Transitioning to Youth

[MAC331]

Appreciate the well thought out, detailed comment.  

Your view of a Captain's role couldn't be more wrong. The Captain's role is to carry the communications in game from bench to official and back the other way. It is the coaches who should have everyone on the same page of what the head coach is trying to implement . From there he should set an example of professionalism for his team mates to follow and tune in the ones that are not on the team page. Your Captain's shouldn't be telling the coach how to run the team.

[robrob1974]

Your view of a Captain's role couldn't be more wrong. The Captain's role is to carry the communications in game from bench to official and back the other way. It is the coaches who should have everyone on the same page of what the head coach is trying to implement . From there he should set an example of professionalism for his team mates to follow and tune in the ones that are not on the team page. Your Captain's shouldn't be telling the coach how to run the team.

I agree.

Iginla is probably an anomoly in that he was given the keys to the city and arena. I believe the fact he questioned the coaches as much as he did actually hindered the team's performance.

The captains job is to speak to the refs and provide leadership among the players. In beer league they're more coach-ish and have more on ice say about how the team plays.

[travel_dude]

Your view of a Captain's role couldn't be more wrong. The Captain's role is to carry the communications in game from bench to official and back the other way. It is the coaches who should have everyone on the same page of what the head coach is trying to implement . From there he should set an example of professionalism for his team mates to follow and tune in the ones that are not on the team page. Your Captain's shouldn't be telling the coach how to run the team.

 

Do you think a coach ever said to Iggy, "Hey go out there and fight player x".  No, because Iggy determined that it would spark the team.  Or he felt it was necessary to settle something.  Or drag the team on your back because they need that example.  

 

There are many forms of leadership, but it isn't simply a ref-bench interface or blindly follow position.  

[robrob1974]

Do you think a coach ever said to Iggy, "Hey go out there and fight player x". No, because Iggy determined that it would spark the team. Or he felt it was necessary to settle something. Or drag the team on your back because they need that example.

There are many forms of leadership, but it isn't simply a ref-bench interface or blindly follow position.

I think Mac would agree with that part of your view of leadership and captaincy.

What I have a problem with is vetoing a coaches decision. That's when a coach loses the room. I think it's the captains job to always play for the coach and follow through with orders because that's leading by example.

I see Gio doing that, which makes him a great captain and a great role model.

[jjgallow]

Is it your belief that a move such as this advances our building efforts or has it take a step back for two forward later on ?

Removing a player such as Giordano has a sequence of rippling effects. You have to ask yourself if you are prepared to sacrifice the possibility of a steady progression in order to "try" and find another path towards creating a winner.

 

I see Giordano doing much like Lindstrom did for DET, providing a steady positive influence for his team mates. I think this is very valuable as you try and create a winning culture.

 

In the examples I provided, the immediate effect would be negative.   But one of the "ripples" is better draft picks.   I'm sort of with travel_dude on the quality versus quantity thing.   Ideally, you want to win the trade by getting the "most valuable" player.   

 

IMHO, that would be well-served by my Nishichkun example, but that's all prerogative.

 

I agree, it's hard to trade Gio on his own, and get a "more valuable" player in return.  Most teams well offer several Less valuable players.

 

There is a way around that, though.   And that would be packaging Gio himself.   Package Gio with a draft pick.  Or package Gio with someone like Hudler.  Then....Yes...you can definitely get the "most valuable" player out of the deal.   Quality is always better than quantity.

 

But in a rebuilding trade, you're never going to get the "best current player".   We're not going to trade Gio, or any combined package of Gio, and end up with an instantly "better" player.    The immediate impact will always be negative.    Otherwise, why would any contender do the deal with us?   We're selling them immediate performance, in exchange for long term success.

 

Such a trade, if it were to occur, would put us near completion of the rebuild, imho.   At least in terms of having the core we intended.

[travel_dude]

I think Mac would agree with that part of your view of leadership and captaincy.

What I have a problem with is vetoing a coaches decision. That's when a coach loses the room. I think it's the captains job to always play for the coach and follow through with orders because that's leading by example.

I see Gio doing that, which makes him a great captain and a great role model.

 

I don't think I ever said veto.  If the coach and Gio don't see eye to eye. it's his job to express that in a setting conducive to it.  Doing it in front of the guys is not that.  Giving the coach feedback is what keeps the room.

