So Where do we go from here? Analysis & Predictions

[MAC331]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think there are several versions of the ideal top line RW:

• a skilled player that can make/receive passes and finish the play (Hudler type); this setup may not work as well in the playoffs if the opposing team is able to lay the body on the wingers
• a big body player that can skate and finish the play 

Ferland has shown the ability to play at this level, but his LHS can be a detriment to developing plays.  He has taken a few steps forward this past season, so he may be the right guy for the job long term.

 

Ideally you want a player with similar qualities to what JG's are but with some size. ANA in 2015 was smart in damaging Hudler and scaring him off so they could concentrate on shutting down JG. Monahan also has to expand his abilities to help with this.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Ideally you want a player with similar qualities to what JG's are but with some size. ANA in 2015 was smart in damaging Hudler and scaring him off so they could concentrate on shutting down JG. Monahan also has to expand his abilities to help with this.

 

I think Hudler got injured in the LA game before the playoffs started, when he got a cross check to the forearm. It may have been by Reggie. He hasn't been the same player since that game.

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

The Flames have in Gaudreau possibly one of the most dynamic players in the NHL. But as a team we are doing NOTHING to emphasize/protect/ensure that. Sean M is a 6/3 200 lb center man; he finds and makes space in the slot but he does nothing to protect JG his set up man. We need SM and Ferland to start creating space for JG if they want JG to remain on their line. If not we need to find a Center and RW to open up the JG potential. Unless we find a way to protect JG we need to realize the Flames are not the type of team that can fully utilize a potential generational player in JG and should look to make a trade before he is long term injured or has regressed to a point of low value.  

Let's not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to Gaudreau. First of all he needs to stand up for himself and quit whining. Secondly Monahan has to do more for himself on that line buying JG some space. Thirdly a RW with similar abilities to JG would be the ultimate threat to any opposition. Then we have an effective line.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to Gaudreau. First of all he needs to stand up for himself and quit whining. Secondly Monahan has to do more for himself on that line buying JG some space. Thirdly a RW with similar abilities to JG would be the ultimate threat to any opposition. Then we have an effective line.

 

 

I agree with what the other poster said. Although he didn't say Gaudreau needs to stop whining, I agree with you there. Gaudreau isn't big enough to always stand up for himself. What I'd like to see, where I see with other teams, someone go after the player once he nearly injures Gaudreau. How can he stick up for himself if he is injured?

 

but I think he can make more room for himself simply by utilizing the line mates a bit more coming into the zone. 

[MAC331]

29 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I agree with what the other poster said. Although he didn't say Gaudreau needs to stop whining, I agree with you there. Gaudreau isn't big enough to always stand up for himself. What I'd like to see, where I see with other teams, someone go after the player once he nearly injures Gaudreau. How can he stick up for himself if he is injured?

 

but I think he can make more room for himself simply by utilizing the line mates a bit more coming into the zone. 

I'm sure this will get addressed sooner rather than later. Gaudreau can do a number of things to help himself out there.

[redfire11]

39 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves when it comes to Gaudreau. First of all he needs to stand up for himself and quit whining. Secondly Monahan has to do more for himself on that line buying JG some space. Thirdly a RW with similar abilities to JG would be the ultimate threat to any opposition. Then we have an effective line.

So realistically how does a 5'9" 160 lb guy protect himself from a 6'+ 200lb+ guy. 4 ways; complain to authorities, martial arts, a big stick, a body guard.

-Complaining to the refs (your definition to whining) hasn't worked but is still one of JG's defense mechanisms.

-Martial arts; doesn't happen in hockey

-A big stick; If JG is in the penalty box he is no good to us

-Body guards; Last option and NO ONE on this Flame team has stepped up to the task

 

[zima]

I think alot of our problem in these playoffs were Refs you can see it in the Oilers game as well Ducks can take all the Liberties  and get away with it hitting the goalie waking with the stick cross checking after the play no calls. I think that is why Mr T was not able to play his game. So if you retaliated in any way it was a penalty thats what I saw.It's an American own commodity and the big bucks is in the states if canadian teams go to the Stanley Cup then they don't get the American viewers. I know this isn't the forum  for this rant but just saying no 1 could help JG becuase we were trying to win the game any retaliation would result in a penalty.

