that BP walking away gave BT a chance to hire another. If ward worked out, great! But he hasn’t. 
 

sure the team looks fragile... I still think it’s both!

 

what is with the rhetoric in Calgary? Iginla’s teams were un-coachable, now we’re fragile! Something in the water?

 

Is it really fragile?  They blew a lead in a game and couldn't stem the tide.

It happens that every once in awhile a combination of things results in a blowout.

How poor a decision it was to try to change momentum by switch to an ice cold goalie.

Does not excuse the team at all, but I don't see it a fragile thing.

 

If anything, this team developed a thick skin with all the distractions and such.

Doesn't mean they played well, but they never seemed to panic.

Poor performances and fragile are two separate things.

2018/19 fragile?  Yes, I suspect.

They overcame no adversity.

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Is it really fragile?  They blew a lead in a game and couldn't stem the tide.

It happens that every once in awhile a combination of things results in a blowout.

How poor a decision it was to try to change momentum by switch to an ice cold goalie.

Does not excuse the team at all, but I don't see it a fragile thing.

 

If anything, this team developed a thick skin with all the distractions and such.

Doesn't mean they played well, but they never seemed to panic.

Poor performances and fragile are two separate things.

2018/19 fragile?  Yes, I suspect.

They overcame no adversity.

a team that is not fragile is able to kill one of those Lucic penalties, or  come back and start skating again. A fragile team quits. They quit.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

a team that is not fragile is able to kill one of those Lucic penalties, or  come back and start skating again. A fragile team quits. They quit.

 

The eventual goal on the Heiskanen shot was not the definition of fragile response.

They were doing well up to that point.

 

I get what you are saying.  Fragile in the sense of not being able to stop the bleeding.

They had a poor start to the 2nd.

Easy goals scored with not pressure the other way.

 

How do you describe the following:

Talbot let in 3 goals on 9 shots.

Ritter couldn't even handle the puck.

He let in 3 on another 9 shots.

 

One expects a team to shoot at the goalie and the goalie to stop 90% of the shots.

They did stop playing when down by 1, 2 or 3 goals.

They might have been guilty of doing things that are risky.

 

But, TBH, what difference does it make.  We are arguing about things that don't really matter.  They sucked when they needed to not suck.  Changes have to happen because we can't continue to lose series we have no business losing. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

BT gets a pass on him as far as I'm concerned 

 

This confuses me a bit, BP had a league-wide reputation for what was essentially player abuse, BT hires him and ...it's not on BT?

 

Seems to me like an extremely clear case of being on BT unless I'm missing something.

 

@travel_dude  Finding a new GM as you pointed out isn't easy.   But in my mind that should be a completely separate discussion as nothing in this business is easy.  You either have the right GM or you need to be looking for a GM.

 

I've personally wondered if Craig Conroy might be the right kind of stuff to initiate a rebuild.   He at least has some connection to players and wouldn't be hiring a coach known league-wide for abuse, so there's that.

[Thebrewcrew]

With WSH making a change, I think you’ll see them hire Gallant or Lavy. Both guys have a history of immediate success. The Caps will try to milk every last ounce of hockey out of the Ovi/Backstrom core. Think letting Trotz leave was the right call?

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

With WSH making a change, I think you’ll see them hire Gallant or Lavy. Both guys have a history of immediate success. The Caps will try to milk every last ounce of hockey out of the Ovi/Backstrom core. Think letting Trotz leave was the right call?

 

Sometimes it's just one game.

Elimination game with power plays and Backs is nowhere to be found.

No better option and they still didn't use him on the #1 unit.

 

I have a feeling BT feels the same way.

No real reason to go to an untested goalie.

At least not with some of those goals being less his fault.

That's potentially a firing offense.

 

[rickross]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:11 PM, phoenix66 said:

This .. just ..No 

The coach does not determine the mental makeup the team.. thats on players . 

