The Rebuild over?

[rickross]

I still think they're missing a core RW and goalie...those are still important pieces. I don't think we can say we're done, especially without a clear #1 tender. Elliot has been great but who knows what happens this offseason. Retool, rebuild...whatever. Are the Flames done? No.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, rickross said:

I still think they're missing a core RW and goalie...those are still important pieces. I don't think we can say we're done, especially without a clear #1 tender. Elliot has been great but who knows what happens this offseason. Retool, rebuild...whatever. Are the Flames done? No.

Why do you persist in going back and using the term rebuild ? Yes we need to address getting a goalie or two in place but that does not constitute rebuilding the entire team. I would have no problem with resigning both Elliott and Johnson, both are quality goaltenders. A core RW is sometimes an idealic desire that never comes  and a player such as Ferland provides the same results. It all becomes the picture you have in your head.

[rickross]

4 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Why do you persist in going back and using the term rebuild ? Yes we need to address getting a goalie or two in place but that does not constitute rebuilding the entire team. I would have no problem with resigning both Elliott and Johnson, both are quality goaltenders. A core RW is sometimes an idealic desire that never comes  and a player such as Ferland provides the same results. It all becomes the picture you have in your head.

Well the title of this thread is "The REBUILD Over?" is it not? Is it illegal to say "rebuild" on here now?  Who cares? Ppl getting so butt hurt over retool vs rebuild. Don't know how u ignore the fact that we completely rebui..err, overhauled our entire coaching staff this year, same thing with our goalies. Those weren't minor retooling moves those were major overhauls. You could argue the Flames have "rebuilt" their entire philosophy and play style under the new coaches. It was a major change that took the team nearly half the season to adjust to. They moved the Heat to Stockton, California, that's not a minor decision...that's a complete rethink of your player developmental program. 

[MAC331]

20 minutes ago, rickross said:

Well the title of this thread is "The REBUILD Over?" is it not? Is it illegal to say "rebuild" on here now?  Who cares? Ppl getting so butt hurt over retool vs rebuild. Don't know how u ignore the fact that we completely rebui..err, overhauled our entire coaching staff this year, same thing with our goalies. Those weren't minor retooling moves those were major overhauls. You could argue the Flames have "rebuilt" their entire philosophy and play style under the new coaches. It was a major change that took the team nearly half the season to adjust to. They moved the Heat to Stockton, California, that's not a minor decision...that's a complete rethink of your player developmental program. 

Now you are venturing into other areas of the organizations ? WOW

Let's keep the conversation to the team. We have over the last 4 years established a new core with the exception of a young core goalie. I don't think that was without trying with Ramo and or Ortio not working out. I thought and still do that Elliott and Johnson were great choices by BT to solidify our goaltending situation. I think BT needs to continue supporting the core group through the maturing phase so we do become consistent contenders. This to me is retooling as required hopefully with players that are better fits or worthy graduating prospects.

[rickross]

23 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Now you are venturing into other areas of the organizations ? WOW

Let's keep the conversation to the team. We have over the last 4 years established a new core with the exception of a young core goalie. I don't think that was without trying with Ramo and or Ortio not working out. I thought and still do that Elliott and Johnson were great choices by BT to solidify our goaltending situation. I think BT needs to continue supporting the core group through the maturing phase so we do become consistent contenders. This to me is retooling as required hopefully with players that are better fits or worthy graduating prospects.

Get the Holy water out! I mentioned other parts of the organization! Pure blasphem! I guess you don't consider our prospects as part of our rebuild. The fact that guys like Janko, Klimchuk and Rasmus could be part of this teams core as soon as next year is irrelevant to u. Come off it already. Do yourself a favour and start the "retool only" thread

[AlbertaBoy12]

5 minutes ago, rickross said:

Get the Holy water out! I mentioned other parts of the organization! Pure blasphem! I guess you don't consider our prospects as part of our rebuild. The fact that guys like Janko, Klimchuk and Rasmus could be part of this teams core as soon as next year is irrelevant to u. Come off it already. Do yourself a favour and start the "retool only" thread

The question of the thread is the rebuild over? Instead of arguing the semantics of the word, why not bring up the fact that you obviously dont think its over, others do think its over. I dont think the orginization moving the farm team to stockton has anything to do with rebuilding, and considering this is their second season there I dont think that is very relevant to this year. if you want to consider the change of coaching staff or prospects joining the team, then you need to only look at any of the big rebuilders throughout the league that have done well the past ten years. Flames nation did some articles on it, ive linked them below

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/05/22/the-big-gainers-part-1-chicago-blackhawks/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/05/25/the-bg-gainers-part-2-new-york-islanders/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/06/01/the-big-gainers-part-3-los-angeles-kings/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/06/11/the-big-gainers-part-4-st-louis-blues/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/07/21/big-gainers-part-5-calgary-flames/

 

Now the important takeaway from this is no rebuild is exaclty the same, but eventually you come out of the rebuild phase usually by making a coaching change, ie where we are now, and move into becoming a contender with some more minor moves once your core is established. Obviously that has not worked out great for the islanders or the blues, but the point is eventually the rebuild is over once your core is established, and for the record the blues have changed goalies many times.