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, zima said:

So Ferland is Arbitration eligible are we going to try and sign him or let him walk like Colburn. I bet Fer thinks he is an elite player or close to it and is going to ask for the moon or does he go with a 3 yr 3 mil contract ? Chason is also in that realm but im sure we will not try resign unless he agrees to a cap friendly contract.  Smid is gone finally he got himself an awesome paid vacation contract Bolig is gone eng, wides , Chad and Elliot gone I hope Saying that they both could of had bad yrs but would you take a chance on that?  Hathaway probaly gone Arbitration elig as well as spoon and Vey so know we start a new group of kids to replace the old. I just hope Bennett is'nt thinking he deserves same as Mony he should site in the 3 mil or a show me more contract.

Yeah, that $8 thousand Smid counted again the cap really hurt. We had a reliable D for a couple of years @ a good cost.

***********************************************************************

I was never 1 of Backlund's big fans like some here but every year he proves his value. Suddenly I figure we need him more than he needs us. I'd love to have him back @ long term (5-6) @ 5.5 but go 6 if needed.

As a Bennett supporter it hurts to say this but I'm tired of waiting for him to become even part of what I was expecting. Maybe he will if elsewhere but if he expects much of a bump from his ELC he hasn't earned it. A 1 year bridge @ 1.5ish would be a call out & maybe get him to realize that the NHL has a short shelf life. Right  now he carries value so included in a trade we get a better player than we would if we didn't include him. Since he just doesn't seem to be cutting it here maybe it's time to cut bait. Maybe my expectations were too high but it takes a lot of disappointment for me to reverse this way. Backlund keeps proving to be what we hope Bennett would be.

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Yeah, that $8 thousand Smid counted again the cap really hurt. We had a reliable D for a couple of years @ a good cost.

***********************************************************************

I was never 1 of Backlund's big fans like some here but every year he proves his value. Suddenly I figure we need him more than he needs us. I'd love to have him back @ long term (5-6) @ 5.5 but go 6 if needed.

As a Bennett supporter it hurts to say this but I'm tired of waiting for him to become even part of what I was expecting. Maybe he will if elsewhere but if he expects much of a bump from his ELC he hasn't earned it. A 1 year bridge @ 1.5ish would be a call out & maybe get him to realize that the NHL has a short shelf life. Right  now he carries value so included in a trade we get a better player than we would if we didn't include him. Since he just doesn't seem to be cutting it here maybe it's time to cut bait. Maybe my expectations were too high but it takes a lot of disappointment for me to reverse this way. Backlund keeps proving to be what we hope Bennett would be.

 

I think Backlund will ask for $6-mil-per with term.  In which case, we should consider trading Backlund and keeping Bennett.  I would try to resign Bennett at $3-mil-per for 3-years.

 

Other than that, I agree with your take.  Bennett is not getting it done.  Sure he is progressing and his playoff performance made his regular season numbers more palatable but still, he is falling short of expectation (aka Doug Gilmour equivalent).  If someone is willing to give us that kind of trade value for Bennett (aka Hanifin), then we should make the deal.  

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, redfire11 said:

The Flames have in Gaudreau possibly one of the most dynamic players in the NHL. But as a team we are doing NOTHING to emphasize/protect/ensure that. Sean M is a 6/3 200 lb center man; he finds and makes space in the slot but he does nothing to protect JG his set up man. We need SM and Ferland to start creating space for JG if they want JG to remain on their line. If not we need to find a Center and RW to open up the JG potential. Unless we find a way to protect JG we need to realize the Flames are not the type of team that can fully utilize a potential generational player in JG and should look to make a trade before he is long term injured or has regressed to a point of low value.  

Since you see Gaudreau as that 1 that his linemates need to protect (you keep using the word) doesn't it make more sense to trade him rather than having his linemates having to do that? The kid is @ high value now but if you waste the front line protecting him it's worse than trying to find Iggy the ideal partners.

Gaudreau is exciting but a winger that can play with a pretty decent center like Monahan should be easier to find than 2 talented babysitters to keep the little guy safe. Then the whole 1st line can concentrate on playing & winning games.

The use of potential after 4 years on Gaudreau is telling. He might become better but we can say that about all players (& the hoped for prospects). Strike while the iron & hot & replace him with some one that suits the line rather than try to build a line to accomadate him.

