cross16 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 From start to finish that was the most dominant performance I think the Flames have had all year. Even when they were down 2-1 I really never thought they were going to lose, they were good from start to finish. 1 mistake on the 3-1 and I really don't think they made another one. Really impressive performance. I agree though, the NHL needs to tweak the offside rule. I think in both cases the right call was made, according to current rules, and while i generally like the idea of getting calls right I think the spirit of this rule is getting off track. I understand it when a missed offside call leads directly to a goal, but when its marginally offside and you can still cycle it for over a minute i'm not sure waiving that off is in the best interest of the game. Especially with scoring down as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, cross16 said: From start to finish that was the most dominant performance I think the Flames have had all year. Even when they were down 2-1 I really never thought they were going to lose, they were good from start to finish. 1 mistake on the 3-1 and I really don't think they made another one. Really impressive performance. I agree though, the NHL needs to tweak the offside rule. I think in both cases the right call was made, according to current rules, and while i generally like the idea of getting calls right I think the spirit of this rule is getting off track. I understand it when a missed offside call leads directly to a goal, but when its marginally offside and you can still cycle it for over a minute i'm not sure waiving that off is in the best interest of the game. Especially with scoring down as it is. Maybe they should just take the offside calls away from the challenge and make teams live with the linesman's calls. (It used to be a non-reviewable call.) I don't think we will see this happen. The NHL has gone to the trouble to install the new cameras on the line. This tells me the direction of the thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: Maybe they should just take the offside calls away from the challenge and make teams live with the linesman's calls. (It used to be a non-reviewable call.) I don't think we will see this happen. The NHL has gone to the trouble to install the new cameras on the line. This tells me the direction of the thinking. Personally, I like getting calls right so if technology allows you to do that I think you should do it. I always cringe when you think that a Stanley cup could be awarded on a goal that is offside but that the linesman just missed. I like the idea of embracing technology to try and ensure you get calls right but I think you have to adjust the application of the rule to make sure to keep with the spirit of what the rule is trying to prevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, cross16 said: Personally, I like getting calls right so if technology allows you to do that I think you should do it. I always cringe when you think that a Stanley cup could be awarded on a goal that is offside but that the linesman just missed. I like the idea of embracing technology to try and ensure you get calls right but I think you have to adjust the application of the rule to make sure to keep with the spirit of what the rule is trying to prevent. Or won by a team leaving their Hull in the other team's crease when that call was made all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, robrob74 said: Or won by a team leaving their Hull in the other team's crease when that call was made all year. Exactly. If you can put checks and balances in place to get the call right I believe you should do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, cross16 said: Personally, I like getting calls right so if technology allows you to do that I think you should do it. I always cringe when you think that a Stanley cup could be awarded on a goal that is offside but that the linesman just missed. I like the idea of embracing technology to try and ensure you get calls right but I think you have to adjust the application of the rule to make sure to keep with the spirit of what the rule is trying to prevent. The problem is always the call on the ice. You call it in error, and it's just a bl;own call; no harm to the scoreboard. You don't call it and the evidence has to be conclusive. How is the 2nd view of the original officials on an I-pad conclusive anyway. I think that a few simple changes to the system should be employed. 1) Only allow one challenge. You get it right, you can still use a time out later. 2) Tie the off-side challenge to being on the most recent zone entry. The puck comes out any time before the whisle, then you can't challenge it. 3) Move all reviews for these challenges to the War Room. The "getting it right" part is subjective. It will always depend on the original call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, cross16 said: Personally, I like getting calls right so if technology allows you to do that I think you should do it. I always cringe when you think that a Stanley cup could be awarded on a goal that is offside but that the linesman just missed. I like the idea of embracing technology to try and ensure you get calls right but I think you have to adjust the application of the rule to make sure to keep with the spirit of what the rule is trying to prevent. yes, but you can't stop the play while ongoing just to check to see if it was offside or not. You have no choice to let the play go until there is a stoppage. Obviously everyone would prefer to get it right but you simply can't weed out all of the human error or incorrect calls without without changing the spirit of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 16 minutes ago, travel_dude said: The problem is always the call on the ice. You call it in error, and it's just a bl;own call; no harm to the scoreboard. You don't call it and the evidence has to be conclusive. How is the 2nd view of the original officials on an I-pad conclusive anyway. I think that a few simple changes to the system should be employed. 1) Only allow one challenge. You get it right, you can still use a time out later. 