[MAC331]

Do you think a coach ever said to Iggy, "Hey go out there and fight player x".  No, because Iggy determined that it would spark the team.  Or he felt it was necessary to settle something.  Or drag the team on your back because they need that example.  

 

There are many forms of leadership, but it isn't simply a ref-bench interface or blindly follow position.  

Have you ever been a Captain ? I have on many sports teams and know it takes all kinds but trying to think you run the show in any way over the coach is the wrong way. Everyone wants the right results and each party plays a role. You cannot overstate the lead by example approach in a good way by your Captain.

[The_People1]

Unfortunately, I think what we really need is a solid young defenceman.  Any team that needs Gio, won't be giving up a younger version of the same thing.

 

So, I would say, the best return value would probably be something like two first round picks.  Which we could, perhaps turn around and trade elsewhere for a young defenceman.

 

 

Alternatively, a big young Right winger.  Quick example:

 

Say, the Dallas stars, who are contenders but missing a defensive presence:

 

For:  Nichushkin straight up, or Guryanov + first rounder, or Brett Ritchie + first rounder.

 

I would do,

 

To Islanders: Giordano

To Flames: Hamonic + (one of Strome/Barzal/Pulock/Dalcolle)

 

It's about age for me.  By the time the Flames hit full stride in 2 to 4 years, Giordano will be untradeable and eating up significant cap space but producing at less than ideal output.  Hamonic, on the other hand, is on a good contract, good length, and he's younger.  That, and we could get a blue chip prospect that could help us down the road.

[jjgallow]

I would do,

 

To Islanders: Giordano

To Flames: Hamonic + (one of Strome/Barzal/Pulock/Dalcolle)

 

It's about age for me.  By the time the Flames hit full stride in 2 to 4 years, Giordano will be untradeable and eating up significant cap space but producing at less than ideal output.  Hamonic, on the other hand, is on a good contract, good length, and he's younger.  That, and we could get a blue chip prospect that could help us down the road.

 

I would do that too.   

[MAC331]

I would do that too.   

Good for you two, I don't think BT would be onside with your thinking.

[cccsberg]

Good for you two, I don't think BT would be onside with your thinking.

I don't disagree that the Flames management would not consider it, but not because it might not be a great deal for both teams.  They would get an upgrade in D for a few years for multiple SC runs, while we would get a #2 physical D and a potential #1 RW (Dal Colle), the pick immediately after Sam Bennett.

 

The reason it would never be considered is the leadership provided by Giordano as our Captain, and the fact we are probably looking to trade every one of our Alternate Captains, save Monahan over the next week (if we're lucky).  

[MAC331]

I don't disagree that the Flames management would not consider it, but not because it might not be a great deal for both teams.  They would get an upgrade in D for a few years for multiple SC runs, while we would get a #2 physical D and a potential #1 RW (Dal Colle), the pick immediately after Sam Bennett.

 

The reason it would never be considered is the leadership provided by Giordano as our Captain, and the fact we are probably looking to trade every one of our Alternate Captains, save Monahan over the next week (if we're lucky).  

If you truly want a winning culture such as DET you have to provide some sense of stability and leadership. Lidstrom, Datzuk, Zetterberg, Holstrom and many others provided this for DET over a lot of years while they all made good money. Trading Giordano for who you think will be the next boy wonder just keeps the experiment rolling while chipping away at any established experience and needed leadership. This is why DET was happy to pay Nik Lidstrom well for years.

I think Monahan will eventually be Captain material but not right now while this team is maturing into the experience required to be consistent winners.

Giordano is long term in my picture.

[jjgallow]

If you truly want a winning culture such as DET you have to provide some sense of stability and leadership. Lidstrom, Datzuk, Zetterberg, Holstrom and many others provided this for DET over a lot of years while they all made good money. Trading Giordano for who you think will be the next boy wonder just keeps the experiment rolling while chipping away at any established experience and needed leadership. This is why DET was happy to pay Nik Lidstrom well for years.

I think Monahan will eventually be Captain material but not right now while this team is maturing into the experience required to be consistent winners.

Giordano is long term in my picture.