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think Backlund will ask for $6-mil-per with term.  In which case, we should consider trading Backlund and keeping Bennett.  I would try to resign Bennett at $3-mil-per for 3-years.

 

Other than that, I agree with your take.  Bennett is not getting it done.  Sure he is progressing and his playoff performance made his regular season numbers more palatable but still, he is falling short of expectation (aka Doug Gilmour equivalent).  If someone is willing to give us that kind of trade value for Bennett (aka Hanifin), then we should make the deal.  

Galchenyuk is prolly a good comparable @ $2.8 x 3.

 

On a sidenote, JG got rocked by a late hit v Germany, appears to be okay. US lost 2-1.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

So realistically how does a 5'9" 160 lb guy protect himself from a 6'+ 200lb+ guy. 4 ways; complain to authorities, martial arts, a big stick, a body guard.

-Complaining to the refs (your definition to whining) hasn't worked but is still one of JG's defense mechanisms.

-Martial arts; doesn't happen in hockey

-A big stick; If JG is in the penalty box he is no good to us

-Body guards; Last option and NO ONE on this Flame team has stepped up to the task

 

1. no it isn't as they have already tuned him out.

2. he can do it as an exercise, you would be amazed by the benefits

3. he needs to give some of what he gets back but you are right we don't need him continuously in the box

4. this team needs some muscle that isn't all push and shove after the fact, take some initiative

Now the smarter things for Gaudreau would be to use his wingers more decisively and quicker, don't get caught along the boards. Get back to his pick pocket defensive game rather than even try to mix it up. Shoot when the opportunity is there rather carry the puck so often.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think Hudler got injured in the LA game before the playoffs started, when he got a cross check to the forearm. It may have been by Reggie. He hasn't been the same player since that game.

That didn't help.  I believe it was more so in one of the first games against the Ducks; I vividly remember him doubled over at the entracne to the tunnel.  He could barely stand up.  It was a x-check on the back IIRC.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Since you see Gaudreau as that 1 that his linemates need to protect (you keep using the word) doesn't it make more sense to trade him rather than having his linemates having to do that? The kid is @ high value now but if you waste the front line protecting him it's worse than trying to find Iggy the ideal partners.

Gaudreau is exciting but a winger that can play with a pretty decent center like Monahan should be easier to find than 2 talented babysitters to keep the little guy safe. Then the whole 1st line can concentrate on playing & winning games.

The use of potential after 4 years on Gaudreau is telling. He might become better but we can say that about all players (& the hoped for prospects). Strike while the iron & hot & replace him with some one that suits the line rather than try to build a line to accomadate him.

 

He doesn't need a babysitter.  The team needs to have his back the same way they would for a vet or another player getting the business.  As far as trading him, even in an off year he put up enough points to help get us into the playoffs.  Not a great comparison, but Hall vs JH illustrates what a talent can do, even without a steady top line RW.  

 

Maybe we have seen the best of Johnny.  I think we are seeing the best of this sized player, but like Marty STL, a player of that size has to increase areas of strength that he can.  Leg strength is something he could work that would help immensely.  Might keep him from falling over on breakaways.  Maybe not.  McDavid falls whenever a fan farts on breakaways, as long as there is a defender in the vicinity.

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He doesn't need a babysitter.  The team needs to have his back the same way they would for a vet or another player getting the business.  As far as trading him, even in an off year he put up enough points to help get us into the playoffs.  Not a great comparison, but Hall vs JH illustrates what a talent can do, even without a steady top line RW.  

 

Maybe we have seen the best of Johnny.  I think we are seeing the best of this sized player, but like Marty STL, a player of that size has to increase areas of strength that he can.  Leg strength is something he could work that would help immensely.  Might keep him from falling over on breakaways.  Maybe not.  McDavid falls whenever a fan farts on breakaways, as long as there is a defender in the vicinity.