[rickross]

6 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

The question of the thread is the rebuild over? Instead of arguing the semantics of the word, why not bring up the fact that you obviously dont think its over, others do think its over. I dont think the orginization moving the farm team to stockton has anything to do with rebuilding, and considering this is their second season there I dont think that is very relevant to this year. if you want to consider the change of coaching staff or prospects joining the team, then you need to only look at any of the big rebuilders throughout the league that have done well the past ten years. Flames nation did some articles on it, ive linked them below

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/05/22/the-big-gainers-part-1-chicago-blackhawks/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/05/25/the-bg-gainers-part-2-new-york-islanders/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/06/01/the-big-gainers-part-3-los-angeles-kings/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/06/11/the-big-gainers-part-4-st-louis-blues/

https://flamesnation.ca/2015/07/21/big-gainers-part-5-calgary-flames/

 

Now the important takeaway from this is no rebuild is exaclty the same, but eventually you come out of the rebuild phase usually by making a coaching change, ie where we are now, and move into becoming a contender with some more minor moves once your core is established. Obviously that has not worked out great for the islanders or the blues, but the point is eventually the rebuild is over once your core is established, and for the record the blues have changed goalies many times.

The thing is I've already stated my position that the rebuild is not over. If u look at my posts I agreed the Flames have instilled a core group and are no longer trading away prime assets. That part is over, however this team and organization has gone thru a major overhaul in every facet. Whether it's coaches, players, executives or trainers and analytics, they've all seen a major overhaul. I'm not just looking at the rebuild from our starting roster's perspective. I never brought up the semantics behind rebuild vs retool, both are happening at the same time. All of a sudden ppl are upset because I used the term rebuild and mentioned other parts of the organization? Why be so short sighted? New coaches were brought in to steer this core throughout the rebuild, it's a major change in philosophy and progressive thinking. That's not a minor retool IMO, it's a fundamental shift in the identity of this team. It's obvious rebuild is a relative term, for example I don't believe your core is complete without the most important position,being a starting goalie. We've made progress but I don't think we are done. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

15 minutes ago, rickross said:

The thing is I've already stated my position that the rebuild is not over. If u look at my posts I agreed the Flames have instilled a core group and are no longer trading away prime assets. That part is over, however this team and organization has gone thru a major overhaul in every facet. Whether it's coaches, players, executives or trainers and analytics, they've all seen a major overhaul. I'm not just looking at the rebuild from our starting roster's perspective. I never brought up the semantics behind rebuild vs retool, both are happening at the same time. All of a sudden ppl are upset because I used the term rebuild and mentioned other parts of the organization? Why be so short sighted? New coaches were brought in to steer this core throughout the rebuild, it's a major change in philosophy and progressive thinking. That's not a minor retool IMO, it's a fundamental shift in the identity of this team. It's obvious rebuild is a relative term, for example I don't believe your core is complete without the most important position,being a starting goalie. We've made progress but I don't think we are done. 

I think the reason youre seeing that is because generally rebuild is a huge turn over in terms of what is on your roster, we have gone through many drafts and have replaced our core players at every position and at this point should be set at every position for years to come except for maybe RW. I dont think you can say we havent found a start goalie yet for our core, as goalies take years to develop so we might not have a core starting goalie for years. But at this point elliot is proving himself to be a very solid goalie and while he may not be a core piece like gaudreau hes very important to team success. Usually a new coach who leads the team in a new direction such as GG signals the end of the rebuild and the start of the the road to being a bonafide contender, thats why the word retool might be a bit more appropiate.

 

Im not saying you were arguing the semantics, im just saying the terminology of where we are as an orginization is probably past the rebuilding phase and thats why people are up in arms about the use of the term. I dont think if you asked BT if we were rebuilders he would say yes at this point. 