 

whether we like it or not, there is also a marketability to Giordano that makes the trade unlikely.

 

I am less worried about the leadership, but only slightly less..  There are creative solutions to that.   I'm not disagreeing with the impact.  But the return could be phenomenal.   And that's the only way a trade like that would ever happen.

[rickross]

What did Gio do? I don't get a lot of the trade Gio talk. At some point it's not always about what you can get in return trade value. I think as the captain plus a guy who's going to likely have a 50 pts this season as a D man, he's a rare commodity at the position.

Flames made him captain because he obviously embodies hard work and that "always earned.." Mantra. Personally I've never seen that guy call it in once. All the players say Gio is the epitome of a professional athlete, it's stuff you can't just put a price on.

[kehatch]

What did Gio do? I don't get a lot of the trade Gio talk. At some point it's not always about what you can get in return trade value. I think as the captain plus a guy who's going to likely have a 50 pts this season as a D man, he's a rare commodity at the position.

Flames made him captain because he obviously embodies hard work and that "always earned.." Mantra. Personally I've never seen that guy call it in once. All the players say Gio is the epitome of a professional athlete, it's stuff you can't just put a price on.

If you believe the Flames are years away from being competitive then trading him makes at least some sense. I don't believe that so barring a major overpayment I am not for trading him.

[rickross]

If you believe the Flames are years away from being competitive then trading him makes at least some sense. I don't believe that so barring a major overpayment I am not for trading him.

Straight up. I get the need ppl are arguing for in getting younger assets in return but then who shows those kids how to be pros and provides the veteran leadership? Without those qualities in the room we might as well be the Calgary Oilers

[cccsberg]

Straight up. I get the need ppl are arguing for in getting younger assets in return but then who shows those kids how to be pros and provides the veteran leadership? Without those qualities in the room we might as well be the Calgary Oilers

I agree with what you are saying, it is absolutely true.  Gio's true value goes well beyond stats.  Having said that, anybody can be traded.  I have posited a Gio-Hall+ trade idea a few times, just looking at what such a move could do to the team overall.  It would be a huge loss, but if you could get back 2-3 excellent assets for the future it might be worth it.

 

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Nieuwendyk for Iginla trade that the Flames pulled off in the mid-1990's.  Notwithstanding the bitter contract dispute the Flames were in with Nieuwendyk at the time, the same arguments for and against the Gio trade would apply then.  

 

Having said that, to answer an earlier question, Giordano has done nothing to deserve the trade discussion.  He has and continues to be an exceptional leader and player for the Flames.  For me it is not what he has done, but rather that he is so valuable.  Some teams, specifically the Oilers desperately need exactly what he provides the Flames daily.  Not that this really matters.  That team is so in love and overvalues their own high-end losers the chances they go for another 10 years in the dregs of the NHL, rather than actually doing what needs to be done, no matter the cost, is pretty high.

[The_People1]

What did Gio do? I don't get a lot of the trade Gio talk.

If you believe the Flames are years away from being competitive then trading him makes at least some sense. I don't believe that so barring a major overpayment I am not for trading him.

 

Ya, for me, again, it's about Gio's age and the timing of the Flames's Cup window which is in 2 to 4 years.  I understand "windows" can be somewhat arbitrary and depends on many factors but generally speaking, the Flames are not a serious Cup contender next season.  It will most likely be the season after that or beyond.

 

So hanging onto Giordano past his "best before" date doesn't make sense IF there is a deal in place for the Flames to get a couple blue chip guys in the 20 to 27 year old bracket.  If there's no deal to be had, then don't trade him for the sake of trading him.  I think Giordano is a great captain because he came into the NHL the hard way.  He sets a great example for the rest of the team.

 

Giordano has led this team to the 4th worst record in the NHL currently.  Such a great leader right?  Can we be 4th worse without Giordano?  I think so.  New leaders emerge all the time.  In fact, Giordano was a leader that emerged out of the Flames trading away leaders such as Iginla, Conroy, Regehr, etc.

 

Yes, I'm not saying we trading Giordano as soon as we can but if a deal comes to us where we get a Hamonic + Strome, or something like that, I think we go for it.  For all we know, maybe Hamonic has great leadership skills and will be our future captain.

