Blockbuster: Hamilton Ferland Fox for Hanifin Lindholm

[Cowtownguy]

23 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think the belief is that Brodie is better defensively than Hamilton.

The signs are there that Brodie "could" return to Norris level with Gio.

It's less about Brodie whining than it is about improving the top 4.

Where did the whining part come from? I believe that conundrumed recently linked to some really great charity work that Brodie and his wife are doing under difficult circumstances. That is particularly impressive given what they must be going through. After I lost my first wife to cancer over a decade ago, I went from 200lbs to 168lbs in the span of about 6 weeks despite keeping the Columbia Brewing Company working overtime for a few months. Not surprisingly, I found it difficult to concentrate on work and made thoughtless errors from time to time. In reality, the lead up to her death was the most difficult thing to deal with (gluing lungs to rib cage, blood transfusions, chemo etc.). I don't care who you are, personal struggles are going to impact work performance, and you just don't dump a player who is struggling for a time and make things worse for them. Players who work through significant struggles like this often become better people and build better clubs. If, and I mean IF, Treliving had a choice of moving out a player dealing with serious personal struggles vs moving a whiny little bee-otch who demands more PP time, his brother to be on the same team, and a gold copy of "Man's Search for Meaning" in the dressing room, I will take the struggling player. 

 

I acknowledge that I know of nothing problematic about Hamilton. Maybe he is a top notch person.

[cross16]

This is a pretty simple breakdown but worth considering if you want to look at the overall assets breakdown of what Treliving spent to get Hamilton then trade them.

 

Flames eventually wound up trading what amounts to:

2015 15th overall pick

2015 45th overall pick

2015 52nd overall pick

2016 66th overall pick

2010 133rd overall pick

 

for

2013 5th overall pick

2015 5th overall pick.

 

Your individual opinion of the players drafted in those spots sways you, but from a macro level it's pretty difficult to look at that and question Treliving's overall asset management.

 

I've obviously debated it a lot and I still don't like it. I wanted more if Hamilton and Fox were on the move so this is still a trade I need to be proven wrong on. However, I can easily see the rationale behind it, why the Flames did it, and it's also not hard to see a scenario where this trades works out well for both sides. Just my personal opinion that I will dislike it until the results prove me otherwise unfortunately.

 

It makes me nervous with the prevailing story coming out of a trade was "it improved the locker room". In most cases I find that is either a - a sign you initially lost the trade or b - a sign that you just did not have a talented enough team. When the Flames went to the playoffs last year I didn't hear any "museum" stories about Hamilton. This stuff tends to come out when you lose, which is a sign your team wasn't good enough. 

[MAC331]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think the belief is that Brodie is better defensively than Hamilton.

The signs are there that Brodie "could" return to Norris level with Gio.

It's less about Brodie whining than it is about improving the top 4.

On the ice Brodie doesn't measure up against Hamilton, never will either. Both were not great defenders and Brodie was worse IMO. I don't think we should be trusting Brodie returns to best season of 11 goals and 30 assists.

[cross16]

I think calling either player a "whiner" is terrible on any fans part.

 

Brodie got moved off a pair that he was probably very happy with and moved over to a side he hadn't played on in years. It would have been really easy for Brodie to pubcally blame his play on that and he NEVER did. He took a ton of garbage criticism and he stood up and faced it. 

 

All Hamilton did as a Flame is produce and create one of the best pairings in the NHL, and did it on a bargain contract. Not putting him on the PP is probably one of the most bizare coaching decisions i've ever seen, and taking him off an elite pair to create an inferior one I also find perplexing and if I were him i'd be chocked too.

 

let's be better please....

[MAC331]

44 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Where did the whining part come from? I believe that conundrumed recently linked to some really great charity work that Brodie and his wife are doing under difficult circumstances. That is particularly impressive given what they must be going through. After I lost my first wife to cancer over a decade ago, I went from 200lbs to 168lbs in the span of about 6 weeks despite keeping the Columbia Brewing Company working overtime for a few months. Not surprisingly, I found it difficult to concentrate on work and made thoughtless errors from time to time. In reality, the lead up to her death was the most difficult thing to deal with (gluing lungs to rib cage, blood transfusions, chemo etc.). I don't care who you are, personal struggles are going to impact work performance, and you just don't dump a player who is struggling for a time and make things worse for them. Players who work through significant struggles like this often become better people and build better clubs. If, and I mean IF, Treliving had a choice of moving out a player dealing with serious personal struggles vs moving a whiny little bee-otch who demands more PP time, his brother to be on the same team, and a gold copy of "Man's Search for Meaning" in the dressing room, I will take the struggling player. 

 

I acknowledge that I know of nothing problematic about Hamilton. Maybe he is a top notch person.

