Transitioning to Youth

[travel_dude]

I agree the three I mentioned are a ways off, but still there as options down the road.  Right now we have a good mix of D prospects potentially available over the next 5 years.  Saying that we certainly can use some increased toughness now, with Engelland really the only one of that ilk from my POV.  

 

I've liked what I've seen from both Nakladal and Wotherspoon the past two games and hopefully they will continue to get games and continue to impress.  They are more of a hybrid between physical and puck-moving, which would probably fit in just fine.

 

This summer we will have to make a decision on Gilmour at PC, as well as Hickey at BC.  I could see both of them in the AHL next Fall, but unless we clear out several D there is going to be a serious glut of players at the AHL level.  That would also include Kanzig.

 

Kanzig and whoever can go to the ECHL if the Flames really want them or there isn't space.  Hickey has not exactly lit it up, so he may need another year at BU.  

[cccsberg]

Kanzig and whoever can go to the ECHL if the Flames really want them or there isn't space.  Hickey has not exactly lit it up, so he may need another year at BU.  

Sure, the Flames can utilize their ECHL team for overflow prospects, as they have been for a couple years, and put whomever they wish there.  As for Hickey, not sure what the "lit it up" comment refers to, points I suppose, though actually being a great defender would rank pretty high in my books.

[cccsberg]

As far as going with youth is concerned, it seems pretty apparent that the fact that Granlund is waiver-eligible next year versus not for Shinkaruk was a factor in the recent trade.  In the past two years that issue has been a factor in several Flames trades, e.g. Reinhart, Shore...  It seems to be especially relevant for guys that have had significant NHL games but haven't fully made it onto the team.  

 

To avoid the issue you'd have to consider perhaps not bringing up a player for a cup of coffee, or a few games to get their feet wet until they are pretty much ready to make the next step.  That would ensure other teams really wouldn't have the info at the NHL level to justify picking them up on waivers if they afterwards get sent back down for more seasoning.  

[MAC331]

Olas-Mattson is currently out of commission, and still seems a long shot to come to Canada.  He has stated he was interested, but somehow didn't make it last year.  It's very possible he joins the Heat next season, but I won't hold my breath until I hear he is at least coming over for one of the camps.  He is still very young by D-man standards.  Rafikov is not likely Canada bound anytime soon.  He's still in Y1 of a two year KHL deal.  He isn't exactly getting top minutes in the KHL.  Bruce is way too slight to be ready for the NHL anytime soon.  Way too young to be playing in the AHL.  I would put at least a 5 year wait for him to NHL ready, if ever.

 

I think Hickey, Andersson and Kylington have the edge right now.  Two of them play against men now, and Andersson seems to be pro size already.  All three are at least a year away from the NHL, at a minimum.  If Olas-Mattson is going to play in NA, he will need to make that transition sooner than later.  This summer should give us an idea if he is interested.

Why is Morrison becoming a forgotten man ? he was talked up quite a bit coming out of college.

As far as going with youth is concerned, it seems pretty apparent that the fact that Granlund is waiver-eligible next year versus not for Shinkaruk was a factor in the recent trade.  In the past two years that issue has been a factor in several Flames trades, e.g. Reinhart, Shore...  It seems to be especially relevant for guys that have had significant NHL games but haven't fully made it onto the team.  

 

To avoid the issue you'd have to consider perhaps not bringing up a player for a cup of coffee, or a few games to get their feet wet until they are pretty much ready to make the next step.  That would ensure other teams really wouldn't have the info at the NHL level to justify picking them up on waivers if they afterwards get sent back down for more seasoning.  

I think the day we resigned Stajan ( for whatever reason ) put a wrench in keeping players such as Knight, Reinhart and now Granlund around.

[cross16]

Why is Morrison becoming a forgotten man ? he was talked up quite a bit coming out of college.

He's having a really tough season in the A right now. By all accounts he's been pretty sub par although has played better as of late.

Not sayin he should be written off just that if he makes it, will probably take longer.

[MAC331]

He's having a really tough season in the A right now. By all accounts he's been pretty sub par although has played better as of late.

Not sayin he should be written off just that if he makes it, will probably take longer.

THX

[travel_dude]

Why is Morrison becoming a forgotten man ? he was talked up quite a bit coming out of college.