The season as a whole, he basically brought the team back from the dead .. had them playing for each other

did his best with what he had to get as far as they did 

for the 1st time since 04, I saw a group playing for each other.. thats on the coach too  

 

Dallas WAS the better team.. on paper and in the series, this wasn't a Colorado meltdown  

 

we forget , they were in the mix for 1st when Covid hit ..   this is about all you can ask a coach to do 

biggest reason coaches get fired is they lose the room .. he has it

 

I had no complaint about our compete level.. our desire .. etc for the first item in years.. this was execution 

Im certain , Hamonic saves one of those late winning goals .. Dube had a broken stick but i didn't like his effort to block that shot that came his way 

Tkachuk,  easily a game changer 

 

The only name you could convince me is an upgrade is Laviolette , and even then Id tell you Ward got a raw deal 

This...just..No!

The coach sets the mental tone for the group in preparation, style/discipline of play and in execution for any team. It is the coaches job to forge a teams identity, without one and good coaching the players are lost. Ward isn’t a bad coach. He’s just not THE coach for this team. He did a good job all things considered this season, however he clearly lacked the ability to adjust to in game situations. 
 

We won the regular season series against the Stars, so no they weren’t clearly the better team. When you’re up 3 goals in the playoffs and allow 7 straight goals against do you think Ward really “has the room”? Whatever he said behind those close doors evoked such a reaction from the team they allowed 7 straight goals?!?... In the playoffs!!? You’re right...this wasn’t the Colorado collapse because it was the Dallas Stars collapse! Ward was behind the bench to witness them both. 
 

Once Ward started juggling lines prior to the break you could sense some desperation. Him pulling Talbot was just another example of Ward panicking. He was out coached and the team was outplayed. 
 

Who exactly were the Calgary Flames under Geoff Ward? The year posed a lot of instability and the team played as such under his tenure. We were consistently inconsistent all year. Now that’s not 100% on Ward, there’s  blame to be shared. But it’s pretty clear the Calgary Flames would only go so far under Geoff Ward. He’s amongst one of the changes this team needs.  

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

...

Who exactly were the Calgary Flames under Geoff Ward? The year posed a lot of instability and the team played as such under his tenure. We were consistently inconsistent all year. Now that’s not 100% on Ward, there’s  blame to be shared. But it’s pretty clear the Calgary Flames would only go so far under Geoff Ward. He’s amongst one of the changes this team needs.  

 

Honestly, I don't know how the team managed to collapse so quickly.

It's nothing that happened behind closed doors.

He pulled the goalie and the goalie fell apart, but the team normally has the goalie's back.

You could see them almost thinkng that Rittich was not capable of making a save.

Ras diving on the puck.

 

It was an epic collapse.

I guess COL has the same issues.

One mistake magnifies the other ones.

Every shot becomes a HD scoring chance even when it isn;t.

 

I don't like some of Ward's decision making.

Waiting too long and having no backup plan that's been tested.

He had months to figure this out.

And yet we see the reaction after it's too late to change course.

A good coach over his head maybe.

[jjgallow]

On 8/23/2020 at 4:30 PM, travel_dude said:

 

Sometimes it's just one game.

 

 

ok, but, it never is actually just one game unless it's a one-game series.  You have to kind of contort your perspective to see it that way.   And maybe there's a time and place for that, but, do you notice how it's been happening on here in every post-season for the last decade, and most regular seasons too?

 

Honestly the Flames had a better playoff performance under Ward than what they had last year.

 

Unless of course you focus on just one game and fire the coach.   

 

Because that will totally fix this.

[rickross]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Honestly, I don't know how the team managed to collapse so quickly.

It's nothing that happened behind closed doors.

He pulled the goalie and the goalie fell apart, but the team normally has the goalie's back.

You could see them almost thinkng that Rittich was not capable of making a save.

Ras diving on the puck.

 

It was an epic collapse.

I guess COL has the same issues.

One mistake magnifies the other ones.

Every shot becomes a HD scoring chance even when it isn;t.

 

I don't like some of Ward's decision making.

Waiting too long and having no backup plan that's been tested.

He had months to figure this out.

And yet we see the reaction after it's too late to change course.

A good coach over his head maybe.