Maybe they both are but if BT can do better his job is to improve the team. Brodie has not been a very good player for awhile now and Hamilton has his own on ice weaknesses. As professional sports players they have to learn to leave their personal situations out of the room and the ice. Nobody is saying either of these two are bad people.

[travel_dude]

56 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Where did the whining part come from? I believe that conundrumed recently linked to some really great charity work that Brodie and his wife are doing under difficult circumstances. That is particularly impressive given what they must be going through. After I lost my first wife to cancer over a decade ago, I went from 200lbs to 168lbs in the span of about 6 weeks despite keeping the Columbia Brewing Company working overtime for a few months. Not surprisingly, I found it difficult to concentrate on work and made thoughtless errors from time to time. In reality, the lead up to her death was the most difficult thing to deal with (gluing lungs to rib cage, blood transfusions, chemo etc.). I don't care who you are, personal struggles are going to impact work performance, and you just don't dump a player who is struggling for a time and make things worse for them. Players who work through significant struggles like this often become better people and build better clubs. If, and I mean IF, Treliving had a choice of moving out a player dealing with serious personal struggles vs moving a whiny little bee-otch who demands more PP time, his brother to be on the same team, and a gold copy of "Man's Search for Meaning" in the dressing room, I will take the struggling player. 

 

I acknowledge that I know of nothing problematic about Hamilton. Maybe he is a top notch person.

 

If you look at what I was quoting, you see where the term "whining" came from.  

I have never said anywhere that Brodie was a whiner, and I hope you didn't take that from the way I worded my post.

 

EDIT - and I see that it was Hammy whining and Brodie pouting.  I don't subscribe to either.

[CheersMan]

For one reason or another Hamilton had to be traded and he was the corner stone of the trade.  Ferland and Fox were canon fodder but expendable.  Going to miss Ferland's snipes and toughness.  Fox was way down the depth chart.  I'm sure Tree had many offers on the table including high draft picks and futures but we are in "Win Now" mode and Tree was able to bring back a top 4 dman and a top 6 RW, both with upside potential.  I think we are going to be ok.       

[MAC331]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you look at what I was quoting, you see where the term "whining" came from.  

I have never said anywhere that Brodie was a whiner, and I hope you didn't take that from the way I worded my post.

 

EDIT - and I see that it was Hammy whining and Brodie pouting.  I don't subscribe to either.

Aren't you two the puritans.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

For one reason or another Hamilton had to be traded and he was the corner stone of the trade.  Ferland and Fox were canon fodder but expendable.  Going to miss Ferland's snipes and toughness.  Fox was way down the depth chart.  I'm sure Tree had many offers on the table including high draft picks and futures but we are in "Win Now" mode and Tree was able to bring back a top 4 dman and a top 6 RW, both with upside potential.  I think we are going to be ok.       

 

I doubt there was much in the way of picks combined with at least one player.  

This isn't about win now as much as it is about trying to get better long term while not disemboweling the team.

Lindholm was a buy-low player but he had decent value.

Hanifin is still buy low, but had decent value.

 

We got a true RW/C and a top 4 D.  That's about all you could expect from a trade of this sort.

Toronto may have offered Nylander.

ARI may have offered Chychrun or Fischer, but we don't get both.

 

 

[CheersMan]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I doubt there was much in the way of picks combined with at least one player.  

This isn't about win now as much as it is about trying to get better long term while not disemboweling the team.

Lindholm was a buy-low player but he had decent value.

Hanifin is still buy low, but had decent value.

 

We got a true RW/C and a top 4 D.  That's about all you could expect from a trade of this sort.

Toronto may have offered Nylander.

ARI may have offered Chychrun or Fischer, but we don't get both.

 

 

I'm thinking Edm would have paid that but not sure Tree wanted Hamilton in Edmonton.  PC would have offered his 10OA for sure which would help us get better long term.  Were not long term any more, our window is shorter.

[Flyerfan52]

I don't care about the gossip concerning Hamilton after the fact 1 whit. He's a good player but on a 20th place team something has to change & you give to get.

Our top 6 is now better though our top 4D might have taken a slight hit offensively. Hopefully the addition of Andersson &/or Vilimaki makes up the difference.

In 1 fell swoop BT got us a player who projects to be our best RW in the now & rearranged the D into a manageable top 4 with Brodie likel moving back to his preferred right side where he worked well with Gio while Hamonic with Hanifin projects to be an opposing forwards mightmare.

Those that say we lost toughness in Ferland should remember he hasn't played that way as much recently while our newest 2 players aren't known to shy away from the tough stuff. & we still have Tkachuk & Hamonic so @ most times will have a guy willing to stand up for teammates that is actually on the ice @ the moment.

We'll see come the season if my belief we now have a better team is correct but I see something more rounded so harder to play against.