I think the day we resigned Stajan ( for whatever reason ) put a wrench in keeping players such as Knight, Reinhart and now Granlund around.

 

Morrison has been scratched a fair bit this season.  He finally has a few good games in a row this past week.  He was touted for his shot, but his defensive game was mostly non-existent this year.

 

I think he is still in a good spot to become better.  I hope he does.  

[jjgallow]

I contest the idea we are rebuilding because I feel we are done rebuilding.  Our young core is basically established with Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Brodie, and Hamilton.  It's about finding the right veterans at the right price to fill out the roster and emerge as Cup contenders. 

 

I also contest the idea we are carrying over the "always earned, never given" mantra because this season is proof that Hartley plays favorites.  It's earned from last year and then always given this year.

 

But sure, trade Giordano if we can get a young Jarome Iginla.  That we should do always whether we are rebuilding or not.

 

I don't personally believe that listing 5 players is adequate to describe a core.

 

6 forwards, 4 defencemen, and a top young goalie.....   Or, even somewhat Close to that with a couple vets....

 

that, I would call a core.

 

IMHO, a team's core is 11 players.  We've got 5 (youth-wise).

 

If we had, say...8....then yeah, we could fill in the rest.

 

then there is the issue regarding the "rebuilding" definition.

 

 

Anyway, Totally agree on Giordano.   I'm thinking we're extreme minorities here on that.  Although I've talked to a lot of people around town who seem to feel the same way (or maybe sense that I do and want to be nice, lol).

[MAC331]

I don't personally believe that listing 5 players is adequate to describe a core.

 

6 forwards, 4 defencemen, and a top young goalie.....   Or, even somewhat Close to that with a couple vets....

 

that, I would call a core.

 

IMHO, a team's core is 11 players.  We've got 5 (youth-wise).

 

If we had, say...8....then yeah, we could fill in the rest.

 

then there is the issue regarding the "rebuilding" definition.

 

 

Anyway, Totally agree on Giordano.   I'm thinking we're extreme minorities here on that.  Although I've talked to a lot of people around town who seem to feel the same way (or maybe sense that I do and want to be nice, lol).

Timing is everything in getting a good deal for any asset, now is not the time to be trading Giordano. Who is it you think you will get for him ?

[jjgallow]

Timing is everything in getting a good deal for any asset, now is not the time to be trading Giordano. Who is it you think you will get for him ?

 

Unfortunately, I think what we really need is a solid young defenceman.  Any team that needs Gio, won't be giving up a younger version of the same thing.

 

So, I would say, the best return value would probably be something like two first round picks.  Which we could, perhaps turn around and trade elsewhere for a young defenceman.

 

 

Alternatively, a big young Right winger.  Quick example:

 

Say, the Dallas stars, who are contenders but missing a defensive presence:

 

For:  Nichushkin straight up, or Guryanov + first rounder, or Brett Ritchie + first rounder.

[robrob1974]

Unfortunately, I think what we really need is a solid young defenceman.  Any team that needs Gio, won't be giving up a younger version of the same thing.

 

So, I would say, the best return value would probably be something like two first round picks.  Which we could, perhaps turn around and trade elsewhere for a young defenceman.

 

 

Alternatively, a big young Right winger.  Quick example:

 

Say, the Dallas stars, who are contenders but missing a defensive presence:

 

For:  Nichushkin straight up, or Guryanov + first rounder, or Brett Ritchie + first rounder.

 

The only team that might have that is the NYI. They said they want a young D guy though. 

[MAC331]

Unfortunately, I think what we really need is a solid young defenceman.  Any team that needs Gio, won't be giving up a younger version of the same thing.

 

So, I would say, the best return value would probably be something like two first round picks.  Which we could, perhaps turn around and trade elsewhere for a young defenceman.

 

 

Alternatively, a big young Right winger.  Quick example:

 

Say, the Dallas stars, who are contenders but missing a defensive presence:

 

For:  Nichushkin straight up, or Guryanov + first rounder, or Brett Ritchie + first rounder.

Is it your belief that a move such as this advances our building efforts or has it take a step back for two forward later on ?

