What Is Best For Matthew Tkachuk

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

From what I've read Rantanen wants the $s being mentioned on a 3 year deal.

Kinda makes sense why he isn't being offer sheeted, of all the rfa's, he'd be the first guy I'd offer sheet. But it would be $11 over 7 for sure.

Looking back a few short yrs ago at Mony, Gaudreau, MacKinnon, Scheifele and what those guys signed for, this thing has ballooned into no man's land.

Marner isn't an $11mil player, it's ridiculous.

Tkachuk isn't near as skilled as Rantanen or Marner, hence he plays a gritty agitator game. Why the $$ would be in that realm is beyond me.

What really annoys me in all of this, is Eric Francis *spit* guessed, of all the RFA's this summer, Tkachuk would most likely be the one that misses the start of the season.

He's starting to look accurate, and god knows that won't go to his head. *rolleyes*

 

 

Cap is not an issue for them.

The problem is paying Rantanen what he is looking for, since it puts him about 4m move than MacKinnon.

That's not right and wouldn;t get fixed until the end of his 2nd contract.

 

Nylander set the bar for lessser players last year.

Kucherov making 9.5m, which is fair for that kind of production and a 3rd contract.

Marner's is a joke.

 

Unfortunately for us, BT was unable to clear cap, knowing full well what salaries were going to look like.

At this point, the Neal trade looks like a death blow.

We would have been better off eating 2m of salary and trading him for a prospect and pick.

Not that Lucic is a waste, just a huge cap for a marginal 3rd/4th line player. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Cap is not an issue for them.

The problem is paying Rantanen what he is looking for, since it puts him about 4m move than MacKinnon.

That's not right and wouldn;t get fixed until the end of his 2nd contract.

 

Nylander set the bar for lessser players last year.

Kucherov making 9.5m, which is fair for that kind of production and a 3rd contract.

Marner's is a joke.

 

Unfortunately for us, BT was unable to clear cap, knowing full well what salaries were going to look like.

At this point, the Neal trade looks like a death blow.

We would have been better off eating 2m of salary and trading him for a prospect and pick.

Not that Lucic is a waste, just a huge cap for a marginal 3rd/4th line player. 

 

I dunno if the Neal trade is the death blow as much as the Neal UFA signing. 

 

To pay him and yet knowing that the team was going to be up against the current cap was a horrible gamble to make. Then having to buyout Stone. The Neal trade supposedly save us cap of 500k. 

 

I think a lot of posters on here have it right with the Stone re-signing. Others could’ve done the same.... and it speaks to the historical view of not believing in what we have. Stone isn’t better or that much better for that matter. 

 

It’s  beginning to be quite the debacle. 

 

Maybe signing Talbot was a bad choice too. I suppose that’s about 1.5m more that it costs than it would to go with a rook. But then again, how’d he know Zags would do this well (so far)?

[kehatch]

There is no deathblow. The Flames have one bad contract. Meanwhile all of our best players are on budget contracts. We also have kids like Dube, Andersson, Valimaki, Quine, etc ready to take on a role on a league minimum deal. The Flames are in a great cap situation. This season is just a bit tight. 

[jefsmi]

Personal opinion is Flames and Tkachuk have a deal. They keep saying it’s status quo, the player is in Canada playing hockey. I agree that Trev is a bit behind on sorting this out cap wise but it’s clear they want to see what they have and what they can part with during training camp before they rush  a dman out and hurt the team. We also see teams like Habs, Jets, Sens have issues with injuries and such to their dmen which is only increasing the value of our trade assets if a dman is who we are trading. I think (hope) something will be done by early next week so Matty can get the last week of training camp in.

[cross16]

I think Treliving knows how he’s going to clear cap. He speaks very confidently about that when it comes up in interviews and he usually doesn’t paint himself into a corner. I’m pretty confident he knows. 

 

I think the issue is, and why he hasn’t pulled the trigger, is depending on how this goes will determine if or how much cap he needs. It doesn’t sound like the flames and Tkachuk are close on structure. There is a big difference in cap space required for bridge vs long term. That’s why I think no moves have been made to free up cap. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

There is no deathblow. The Flames have one bad contract. Meanwhile all of our best players are on budget contracts. We also have kids like Dube, Andersson, Valimaki, Quine, etc ready to take on a role on a league minimum deal. The Flames are in a great cap situation. This season is just a bit tight. 