 

Someone guessed the cost of re-signing the 2 in a post a few pages ago so I figured I'd contribute my nickle worth of a guess. I figure $9.5-10 for the duo with it shaking out @ either Lindholm 5-5.5 & Hanifin @ 4.5ish. That's a cost efficient way of adding 2 good players we needed rather than overpaying Ferland for his bonanza time with Gaudreau & Monahan.

 

Fox really doesn't enter into my thinking as I've thought for a while he's going to go the UFA declaration route to get max ELC $s rather than the lower 1s most 3rd rounders get. IMO he's Canes property on paper only so no loss.

[rickross]

This has been one of the ugliest Flames trades in sometime. I'm still of the belief that it's a fair trade, both teams get great value. The ugly part is how publicly the discontent of Hamilton and Fox is turning into a near smear campaign on their character. I'm sure there are some truths to the locker room issues but we'll never know the whole story. No point crucifying any of these players without knowing all the facts. I'm looking forward to watching Hanifin and Lindholm, as much as we can discuss if and by how much BT has overpaid on certain trades in hindsight but atleast our GM is trying. He continues to outwork the other managers as he tries to improve his team, he's been stealing the draft since 2015...even when he didn't have picks, still walked away with the headline this year. I haven't agreed with all his moves but I've never doubted his intent to continually upgrade the Flames. Now he's officially on the clock, this franchise needs to take that crucial next step

[cross16]

25 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 Were not long term any more, our window is shorter.

 

In this trade, the Flames got years younger, gave up current results for potential, and gained potential cost/cap certainty. In fact it was specifically mentioned that Ferland's UFA status next year played a part in including him in the trade. This was not a trade made with a shorter window in mind. 

 

Problem with dealing with the 10 overall pick if you are likely not going to come away with a Dman near the talent of Noah Hanifin. Could even argue you wouldn't have gotten a talent the likes of Lindholm either and honestly outside of the 10th overall pick, what does Edm have to offer? Even ignoring the rivalry and Hamilton in the division, a trade target never made sense due to Oiler's limited assets. 

[cccsberg]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

On the ice Brodie doesn't measure up against Hamilton, never will either. Both were not great defenders and Brodie was worse IMO. I don't think we should be trusting Brodie returns to best season of 11 goals and 30 assists.

Well, if you ignore the stats numbers, lets look at the coaching usage of each.  I think its safe to say Brodie got more PP time, Brodie got more PK time, Brodie got more ice time and Brodie got more league respect (Norris voting) during the peak season for each and other years too.  Brodie is faster.  Hamilton has a better shot, and scores more as a result.  Hamilton shoots more, Brodie passes more.  It doesn't really matter "who is the best defenseman", Calgary needed to make some changes after last year and have decided to make this trade.  They got some very high-level players back.  All in all a good trade.  Now waiting to see what comes next.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Well, if you ignore the stats numbers, lets look at the coaching usage of each.  I think its safe to say Brodie got more PP time, Brodie got more PK time, Brodie got more ice time and Brodie got more league respect (Norris voting) during the peak season for each and other years too.  Brodie is faster.  Hamilton has a better shot, and scores more as a result.  Hamilton shoots more, Brodie passes more.  It doesn't really matter "who is the best defenseman", Calgary needed to make some changes after last year and have decided to make this trade.  They got some very high-level players back.  All in all a good trade.  Now waiting to see what comes next.

 

The only part I have an issue with is trading a RHS for a LHS.

The fact that Brodie can play either side is a blessing in disguise.

Unfortunately, unless Stone is moved, he may still be considered by some (coach or GM) as being the 5/6 guy.  It just makes it harder to play the better player in Andersson.

 

We are deep on defense, but did give up two RHS, one being just a prospect.   

[MAC331]

24 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Well, if you ignore the stats numbers, lets look at the coaching usage of each.  I think its safe to say Brodie got more PP time, Brodie got more PK time, Brodie got more ice time and Brodie got more league respect (Norris voting) during the peak season for each and other years too.  Brodie is faster.  Hamilton has a better shot, and scores more as a result.  Hamilton shoots more, Brodie passes more.  It doesn't really matter "who is the best defenseman", Calgary needed to make some changes after last year and have decided to make this trade.  They got some very high-level players back.  All in all a good trade.  Now waiting to see what comes next.

I said in an earlier thread they could keep all of their defensemen and just pair them differently for hopefully better results. The fact that Hamilton was traded and another LSD came back in the deal provides us the position of having Brodie play either side. We don't have to trade him but if I'm BT I would still be prepared to listen, sooner or later both Brodie and Giordano should be dealt.

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

In this trade, the Flames got years younger, gave up current results for potential, and gained potential cost/cap certainty. In fact it was specifically mentioned that Ferland's UFA status next year played a part in including him in the trade. This was not a trade made with a shorter window in mind. 