This isn't the time to be trading JG, we haven't seen anywhere close to what he has to offer. I would say this wasn't a great season for him, his passing decisions were not good a lot of times and this continuing circle backs has to stop. He seemed to either be frustrated or intimidated a lot and needs to better cope with the added attention. As a team there has to be ways provided to get guys off him and free him up for better efforts.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

This isn't the time to be trading JG, we haven't seen anywhere close to what he has to offer. I would say this wasn't a great season for him, his passing decisions were not good a lot of times and this continuing circle backs has to stop. He seemed to either be frustrated or intimidated a lot and needs to better cope with the added attention. As a team there has to be ways provided to get guys off him and free him up for better efforts.

 

I don't think I suggested trading him at all.  Maybe you don't build a line to protect him, but you definitely build a line that can score.  Johnny's best years for points were with Hudler and (insert RW replacement here).  The 2nd year he had Hudler for some of the year, but relied on fill in players the rest.

 

I thought that Versteeg would be a Hudler-like player for the top line, but he seemed to have better success on LW.  There's not much out there in UFA land, but a trade might bring someone good in.

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think I suggested trading him at all.  Maybe you don't build a line to protect him, but you definitely build a line that can score.  Johnny's best years for points were with Hudler and (insert RW replacement here).  The 2nd year he had Hudler for some of the year, but relied on fill in players the rest.

 

I thought that Versteeg would be a Hudler-like player for the top line, but he seemed to have better success on LW.  There's not much out there in UFA land, but a trade might bring someone good in.

I was more disputing FF and Peoples suggestion of trading him not you. As I have said I would go for TJ Oshie at our price and go from there. I never got why they used Versteeg on LW not RW other than Chiasson being around.

[conundrumed]

LV has signed Shepyachov from the K(St Petersburgh).

Evgenii Dadonov also rumoured.

Is Dadonov someone we should be interested in as a top 6 RW?

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

LV has signed Shepyachov from the K(St Petersburgh).

Evgenii Dadonov also rumoured.

Is Dadonov someone we should be interested in as a top 6 RW?

 

I wouldn't mind trying to find a defender there as well. Maybe the RW. 

[travel_dude]

What do you think of trading for Neal?  I hate the guy for his douchebaggery, but he can score.  Top line RW with a little more scoring prowess than Ferland.  Less risky short term deal.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I was more disputing FF and Peoples suggestion of trading him not you. As I have said I would go for TJ Oshie at our price and go from there. I never got why they used Versteeg on LW not RW other than Chiasson being around.

What's "our price" & what is the offer from a team like Carolina where Ron Francis is already being pro-active?

I remember you seem to think we'll get him for something like 5.5 x 3 because he's such a nice guy & thinks Calgary will appreciate him.

I'll turn off the sarcasm now but if the Canes offer this 30 year old money more = to the $s a Gaudreau, Monahan, Scheifele, etc. got like $6+ for say 4-5 years he's likely to take it. Before you say it'll give him a better chance @ the SC remember he's on the star studded Caps now.

Carolina looks to be an up & coming team with youngish vets @ forward & D backed by a very good bunch of even younger NHLers. With adding Darling they have @ least 1 goalie better than what they (& the Flames) had last year.

 

You don't get quality UFAs for bargain prices nor does standing pat just shuffling the deck chairs make a better team. Basing things on what you hope as far as players traded is for pretend but if you don't like a contract vs performance GMs notice that & have a whole staff to confirm it. Buyouts are a fool's game under a cap as it's usually  more expensive than retaining salary on the 2 allowed (yes, there is a limit same as the # of retained salary transactions).

 

We saw years wasted as we tried to build a top line around Iggy (some still complain) so do we really repeat it building a line around Gaudreau rather than trading him for parts that work with what we have in stock? You hopefully know what they say about repeating the same mistake.

 

Just in case you forgot the possibles mentioned on this board are opinions only & not attacks on you.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

LV has signed Shepyachov from the K(St Petersburgh).

Evgenii Dadonov also rumoured.

Is Dadonov someone we should be interested in as a top 6 RW?

Sounds like someone we need. I've heard Montreal is looking @ him as well.

What do the Flames or Habs offer that tops playing with his linemate on LV (a team with more cap space than the others have tied up in current contracts) have to offer? A contract similar to Shipachyov's for the younger RW gives both time to help LV off to a good start & opportunity for bigger contracts as UFAs in 2 years.

[conundrumed]

10 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Sounds like someone we need. I've heard Montreal is looking @ him as well.