 

 

Thats not really true. What’s really holding it back or not fitting him under the cap are the buyouts that are still on the cap plus the one bad contract.

[cross16]

At the same time words like “death blow” and “debacle” are overly dramatic. 

 

Flames are going to get tkachuk signed and once they do they’ll be in great cap shape moving forward. Of course mistakes have been made but every team and every GM makes them. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

There is no deathblow. The Flames have one bad contract. Meanwhile all of our best players are on budget contracts. We also have kids like Dube, Andersson, Valimaki, Quine, etc ready to take on a role on a league minimum deal. The Flames are in a great cap situation. This season is just a bit tight. 

 

If it wasn't a major impact to the cap, Tkachuk would be at camp.

It's a 5.25m impact.

Solving the Neal problem by taking on almost the exact same cap doesn;t work for me.

We didn't upgrade the C, because we didn't gain much cap space.

Any deal to move Brodie or Janko gets nixed if more cap is added,

 

As you say, it's one season.

Not the end of the world, but not a great spot to be either.

Having an extra 1-2m for the season is never a bad thing.

 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

At the same time words like “death blow” and “debacle” are pretty ridiculous to throw out there

 

Flames are going to get tkachuk signed and once they do they’ll be in great cap shape moving forward. Of course mistakes have been made but every team and every GM makes them. 

 

I think that’s letting him off easy. Every team makes them. But he’s consistently carrying buyouts on the cap. That is the debacle in my point of view. Isn’t it about 2.5 in buyout money right now? Signing Neal last year and knowing Tkachuk was up for re-signing is a huge mistake! He should’ve foreseen the cap he had left. Even then a lot of posters believed Tkachuk was going to be worth anywhere from 7.5-9 million

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If it wasn't a major impact to the cap, Tkachuk would be at camp.

It's a 5.25m impact.

Solving the Neal problem by taking on almost the exact same cap doesn;t work for me.

We didn't upgrade the C, because we didn't gain much cap space.

Any deal to move Brodie or Janko gets nixed if more cap is added,

 

As you say, it's one season.

Not the end of the world, but not a great spot to be either.

Having an extra 1-2m for the season is never a bad thing.

 

I still believe the Neal trade was probably the best that was going to happen.  The team traded a player that showed why he's on his 4th team in 4 years for someone who albeit limited expectations, wants to be here and in all honesty isn't going to be any worse.

 

No one else was going to take Neal. Better off as someone elses problem.

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think that’s letting him off easy. Every team makes them. But he’s consistently carrying buyouts on the cap. That is the debacle in my point of view. Isn’t it about 2.5 in buyout money right now? Signing Neal last year and knowing Tkachuk was up for re-signing is a huge mistake! He should’ve foreseen the cap he had left. Even then a lot of posters believed Tkachuk was going to be worth anywhere from 7.5-9 million

 

Show me a competitive team in the NHL without at least one bad contract and some dead cap space (buyout, recapture, etc). 

 

Also, the Tkachuk signing has nothing to do with cap space or the Neal signing. The GM is not going to sign Tkachuk to a contract that doesn't reflect his leverage. He didn't with Monahan or Gaudreau or any of his RFAs. We could have 20 million in cap space right now and it wouldn't impact signing Tkachuk. 

 

I have no problems criticising Treliving. I have done so many times in the past. But his cap management has been stellar, and his ability to sign his RFAs to good contracts has been stellar. The result is we have Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Giordano, Backlund, Hanafin, etc signed to team friendly contracts and are in a great situation for the next three years. 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think that’s letting him off easy. Every team makes them. But he’s consistently carrying buyouts on the cap. That is the debacle in my point of view. Isn’t it about 2.5 in buyout money right now? Signing Neal last year and knowing Tkachuk was up for re-signing is a huge mistake! He should’ve foreseen the cap he had left. Even then a lot of posters believed Tkachuk was going to be worth anywhere from 7.5-9 million

 

I can’t say for sure as I’m not involved but there is no doubt in my mind this is a negotiation issue not a cap issue. If the flames had 10 mill in cap space right now I still think Tkachuk would be unsigned. 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

If it wasn't a major impact to the cap, Tkachuk would be at camp.