 

Problem with dealing with the 10 overall pick if you are likely not going to come away with a Dman near the talent of Noah Hanifin. Could even argue you wouldn't have gotten a talent the likes of Lindholm either and honestly outside of the 10th overall pick, what does Edm have to offer? Even ignoring the rivalry and Hamilton in the division, a trade target never made sense due to Oiler's limited assets. 

 

I agree with everything except the bolded.  Like Peeps said above, Edm has assets and they are desperate for such player but there is now way Tree sends him there.  I commend Tree for bringing back players that help in the present and future, not just the future.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, CheersMan said:

 

I agree with everything except the bolded.  Like Peeps said above, Edm has assets but there is now way Tree sends him there.  I commend Tree for bringing back players that help in the present and future, not just the future.

 

I guess to each his own, but I don't see what people would have wanted from Edmonton. 10th overall and Puljujarvi? 10th overall and Kelfboom? Falls really short of what they got, at least for me. 

[CheersMan]

Just now, cross16 said:

 

I guess to each his own, but I don't see what people would have wanted from Edmonton. 10th overall and Puljujarvi? 10th overall and Kelfboom? Falls really short of what they got, at least for me. 

Pretty sure we would have taken Puljijarvi over Tkachuk if our draft order was switched with Edm in 2016 

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Pretty sure we would have taken Puljijarvi over Tkachuk if our draft order was switched with Edm in 2016 

 

I use to agree but now I don't. I think they wanted Tkachuk the whole time. 

 

I still like him and that wasn't meant as a negative comment towards him. I just think Flames are better off with Hanifin/Lindholm then the 10th overal pick and Puljujarvi. 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I use to agree but now I don't. I think they wanted Tkachuk the whole time. 

 

I still like him and that wasn't meant as a negative comment towards him. I just think Flames are better off with Hanifin/Lindholm then the 10th overal pick and Puljujarvi. 

 

I think we were going for Tkachuk and that was the only reason why we were trying to deal with the BJ's.  

Strange that they wouldn't take either the EDM or the CGY deal and took their guy regardless.

[CheersMan]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I use to agree but now I don't. I think they wanted Tkachuk the whole time. 

 

I still like him and that wasn't meant as a negative comment towards him. I just think Flames are better off with Hanifin/Lindholm then the 10th overal pick and Puljujarvi. 

Yes, maybe.

I wonder if Edm was offering Puljijarvi and the 10 OA for just Hamilton?  We keep Ferland and Fox.

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think we were going for Tkachuk and that was the only reason why we were trying to deal with the BJ's.  

Strange that they wouldn't take either the EDM or the CGY deal and took their guy regardless.

 

I've always wondered if it fell apart because everyone realized they were going to get what they want. EDM apparently was drafting D all the way and only changed course because Puljujarvi was there, and Friedman mentioned once that apparently Van let it be known they wanted D too. So I wonder if it just came down to everyone realizing they were going to get what they want and they didn't need to make any deals.

 

Just now, CheersMan said:

Yes, maybe.

I wonder if Edm was offering Puljijarvi and the 10 OA for just Hamilton?  We keep Ferland and Fox.

 

I don't doubt the tried but that's an awful deal IMO at least. I don't love the trade, but i would greatly prefer it to that one. 

[robrob74]

If I were Hamilton I’d be pissed too. You have a player in Brouwer essentially playing his spot on the PP and NOT getting points, and having to watch a dismal one from the bench. I am surprised a lot more don’t want out after the use of Brouwer last year. I’d be thinking that if they don’t like what I can bring to the team then I am gone. How much can you take? 50 games if watching yet bring the best option for that spot.

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I guess to each his own, but I don't see what people would have wanted from Edmonton. 10th overall and Puljujarvi? 10th overall and Kelfboom? Falls really short of what they got, at least for me. 

 

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

If I were Hamilton I’d be pissed too. You have a player in Brouwer essentially playing his spot on the PP and NOT getting points, and having to watch a dismal one from the bench. I am surprised a lot more don’t want out after the use of Brouwer last year. I’d be thinking that if they don’t like what I can bring to the team then I am gone. How much can you take? 50 games if watching yet bring the best option for that spot.

 

10 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

If I were Hamilton I’d be pissed too. You have a player in Brouwer essentially playing his spot on the PP and NOT getting points, and having to watch a dismal one from the bench. I am surprised a lot more don’t want out after the use of Brouwer last year. I’d be thinking that if they don’t like what I can bring to the team then I am gone. How much can you take? 50 games if watching yet bring the best option for that spot.

This is likely a very reasonable scenario, and not just for Hamilton.  Probably also a large part of what got GG fired.