[rickross]

Ya, for me, again, it's about Gio's age and the timing of the Flames's Cup window which is in 2 to 4 years. I understand "windows" can be somewhat arbitrary and depends on many factors but generally speaking, the Flames are not a serious Cup contender next season. It will most likely be the season after that or beyond.

So hanging onto Giordano past his "best before" date doesn't make sense IF there is a deal in place for the Flames to get a couple blue chip guys in the 20 to 27 year old bracket. If there's no deal to be had, then don't trade him for the sake of trading him. I think Giordano is a great captain because he came into the NHL the hard way. He sets a great example for the rest of the team.

Giordano has led this team to the 4th worst record in the NHL currently. Such a great leader right? Can we be 4th worse without Giordano? I think so. New leaders emerge all the time. In fact, Giordano was a leader that emerged out of the Flames trading away leaders such as Iginla, Conroy, Regehr, etc.

Yes, I'm not saying we trading Giordano as soon as we can but if a deal comes to us where we get a Hamonic + Strome, or something like that, I think we go for it. For all we know, maybe Hamonic has great leadership skills and will be our future captain.

I understand your angle on this. I get how anyone can get traded at anytime if the right offer becomes available. I just think it's the intangibles that Gio brings that are so valuable. I don't hold him responsible for our current season, we overachieved last year and we had a bad start to this season. Teams like the Oilers would absolutely KILL for a Gio type player right now. It's one of those "don't know what you've got till its gone" scenarios. I get the concerns regarding his age and ability to play at a high rate but who's to say Gio doesn't get better with age? He keeps in shape and you can't ignore players like Jagr and Lindstrom, they still provide(d) excellent assets and value to their teams in their older years

[The_People1]

I understand your angle on this. I get how anyone can get traded at anytime if the right offer becomes available. I just think it's the intangibles that Gio brings that are so valuable. I don't hold him responsible for our current season, we overachieved last year and we had a bad start to this season. Teams like the Oilers would absolutely KILL for a Gio type player right now. It's one of those "don't know what you've got till its gone" scenarios. I get the concerns regarding his age and ability to play at a high rate but who's to say Gio doesn't get better with age? He keeps in shape and you can't ignore players like Jagr and Lindstrom, they still provide(d) excellent assets and value to their teams in their older years

 

Intangibles have to translate into measurable results such as points in the standings.  Otherwise, there's nothing to base the value of these intangibles and nothing to measure it against.  Right now, 25 others teams without Giordano in their line-up is beating the Flames who have Giordano.

 

Like, Shane Doan is a great captain who has been with the Coyotes forever but what has that translated into?  They haven't gone very far with him.

[rickross]

Intangibles have to translate into measurable results such as points in the standings. Otherwise, there's nothing to base the value of these intangibles and nothing to measure it against. Right now, 25 others teams without Giordano in their line-up is beating the Flames who have Giordano.

Like, Shane Doan is a great captain who has been with the Coyotes forever but what has that translated into? They haven't gone very far with him.

You could argue had he not been injured last season he wins the Norris trophy. I think had that been the case ppl might be giving Gio more respect, his contract extension would also have been more pricey, so we got a Norris candidate at a very reasonable price. If we're going to blame Gio this year for not making the playoffs should we not give him credit for most of last year's success? I'm sure he played a big part in that "never say die" attitude and improbable 3rd period comebacks. I agree with you in that stats matter but they don't tell the whole story. Gio is a great assets to have during this rebuild, you need someone to set the tone and example for these prospects. I don't envy the Oilers right now but I'm sure they envy us

[cccsberg]

You could argue had he not been injured last season he wins the Norris trophy. I think had that been the case ppl might be giving Gio more respect, his contract extension would also have been more pricey, so we got a Norris candidate at a very reasonable price. If we're going to blame Gio this year for not making the playoffs should we not give him credit for most of last year's success? I'm sure he played a big part in that "never say die" attitude and improbable 3rd period comebacks. I agree with you in that stats matter but they don't tell the whole story. Gio is a great assets to have during this rebuild, you need someone to set the tone and example for these prospects. I don't envy the Oilers right now but I'm sure they envy us

I don't think anybody is blaming Gio for anything, I certainly am not.  However, as a business, sometimes you need to look at the overall big picture and make difficult decisions that could move the whole enterprise ahead.  It is nothing personal.  