 

They have gone an overhaul but alot of that overhaul took place before this season and the only big change for this season was a change of coaching staff, which like I said in my opinion usually ends a rebuild and moves into a different phase.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

The question of the thread is the rebuild over? Instead of arguing the semantics of the word, why not bring up the fact that you obviously dont think its over, others do think its over. 

 

Actually, semantics is the only thing we are arguing here.

 

We all agree the Flames are still adding pieces, improving, etc.  I think everyone would agree, even the Blackhawks and Penguins are doing the same every season.  We all know where the Flames are and where we need to be to get to the next level.

 

What we disagree about is the proper word to describe this phase of a team's evolution.

[rickross]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Actually, semantics is the only thing we are arguing here.

 

We all agree the Flames are still adding pieces, improving, etc.  I think everyone would agree, even the Blackhawks and Penguins are doing the same every season.  We all know where the Flames are and where we need to be to get to the next level.

 

What we disagree about is the proper word to describe this phase of a team's evolution.

Agreed! Personally I think both terms apply in this case

[The_People1]

6 minutes ago, rickross said:

Agreed! Personally I think both terms apply in this case

 

It depends on the end goal of the build.  Right? 

 

If the Blackhawks started their rebuild 10 years ago to build a 5-peat dynasty, then they are not done rebuilding yet.  They are merely in mid-build.

 

If they set out to establish a new core, then they were done after 3 years of tanking.

 

If they were intending to build a true contender, then they were done the year before they won their first Cup.

 

So to make a statement that rebuilds "never end" is too say you are building to an infinite level of dominance and intend to win the remaining Cups for the rest of eternity.  Which is fine if that's your own definition of "rebuilding".  Just understand that the general majority of people don't uses that word for that meaning.

[MAC331]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

It depends on the end goal of the build.  Right? 

 

If the Blackhawks started their rebuild 10 years ago to build a 5-peat dynasty, then they are not done rebuilding yet.  They are merely in mid-build.

 

If they set out to establish a new core, then they were done after 3 years of tanking.

 

If they were intending to build a true contender, then they were done the year before they won their first Cup.

 

So to make a statement that rebuilds "never end" is too say you are building to an infinite level of dominance and intend to win the remaining Cups for the rest of eternity.  Which is fine if that's your own definition of "rebuilding".  Just understand that the general majority of people don't uses that word for that meaning.

This discussion could go on forever, in most sport circles a rebuild is when the decision is made to move away from one core group of players to another. The Flames made that decision with the trading of Iginla and the supporting cast then. We now have a new core in place that needs to mature into a consistent challenger every season. There will always be some changes to address certain needs ongoing.

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Actually, semantics is the only thing we are arguing here.

 

We all agree the Flames are still adding pieces, improving, etc.  I think everyone would agree, even the Blackhawks and Penguins are doing the same every season.  We all know where the Flames are and where we need to be to get to the next level.

 

What we disagree about is the proper word to describe this phase of a team's evolution.

You are right. 

 

54 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

This discussion could go on forever, in most sport circles a rebuild is when the decision is made to move away from one core group of players to another. The Flames made that decision with the trading of Iginla and the supporting cast then. We now have a new core in place that needs to mature into a consistent challenger every season. There will always be some changes to address certain needs ongoing.

I agree with you completely I think rebuilding is complete. At this point I dont think retooling or anything like that is the right word. We are simply a team on the rise gaining experience, and filling roles for the supporting cast as needed.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

You are right. 

 

I agree with you completely I think rebuilding is complete. At this point I dont think retooling or anything like that is the right word. We are simply a team on the rise gaining experience, and filling roles for the supporting cast as needed.

There is always hangovers from previous regimes to work out of during a rebuild period and hopefully if our GM is good he is getting better replacements. An example of this would be Wideman or to a lesser extent Stajan. Due to improved drafting positions over the past 4 years we have some quality building in the pipeline to replace such players as Wideman, Stajan, Bouma and others as they age.

[TheBurn]

Another part of our rebuild is gauging our leadership. Monohan has become our assistant captain but we are still relying on Captain Gio and assistant Troy Brouwer to wear the other patches. I know someone is gonna just troll and say well let's just give it to Gaudreau and Tkachuk and call the rebuild over but it is the DNA of the team. The leadership has not passed hands yet and that is important to gauge a rebuild (not everything but one aspect). 

[robrob74]

I feel we have a decent core who needs a bit more development but let's see how it goes. BThas done well to fill holes, but is not quite there yet.

 

Boy is  Tkachuk gonna be a good one. The Canucks are stupid for not taking him. Juolevi will be good, but Tkachuk has the potential to be the thorn in a lot of teams back.