I was rooting for Ward initially until it become apparent we really struggled with identity this year. Under Ward I just found the Flames rarely if ever asserted their game onto the opponents. We also rarely scored first so we’d spend good portions playing catch-up and adapting to the others teams style of play. It seemed as though Ward just lacked the skill of a high level tactician. When the Flames game plan failed ...he’d just start shuffling lines. I just never saw him making in game adjustments that worked effectively. We struggled putting together full 60 mins games, each period was a different Flames team on the ice. He’s a good coach but we need an Elite coach.   We’ve tried gambling on coaches like Gully, tried reclamation projects with Hartley and gave a fairly unproven coach in BP an opportunity. It’s high time we just went all in on a coach, this way if that still fails then we know it’s 100 % on our players 
 

 

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, rickross said:

I was rooting for Ward initially until it become apparent we really struggled with identity this year. Under Ward I just found the Flames rarely if ever asserted their game onto the opponents. We also rarely scored first so we’d spend good portions playing catch-up and adapting to the others teams style of play. It seemed as though Ward just lacked the skill of a high level tactician. When the Flames game plan failed ...he’d just start shuffling lines. I just never saw him making in game adjustments that worked effectively. We struggled putting together full 60 mins games, each period was a different Flames team on the ice. He’s a good coach but we need an Elite coach.   We’ve tried gambling on coaches like Gully, tried reclamation projects with Hartley and gave a fairly unproven coach in BP an opportunity. It’s high time we just went all in on a coach, this way if that still fails then we know it’s 100 % on our players 
 

 

 

god you look at what the islanders are doing under Trotz!!! The buy in! The team game.

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, rickross said:

I was rooting for Ward initially until it become apparent we really struggled with identity this year. Under Ward I just found the Flames rarely if ever asserted their game onto the opponents. We also rarely scored first so we’d spend good portions playing catch-up and adapting to the others teams style of play. It seemed as though Ward just lacked the skill of a high level tactician. When the Flames game plan failed ...he’d just start shuffling lines. I just never saw him making in game adjustments that worked effectively. We struggled putting together full 60 mins games, each period was a different Flames team on the ice. He’s a good coach but we need an Elite coach.   We’ve tried gambling on coaches like Gully, tried reclamation projects with Hartley and gave a fairly unproven coach in BP an opportunity. It’s high time we just went all in on a coach, this way if that still fails then we know it’s 100 % on our players 
 

 

 

Rierdon got the axe after some strange decisions in the playoffs.

There's good and bad with Ward.

It seems like the team bought into what he was selling, but I don't know if it was the right thing.

 

I tend to think that a proven coach is the way to go.

Pick one that can work with other coaches.

FFS, fix the defensive play.

There was no reason for the collapse.

Or getting shelled in other games.

Whatever the defensive system we had seemed to get tossed.

I don't think the players forgot how to play.

It's like we adapted to a team, but the adaptation was flawed.

 

There's much to fix with this team.

Not from how we did in the playoffs.

Regular season should have been a clear indication that we were headed this way.

It's almost like we watched the way a team played in another century and picked that strategy.

 

The first 10 minutes in game 6 was all Flames.

Even allowing a goal shouldn't have sunk us.

[rickross]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Rierdon got the axe after some strange decisions in the playoffs.

There's good and bad with Ward.

It seems like the team bought into what he was selling, but I don't know if it was the right thing.

 

I tend to think that a proven coach is the way to go.

Pick one that can work with other coaches.

FFS, fix the defensive play.

There was no reason for the collapse.

Or getting shelled in other games.

Whatever the defensive system we had seemed to get tossed.

I don't think the players forgot how to play.

It's like we adapted to a team, but the adaptation was flawed.

 

There's much to fix with this team.

Not from how we did in the playoffs.

Regular season should have been a clear indication that we were headed this way.

It's almost like we watched the way a team played in another century and picked that strategy.

 

The first 10 minutes in game 6 was all Flames.

Even allowing a goal shouldn't have sunk us.

Yeah the collapses...they are really hard to understand. Flames during the Hartley tenure had a never die attitude and they won a ridiculous amount of comeback games. That same drive is non existent on this team, as soon as 1 thing goes wrong it’s all over, they just cannot recover and regroup. Not saying I’d rather we have Hartleys edition of the Flames, far from it but I do miss that ability to Will our way to win games. 
 

Looks like next season is already starting to shape up, Kapenen is now a Penguin and the Leafs got a 1st rd pick out of it...