It's a 5.25m impact.

Solving the Neal problem by taking on almost the exact same cap doesn;t work for me.

We didn't upgrade the C, because we didn't gain much cap space.

Any deal to move Brodie or Janko gets nixed if more cap is added,

 

As you say, it's one season.

Not the end of the world, but not a great spot to be either.

Having an extra 1-2m for the season is never a bad thing.

 

 

The Neal signing was a mistake, and I have been critical of the trade for Lucic. I think Neal has a better chance to rebound compared to Lucic. You can add the original Brower signing then buyout to the sequence of this mistake. 

 

But Tkachuk would not be here if we didn't sign Neal. The GM will make room once he knows the contract that is being signed. 

 

GMs also make mistakes. Last summer the GM added Neal, Lindholm, Hanafin, and Ryan to a team that needed to add depth. The result was we went from a team that couldn't score and missed the playoffs to one that put up almost 290 goals and was the top team in the West. So we have one bad contract and a couple of million in buyouts. We also have a contending team because of aggressive moves to complete a team built via the draft. 

[sak22]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

I can’t say for sure as I’m not involved but there is no doubt in my mind this is a negotiation issue not a cap issue. If the flames had 10 mill in cap space right now I still think Tkachuk would be unsigned. 

Agree, cap space not an issue in Colorado I'd say Rantanen is a little more vital to the Avs than Tkachuk to the Flames.  Yet there is no progress there either.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I can’t say for sure as I’m not involved but there is no doubt in my mind this is a negotiation issue not a cap issue. If the flames had 10 mill in cap space right now I still think Tkachuk would be unsigned. 

 

 

While i I agree with you there, there is still not denying that the Flames will be over the cap by  2-3 million after he is signed. I don’t think that it has anything to do with the space either. But BT has to possibly get rid of other quality players to make the team cap compliant. I don’t see it as a problem with the negotiation as much as it has turned into the body of BT’s work. 

 

Perhaps other deals were needed... 

[conundrumed]

Makes you wonder, say, Frolik gets traded to meet Tkachuk's demands. If you were Tkachuk, wouldn't you feel like a piece of excrement?

 

[JTech780]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Makes you wonder, say, Frolik gets traded to meet Tkachuk's demands. If you were Tkachuk, wouldn't you feel like a piece of excrement?

 

 

Not really, Tkachuk has to do what's best for him and his family. I am sure he would feel bad that a guy gets traded, but that isn't his fault, that's just the business of hockey. At the end of the day he has to do what's best for him, 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Makes you wonder, say, Frolik gets traded to meet Tkachuk's demands. If you were Tkachuk, wouldn't you feel like a piece of excrement?

 

 

I can't say that Tkachuk is the reason for the cap issues.

And for all we know, Tkachuk's demands may be reasonable.

Even if he wanted to sign a 8 year deal for around $7.5m (reasonable, but underpaid considering the comps), BT would be hard-pressed to sign him.

Well, he couldn't.

 

Neal was signed knowing the cap challenges.

The trade for Lucic didn't really address that.

Any demand is going to look inflated because of the value contracts on the books.

[conundrumed]

6 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Not really, Tkachuk has to do what's best for him and his family. I am sure he would feel bad that a guy gets traded, but that isn't his fault, that's just the business of hockey. At the end of the day he has to do what's best for him, 

And not care about his friends? Both Backlund and Frolik sheltered him and helped him become an NHLer. Because $7.5 isn't enough, $10mil is best for me and my fam and everyone else gets tossed under the bus.

Although I have to admit, I don't like Tkachuk as much as all of the fans that salivate over him.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I can't say that Tkachuk is the reason for the cap issues.

And for all we know, Tkachuk's demands may be reasonable.

Even if he wanted to sign a 8 year deal for around $7.5m (reasonable, but underpaid considering the comps), BT would be hard-pressed to sign him.

Well, he couldn't.

 

Neal was signed knowing the cap challenges.

The trade for Lucic didn't really address that.

Any demand is going to look inflated because of the value contracts on the books.