 

There was an interesting article on Sportsnet.ca about Stan Bowman, and reflecting that the Salary Cap has provided a built-in excuse to him for trading out valuable players that you might otherwise not because of loyalty (remember BT's early season comments?) and the fact that a bunch of players "earned another chance".  You can't afford to do so.  You need that continuous supply of good, hungry, energetic players to keep teams at the top of their game...

[rickross]

I don't think anybody is blaming Gio for anything, I certainly am not. However, as a business, sometimes you need to look at the overall big picture and make difficult decisions that could move the whole enterprise ahead. It is nothing personal.

There was an interesting article on Sportsnet.ca about Stan Bowman, and reflecting that the Salary Cap has provided a built-in excuse to him for trading out valuable players that you might otherwise not because of loyalty (remember BT's early season comments?) and the fact that a bunch of players "earned another chance". You can't afford to do so. You need that continuous supply of good, hungry, energetic players to keep teams at the top of their game...

I caught that article and it has some good points. Right now the Blackhawks core is so elite, then can afford to bring new guys in every year if need be and it doesn't affect the momentum of the team. I think the Blackhawks have enjoyed so much success that any traded player or prospect they have are just so eager to buy in to their recipe to success.

[MAC331]

I don't think anybody is blaming Gio for anything, I certainly am not.  However, as a business, sometimes you need to look at the overall big picture and make difficult decisions that could move the whole enterprise ahead.  It is nothing personal.  

 

There was an interesting article on Sportsnet.ca about Stan Bowman, and reflecting that the Salary Cap has provided a built-in excuse to him for trading out valuable players that you might otherwise not because of loyalty (remember BT's early season comments?) and the fact that a bunch of players "earned another chance".  You can't afford to do so.  You need that continuous supply of good, hungry, energetic players to keep teams at the top of their game...

In talking about CHI one also needs to look at the players they choose to always keep. Teows, Kane and Hossa are 3 players that can make others look real good by playing with them. Keith and Seabrook have anchored their defense for years. Crawford who no one seems to want to give "elite" recognition to has reliably held the fort in net for them for years now.

 

Our elite forwards are no where near the experience level required to provide the Flames the luxury of moving out good subsidiary players yet.

Giordano and Brodie are our Keith and Seabrook, their play allows a player like Hamilton to grow into being his best.

We are still searching for stability in the form of someone for our net and this may not happen over night.

 

You mention the big picture, yes you had better determine who the important pieces are as you build toward the ideal picture you want for the franchise. It took the right players to come into CHI and it has taken the right GM to realize who the most important cogs are in keeping the franchise a consistent winner.

[DirtyDeeds]

In talking about CHI one also needs to look at the players they choose to always keep. Teows, Kane and Hossa are 3 players that can make others look real good by playing with them. Keith and Seabrook have anchored their defense for years. Crawford who no one seems to want to give "elite" recognition to has reliably held the fort in net for them for years now.

 

Our elite forwards are no where near the experience level required to provide the Flames the luxury of moving out good subsidiary players yet.

Giordano and Brodie are our Keith and Seabrook, their play allows a player like Hamilton to grow into being his best.

We are still searching for stability in the form of someone for our net and this may not happen over night.

 

You mention the big picture, yes you had better determine who the important pieces are as you build toward the ideal picture you want for the franchise. It took the right players to come into CHI and it has taken the right GM to realize who the most important cogs are in keeping the franchise a consistent winner.

So if Chi is to be our model and has 3 forwards and 2 D plus a better than avg Goaltender as their core why are a lot of posters here on our boards insisting that we have 4 top D?  Isn't our 3  top D enough to find fillers for the other spots?

 

We have 3 D - Gio, Brodie and Hamilton considered core on D(Hamilton still being groomed)

We have 3 Forwards - JH and Bennett & Monahan(centers) as core

We have no goaltenders who have stepped up to the 60 game/season  starters role yet, that has even come close to what a starter should bring.

 

Maybe they are thinking with a top 4 D and you can get away with avg goaltending but we don't have any goaltenders who have stepped up. Plus we overestimated our D this season by a large margin. We were supposed to have among the best D in the league when we got Hamilton.