2) Tie the off-side challenge to being on the most recent zone entry. The puck comes out any time before the whisle, then you can't challenge it. 3) Move all reviews for these challenges to the War Room. The "getting it right" part is subjective. It will always depend on the original call. But wasn't that first offside the most recent zone entry? Only it was about a minute later. What's the point of having officials if they being overturned by review. What calls that shoukdnt be made that cause a PP that can change the outcome of a game? anyway, I feel like a team, in the first case last night, had a chance to clear the puck. The time lapse was significant enough to allow it. I think if the other team gets possession of the puck or the sustained pressure was long enough, then the goal should be allowed. But on a breakin when it's an odd man rush, and it leads to a goal and an offside was missed, call it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, robrob74 said: But wasn't that first offside the most recent zone entry? Only it was about a minute later. What's the point of having officials if they being overturned by review. What calls that shoukdnt be made that cause a PP that can change the outcome of a game? anyway, I feel like a team, in the first case last night, had a chance to clear the puck. The time lapse was significant enough to allow it. I think if the other team gets possession of the puck or the sustained pressure was long enough, then the goal should be allowed. But on a breakin when it's an odd man rush, and it leads to a goal and an offside was missed, call it back. It is not realistic to expect that calls are going to be 100% accurate. Officials are humans and humans make errors. I don't think the goal of achieving 100% accuracy on calls, in any sport, is a realistic goal. I'm not going to get into this debate, but my personal opinion is that I would say officials are right at least 70-75% of the time. If technology can close to the gap and get the call right 80-90% I think you should do that so long as it doesn't damage the game. I agree thought to me it's as simple as tweaking the rule. If the goal is a direct result of the offside then challenge it and review it. If the offside if followed by sufficient zone time where the defending team had a chance to get the puck out, then it's not review able. I don't think that is a difficult change to make. No difference that they changed the rule so a player with the puck can be considered onside so long as he keeps control of the puck, even if he appears to be offside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, cross16 said: It is not realistic to expect that calls are going to be 100% accurate. Officials are humans and humans make errors. I don't think the goal of achieving 100% accuracy on calls, in any sport, is a realistic goal. I'm not going to get into this debate, but my personal opinion is that I would say officials are right at least 70-75% of the time. If technology can close to the gap and get the call right 80-90% I think you should do that so long as it doesn't damage the game. I agree thought to me it's as simple as tweaking the rule. If the goal is a direct result of the offside then challenge it and review it. If the offside if followed by sufficient zone time where the defending team had a chance to get the puck out, then it's not review able. I don't think that is a difficult change to make. No difference that they changed the rule so a player with the puck can be considered onside so long as he keeps control of the puck, even if he appears to be offside. To the bolded only. Define sufficient time. Its too loose, doesn’t work. ________________ The only tweaking they could do is to allow the skate to be in the air rather than on the ice, but now you are drawing imaginary lines from the ice surface up, allowing for inaccuracies. The present rule gets us as close to perfection as possible. Everyone involved wants the right call. If both those off-sides were against FLO, nobody here is talking about this today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, CheersMan said: To the bolded only. Define sufficient time. Its too loose, doesn’t work. That is the NHL's job to define. I wasn't suggesting that be the exact wording of the rule but that's the "spirit" I believe the NHL should follow. It's not just last night that is the issue. This has become a real issue in the playoffs where coaches are challenging any offside that looks close and leads to a go ahead goal and calls are being reversed when players were barely offside and the offside didn't directly result in a goal. This isn't an issue that only popped up last night. I am pretty sure that in his column Elliott Friedman mentioned that GMs are starting to get frustrated by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 42 minutes ago, robrob74 said: But wasn't that first offside the most recent zone entry? Only it was about a minute later. What's the point of having officials if they being overturned by review. What calls that shoukdnt be made that cause a PP that can change the outcome of a game? anyway, I feel like a team, in the first case last night, had a chance to clear the puck. The time lapse was significant enough to allow it. I think if the other team gets possession of the puck or the sustained pressure was long enough, then the goal should be allowed. But on a breakin when it's an odd man rush, and it leads to a goal and an offside was missed, call it back. I wasn't specifically mentioning the goals we scored, as they both would be within the zone one time. The challenge for offsides was due to the Duchene missed call years back. We don't get misses like that anymore. I would just prefer that the challenge not be extended anymore to off-sides. If it is as blatant as the Duchene goal, then leave it to the War Room to make the call to the rink. Otherwise, the call on the ice stands. A mistake made by the on-ice official that prevents a goal from "reasonably being scored" by blowing the play dead has no recourse. Considering that the can't even seem to be consistent in the standards to goaltender interference in reviews, why not just do away with the challenge entirely. Let the War room make the call. They review every scoring play anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 33 minutes ago, CheersMan said: The only tweaking they could do is to allow the skate to be in the air rather than on the ice, but now you are drawing imaginary lines from the ice surface up, allowing for inaccuracies. Inaccuracies already happen, quite often, it's pretty difficult to tell if a skate blade is a centimeter off the ice... The ball must cross the goal line in the NFL for a touchdown known as "breaking the plane" and the goal line is considered to be a metaphorical wall... It has been that way for a long time and it works... The blue line could be defined much the same way and be more in line with the spirit of the rule... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 It is never easy when the game is fast and the refs/linesmen are human. Mistakes will be made. If you are trying to improve the inaccuracies with things like cameras, then it does not make sense to then give the officials a discretionary amount time to make a call or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 On Bouma's goal I wondered, as it was so close, where his foot had to be? I guess the puck didn't cross the paint by the time his did. Although the puck and his boot were touching the paint at the same time for just a bit. It was that close. There are so many close ones like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, robrob74 said: On Bouma's goal I wondered, as it was so close, where his foot had to be? I guess the puck didn't cross the paint by the time his did. Although the puck and his boot were touching the paint at the same time for just a bit. It was that close. There are so many close ones like that. IIRC, your back skate has to be behind the line and not in the air. Pretty hard to skate with both feet on the ice if you are doing anything other than gliding. The dumb thing is you call it offside and there is no issue and no recourse if wrong. You don't and it results in a goal, you can challenge it. You can only challenge it if you still have a timeout. Intelligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Intelligent. Surely you can't be referring to the refs union and/or Bettman?.. One thing that bothers me is when something happens like Yandle hacking Gaudreau to the ice twice with no penalty (happens to other skilled players across the league all too often as well), it has more of an affect on a scoring chance than going back to a minute centimeter of difference on an offside call that occurred well before a puck ending up in the net... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketdoctor Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I hate the time you have to put in a challenge. That I think should be limited to say 15-20 secs after a goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Given the events of the Flames/Panthers game on 17-Jan-17 (2 goals called back on coach's-challenge, video-reviewed offside calls), there has been a huge conversation about video review in general (not just on these forums). I have moved the conversation about this topic out of the GDT, and into this one. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 2 hours ago, travel_dude said: IIRC, your back skate has to be behind the line and not in the air. Pretty hard to skate with both feet on the ice if you are doing anything other than gliding. The dumb thing is you call it offside and there is no issue and no recourse if wrong. You don't and it results in a goal, you can challenge it. You can only challenge it if you still have a timeout. Intelligent. I think they should hire another ref/linesmen/official to review these calls in the scorers table To review it. They can also use them to do video review like Toronto does. Then there would be no bias, hopefully. Refs are not supposed to be bias, but there is definitely a bias because they are human. Players say things, coaches say things and they're not supposed to effect a game, but I think they do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Watched the Oilers play the OT last night. McDavid got a breakaway with seconds left in the frame. he deked and lifted the puck to the glove side even though the goalie stopped the puck in his glove, the ref called it a goal on the ice he ruled his glove crossed the line they went to review, but there was nothing conclusive to show where the puck was in relation to the goal line it was ruled to be a good goal These calls always depend on the initial call. There was no conclusive evidence either way. SN said you could see the puck through the webbing, but that is not possible. You can see a dark shape and logically conclude that it was the puck, but that is it. That is not considered conclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm all for getting the call right no matter how long it takes to review it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 What if there wasn't any offside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbertaBoy12 Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 7 hours ago, jjgallow said: What if there wasn't any offside? Is this a serious statement? or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 9 hours ago, jjgallow said: What if there wasn't any offside? They did away with the two line offside as a way to reward sleepers. Speeds the game up. More goals. I don't have a problem with humans making calls based on what they see. They will always be points of view, but I would rather they call a clean entry offside than go to this BS of giving every coach the chance to challenge every goal. Some teams have been given 3 minutes to decide if they want to challenge it. It's like getting a free TO to decide if you use a TO. IMHO, you should have to make the decision to go ahead or challenge right away. No 30 second delay. Play stands or you challenge it. You want to improve the game? Hold refs accountable for their calls. Give them the standard of quality and have their bosses hold them to it. You blow calls too often, you don't get playoff games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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