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, TheBurn said:

Another part of our rebuild is gauging our leadership. Monohan has become our assistant captain but we are still relying on Captain Gio and assistant Troy Brouwer to wear the other patches. I know someone is gonna just troll and say well let's just give it to Gaudreau and Tkachuk and call the rebuild over but it is the DNA of the team. The leadership has not passed hands yet and that is important to gauge a rebuild (not everything but one aspect). 

 

Thats not how it works, Monahan has a few years. What if Tkachuk surpasses him in leadership? I can see him being a good one. He's a take no BS kind of guy with high expectations. A little like a Dustin Brown?

[AlbertaBoy12]

39 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Thats not how it works, Monahan has a few years. What if Tkachuk surpasses him in leadership? I can see him being a good one. He's a take no BS kind of guy with high expectations. A little like a Dustin Brown?

I would compare him more to a younger corey perry in alot of ways then a dustin brown. But I dont think your comparsion is too far off base.

[conundrumed]

Monahan is easily the next choice for C, imho.

Call it, "most composed", is what it is.

Captains behave like Captains throughout the league, Mony has that quality imho.

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Monahan is easily the next choice for C, imho.

Call it, "most composed", is what it is.

Captains behave like Captains throughout the league, Mony has that quality imho.

 

I get that too. 

 

I guess i just just feel like he's nice. Too good? Not demanding enough?

[The_People1]

52 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Monahan is easily the next choice for C, imho.

Call it, "most composed", is what it is.

Captains behave like Captains throughout the league, Mony has that quality imho.

 

26 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I get that too. 

 

I guess i just just feel like he's nice. Too good? Not demanding enough?

 

I agree with rob.  Based on Monahan's twitter account and general mannerism, he seems like too much of a joker.  Too nice.  Just one of the boys rather than a man among boys.  Not "captain serious" enough.  To me, he also lacks the "i'm going to carry us on my shoulder" attitude.  He was also suspended for being late to practice last season.

 

Defacto next captain based on goals scored, sure but it's not an easy choice based on ideals.  More like we don't have a better choice or that a better choice hasn't emerged yet.  Maybe the next captain should be Tkachuk?  But time will tell because he has some maturing to do.  Maybe Curtis Lazar emerges as a key player in the next few years and becomes a vocal guy in the mold of Craig Conroy and could captain?  Maybe Sam Bennett returns strong from a sophomore slump to dominate and becomes the Flames best player?  Maybe Johnny should be captain?  So many things can happen between now and when Giordano retires.  I don't think Monahan as captain is that straight forward.

[travel_dude]

We don't really know what Monahan is like in the room.  He's not going to talk over Gio.  But he was made the A for some reason.  

Hamilton is the real joker on the team.  

[robrob74]

The more I see of Tkachuk, I just see a guy who will do what it takes to win, and that's also not having to be captain. He will play his way, and do what it takes. I have been more and more impressed as the season goes on. 

 

I am not saying Monahan isn't up for it. I am just saying, it could depend on what things are like in a few years. Monahan seems to be getting groomed for it. 

 

I guess I have a bias because Monahan has been the poster boy since day1. I feel like his preferential treatment was over and beyond any of other rookies got, aside from Gaudreau. But Gaudreau was older. And you're right, I don't see what is going on behind the scenes. To me, Monahan I feel like he gets a huge pass all of the time, like he "can do no wrong."  

[MAC331]

8 hours ago, robrob74 said:

The more I see of Tkachuk, I just see a guy who will do what it takes to win, and that's also not having to be captain. He will play his way, and do what it takes. I have been more and more impressed as the season goes on. 

 

I am not saying Monahan isn't up for it. I am just saying, it could depend on what things are like in a few years. Monahan seems to be getting groomed for it. 

 

I guess I have a bias because Monahan has been the poster boy since day1. I feel like his preferential treatment was over and beyond any of other rookies got, aside from Gaudreau. But Gaudreau was older. And you're right, I don't see what is going on behind the scenes. To me, Monahan I feel like he gets a huge pass all of the time, like he "can do no wrong."  

Really guys ? getting way ahead of ourselves here. We have a Captain and a very good one in Giordano, let this young core concentrate on becoming good professional players first. The positive is we have a number of players that could emerge to take over as Giordano moves out.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Really guys ? getting way ahead of ourselves here. We have a Captain and a very good one in Giordano, let this young core concentrate on becoming good professional players first. The positive is we have a number of players that could emerge to take over as Giordano moves out.

 

Exactly!

 

it is why I am saying it could even be Tkachuk. 

 

I dont think Gio gets rid of it for at least 3 years.