[cross16]

I am a strong advocate that whatever you want to do with the coach, this is mostly a player problem. If the plan is to keep the players and think a new coach will fix everything that is wrong IMO. However, i would also disagree that coaching is not an issue here or that Ward is a good option going forward. While I thikn the mental approach/strenght of your group comes from the players I do think the coach has an impact here. Coaches who are strong with in game adjustments and bench management can have an impact on the game and Game 6 is a prime example. Veteran coach in Rick Bowness calls a time out to settle his guys in a calm manor, while Geoff Ward pulls off a panic style move by pulling his goalie. Bowness and the Stars made sublte adjustments to their style and deployment all series where Ward made very little. Ward also kept his a line out for 3 mins at the end of the game. I think all of those things play into the mental strength and approach of your team but while I see flaws in his management it's also not fair to pin it all on him. this has been building for years too. 

 

it just makes me not believe he is the guy going forward. However as I've said, and still believe, if you cannot get one of the top guys (or ownership won't pay for them) I don't see value in rolling the dice on another up and comer or anything. So either get a veteran with good experience or keep ward, even though i don't see anything in him other than a slightly below avg NHL head coach. 

 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

it just makes me not believe he is the guy going forward. However as I've said, and still believe, if you cannot get one of the top guys (or ownership won't pay for them) I don't see value in rolling the dice on another up and comer or anything. So either get a veteran with good experience or keep ward, even though i don't see anything in him other than a slightly below avg NHL head coach. 

 

There's the point.

WAS is going to interview Lavi.

That leaves only a few (if not a single guy) that would be good.

 

But, I also have to point to our defensive structure and how badly it failed during the playoffs.

Was the system right and the players veered away from it or was it not a winning strategy?

[cross16]

23 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

There's the point.

WAS is going to interview Lavi.

That leaves only a few (if not a single guy) that would be good.

 

But, I also have to point to our defensive structure and how badly it failed during the playoffs.

Was the system right and the players veered away from it or was it not a winning strategy?

 

I put that on Ward personally and another factor for me in this mental strength argument. Ward installed a collapse down, take away the middle of the ice strategy that IMO is a very poor fit with how the roster is constructed. It worked well against a depleted WPG team but it played right into the Stars favor and they exploited it. 

 

I will give Ward an out here though. When you take over mid season you do not have an opportunity to truly install your own system, program etc. I don't like how they were playing but I can't put that all on Ward necessarily without speaking to him about it. 

 

but I also don't think the Flames were poor defensively against the Stars, nor do i think that was a key reason they lost the series. 

[phoenix66]

19 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I put that on Ward personally and another factor for me in this mental strength argument. Ward installed a collapse down, take away the middle of the ice strategy that IMO is a very poor fit with how the roster is constructed. It worked well against a depleted WPG team but it played right into the Stars favor and they exploited it. 

 

I will give Ward an out here though. When you take over mid season you do not have an opportunity to truly install your own system, program etc. I don't like how they were playing but I can't put that all on Ward necessarily without speaking to him about it. 

 

but I also don't think the Flames were poor defensively against the Stars, nor do i think that was a key reason they lost the series. 

I think one thing overlooked was the situations that burned us the most , the scrambles and close in pressure .. is precisely where we missed Hamonic . Not enough players  dropping to block shots . Even the no stick goal ,  Dube should have been dropping in front of that but he made a half effort to get in the way .

 

In terms of coaching , not sure who that's on  but right now I'm watching Dallas doing exactly to Colorado what they did to us. Not to let them off the hook but I'm giving more credit to Dallas now than I was before 

 

I personally think Ward did enough . Just like the players , he gets to learn and grow as well .Were mistakes made ?  Yes ..  but I bet id we got to play some moments again there would be differences .

And it comes back to who is really out there?

I'll stand by saying only Laviolette makes me willing to change.

Babcock .. no 

 

Boudreau?..sure let's bring in a coach that doesn't win in the playoffs to fix a team that doesn't win in the playoffs 

 

Rierden?  He was supposed to be the next golden child ..he just got fired..he's not an upgrade 

 

Gallant ?  I get the attraction, but he historically has a low shelf life .. didn't do much in Florida or Columbus, and anytime a coach gets fired and many can't figure out why.(twice).something is happening backstage 

 

Carlyle?   Haha.. just kidding 

Another up and coming next one ?  Let's not do that again 

 

Our last 2 coaches were fired because they lost the team.. (and the other was starting the year looking like the same thing). That's why BT fires coaches .. I'd be highly surprised if he doesn't announce Ward here very soon