See, I don't understand the comps here. Underpaid? I'm going to go with overrated. Is this a guy that will steer the ship? No. He's not. He's the guy that will have a few more suspensions coming. Because if he isn't playing a reckless game, he's not being effective. If someone cares to explain to me how his skill level is near Marner, Rantanen, Point,Draisaitl, etc, I'd love to hear it. Outside of, "well, he has a different skillset", for which my reply will be, "yeah, a worse one".

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

And not care about his friends? Both Backlund and Frolik sheltered him and helped him become an NHLer. Because $7.5 isn't enough, $10mil is best for me and my fam and everyone else gets tossed under the bus.

Although I have to admit, I don't like Tkachuk as much as all of the fans that salivate over him.

 

You don't think Backlund or Frolik would go out get as much money as they possibly can. I think they already did. 

 

It's not like Frolik or whoever gets traded aren't going to get paid, they still make their millions regardless of where they play. 

 

Every player going through contract negotiations, gets pressure from their families, agents and the players association to get as much money as they can get. 

 

I also don't get the idea that players should take less to help the team. The owners of the team are out to make as much money as they possibly can off the backs of the players so why shouldn't the players go out and get as much money as they possibly can.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

See, I don't understand the comps here. Underpaid? I'm going to go with overrated. Is this a guy that will steer the ship? No. He's not. He's the guy that will have a few more suspensions coming. Because if he isn't playing a reckless game, he's not being effective. If someone cares to explain to me how his skill level is near Marner, Rantanen, Point,Draisaitl, etc, I'd love to hear it. Outside of, "well, he has a different skillset", for which my reply will be, "yeah, a worse one".

 

Kane signed last year for $7m as a 27 year old, who has never scored more than 57 points.

Meier signed a bridge deal that pays him $10m in his final year, and he's had 36 and 66 points in two seasons.

Do I think Tkachuk is worth $10m? No.

Is he worth what those two signed for?

If they deserve it, he does too.

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

You don't think Backlund or Frolik would go out get as much money as they possibly can. I think they already did. 

 

It's not like Frolik or whoever gets traded aren't going to get paid, they still make their millions regardless of where they play. 

 

Every player going through contract negotiations, gets pressure from their families, agents and the players association to get as much money as they can get. 

 

I also don't get the idea that players should take less to help the team. The owners of the team are out to make as much money as they possibly can off the backs of the players so why shouldn't the players go out and get as much money as they possibly can.

What's taking less?

Is Tkachuk a good skater?

Does he have a great shot? Is he an exceptional passer? Does he control the play? Is he good defensively?

He's being way overrated for a guy who gets sheltered and then plugged into premium PP minutes.

At the end of the day, he's a dirty grinder with finish. The hype machine is out of control. Next Captain? That'll be the day that I just go stick with Detroit.

Give me Larkin anyday, Tkachuk doesn't touch that skill level.

[The_People1]

17 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What's taking less?

Is Tkachuk a good skater?

Does he have a great shot? Is he an exceptional passer? Does he control the play? Is he good defensively?

He's being way overrated for a guy who gets sheltered and then plugged into premium PP minutes.

At the end of the day, he's a dirty grinder with finish. The hype machine is out of control. Next Captain? That'll be the day that I just go stick with Detroit.

Give me Larkin anyday, Tkachuk doesn't touch that skill level.

 

Do you think we should trade Tkachuk for Laine?

[JTech780]

18 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What's taking less?

Is Tkachuk a good skater?

Does he have a great shot? Is he an exceptional passer? Does he control the play? Is he good defensively?

He's being way overrated for a guy who gets sheltered and then plugged into premium PP minutes.

At the end of the day, he's a dirty grinder with finish. The hype machine is out of control. Next Captain? That'll be the day that I just go stick with Detroit.

Give me Larkin anyday, Tkachuk doesn't touch that skill level.

 

He isn't a great skater, I will give you that, and that is really my only concern with him 

 

He has a good shot and has very good vision and is a very good playmaker. I think he controls the play in the offensive zone as good as anyone of this team.

 

He plays against the others teams top lines and mostly gets defensive zone assignments so I am not sure how you can say he gets sheltered.

 

The only thing guys like Marner, Rantanen, or Larkin do better than Tkachuk is skate his skill level in every other category is on par. Plus he brings leadership and physical play. Their are very few guys in this league that can be point a game players and play with an edge in this league and that ability is valuable.