What do the Flames or Habs offer that tops playing with his linemate on LV (a team with more cap space than the others have tied up in current contracts) have to offer? A contract similar to Shipachyov's for the younger RW gives both time to help LV off to a good start & opportunity for bigger contracts as UFAs in 2 years.

I completely agree with you.

The UFA list is weak at best, we don't have much in trade value, I'm just raking the lawn for alternatives.

The ironing in it all is that if we want someone who will stand up for JG, the best UFA right now at RW is likely Iginla...and we are the worst possible fit for him. Pretty sure he doesn't want another kick at, "I can't leave my house without being recognized".

In Canada, we make rock stars out of great hockey players. I wish we would understand, what we're doing is making them prisoners.

What's wrong with Cdn markets? boarding. Give them a normal life, not harassed constantly.

I met Burke his first year here and he was totally ducking.

All I said to him was, "hey, thanks for coming here". No selfies, no harassment, totally took the edge off. Cdns, stop harassing hockey people, it wears thin. Iginla wanted to leave and him and his family have never been happier.

Don't harass them, they WILL prefer US markets.

[Flyerfan52]

4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I completely agree with you.

The UFA list is weak at best, we don't have much in trade value, I'm just raking the lawn for alternatives.

The ironing in it all is that if we want someone who will stand up for JG, the best UFA right now at RW is likely Iginla...and we are the worst possible fit for him. Pretty sure he doesn't want another kick at, "I can't leave my house without being recognized".

In Canada, we make rock stars out of great hockey players. I wish we would understand, what we're doing is making them prisoners.

What's wrong with Cdn markets? boarding. Give them a normal life, not harassed constantly.

I met Burke his first year here and he was totally ducking.

All I said to him was, "hey, thanks for coming here". No selfies, no harassment, totally took the edge off. Cdns, stop harassing hockey people, it wears thin. Iginla wanted to leave and him and his family have never been happier.

Don't harass them, they WILL prefer US markets.

Excellent point. In even the most hockey crazed cities in the US maybe 20% of the people will even recognize a hockey player & with other pros like those in the MBA, NFL or NBA sighting in the areas these young millionaires actually go are more common. Add actors, recording artists & they look but don't hassle them.

In Canada people are so celebrity starved by comparison they feel they have a right to talk to the 1 they saw in the paper (& ours do publish every famous name/face that comes to town) so normally somewhat self depreciating Canadians feel a need to either laud or give them heck. Afterall. they spent money to watch them entertain.

Athletes. actors & musicians do like attention more than most but that is when on the job rather than when trying to have a meal.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

What's "our price" & what is the offer from a team like Carolina where Ron Francis is already being pro-active?

I remember you seem to think we'll get him for something like 5.5 x 3 because he's such a nice guy & thinks Calgary will appreciate him.

I'll turn off the sarcasm now but if the Canes offer this 30 year old money more = to the $s a Gaudreau, Monahan, Scheifele, etc. got like $6+ for say 4-5 years he's likely to take it. Before you say it'll give him a better chance @ the SC remember he's on the star studded Caps now.

Carolina looks to be an up & coming team with youngish vets @ forward & D backed by a very good bunch of even younger NHLers. With adding Darling they have @ least 1 goalie better than what they (& the Flames) had last year.

 

You don't get quality UFAs for bargain prices nor does standing pat just shuffling the deck chairs make a better team. Basing things on what you hope as far as players traded is for pretend but if you don't like a contract vs performance GMs notice that & have a whole staff to confirm it. Buyouts are a fool's game under a cap as it's usually  more expensive than retaining salary on the 2 allowed (yes, there is a limit same as the # of retained salary transactions).

 

We saw years wasted as we tried to build a top line around Iggy (some still complain) so do we really repeat it building a line around Gaudreau rather than trading him for parts that work with what we have in stock? You hopefully know what they say about repeating the same mistake.

 

Just in case you forgot the possibles mentioned on this board are opinions only & not attacks on you.

I don't consider you as an attacker at all. I would like to see where this goes for a few more years with these young players and trying to get the "right" RWer for the top line is hardly building a line around Gaudreau, more like finishing it off with the right option. We don't absolutely need Oshie and someone likely will throw stupid money at him but all I see is a RW worth somewhere between 4.5 and 5.5M.