Removing a player such as Giordano has a sequence of rippling effects. You have to ask yourself if you are prepared to sacrifice the possibility of a steady progression in order to "try" and find another path towards creating a winner.

 

I see Giordano doing much like Lindstrom did for DET, providing a steady positive influence for his team mates. I think this is very valuable as you try and create a winning culture.

[travel_dude]

Is it your belief that a move such as this advances our building efforts or has it take a step back for two forward later on ?

Removing a player such as Giordano has a sequence of rippling effects. You have to ask yourself if you are prepared to sacrifice the possibility of a steady progression in order to "try" and find another path towards creating a winner.

 

I see Giordano doing much like Lindstrom did for DET, providing a steady positive influence for his team mates. I think this is very valuable as you try and create a winning culture.

 

The only way I trade Gio is for a collection of sure-thing players.  Not middle of the road players either.  Forsberg, Josi, etc.

That's never going to happen, so why consider anything else?  Gio may not be the best captain in the league, but he is the type of player you need for years to come.  He has been part of the change to a winning environment.  Hartley and BT have to help make the team a contender, and that doesn't include trading Gio.

[Dmac1103]

Even if the team wanted to trade Gio they would have to this year before his extension kicks in because of the No Trade Clause and we would not get what a lot of fans think we should for a player like Gio. His contract extension is for 6 years at over 6 Million per and the fact is he is 31 and that will scare a few teams off. If they decide to move him he will have to be packaged with something else to offset that contract. The other issue other teams will look at is the fact that only once has he played a full 82 games and twice over 80 games. The rest of the time he has missed 20+ games, that with age, contract, and a No Trade Clause hampers any sort of trade value for him, which maybe a blessing in disguise for the Flames.

[MAC331]

The only way I trade Gio is for a collection of sure-thing players.  Not middle of the road players either.  Forsberg, Josi, etc.

That's never going to happen, so why consider anything else?  Gio may not be the best captain in the league, but he is the type of player you need for years to come.  He has been part of the change to a winning environment.  Hartley and BT have to help make the team a contender, and that doesn't include trading Gio.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not be the best captain in the league" is there certain criteria ? Giordano provides leadership on and off the ice from what I hear while having the utmost respect from his team mates, that is proof enough for me. He plays the game in the right way.

[420since1974]

If it wasn't for the pull-ups that he passed on, he would have tested as the fittest Flame.

[MAC331]

Even if the team wanted to trade Gio they would have to this year before his extension kicks in because of the No Trade Clause and we would not get what a lot of fans think we should for a player like Gio. His contract extension is for 6 years at over 6 Million per and the fact is he is 31 and that will scare a few teams off. If they decide to move him he will have to be packaged with something else to offset that contract. The other issue other teams will look at is the fact that only once has he played a full 82 games and twice over 80 games. The rest of the time he has missed 20+ games, that with age, contract, and a No Trade Clause hampers any sort of trade value for him, which maybe a blessing in disguise for the Flames.

Other than a few on here, I don't think Flames management have any intention of trading Giordano any time soon.

[cccsberg]

Why is Morrison becoming a forgotten man ? he was talked up quite a bit coming out of college.

I think the day we resigned Stajan ( for whatever reason ) put a wrench in keeping players such as Knight, Reinhart and now Granlund around.

Morrison apparently has played excellent the past several games so it seems like he may be coming around.  Personally I think its the backlog of D players and apparent lack of opportunity that has put off many of the guys in the AHL.  As things progress and hopefully open up we shall see if some of these guys start to kick it into high gear.

 

The Stajan re-signing was for too long, but not inconsistent with several other signings e.g. Engelland, Raymond... It has become apparent that the Flames management seriously underestimated the time for our better prospects to mature, starting right at Gaudreau and going onwards, which led them to sign a bunch of "fillers" for too many years.  We are still suffering because of that and only after next year will that issue mostly be gone, unless BT can pull off several great trades in the next week/around the draft to send a bunch of vets packing...

[cccsberg]

Timing is everything in getting a good deal for any asset, now is not the time to be trading Giordano. Who is it you think you will get for him ?

I'm not sure trading him would be a great idea, but I think you should be able to get Hall & ? for him at the moment.  The Oilers desperately need someone like Giordano for the next few years to stabilize their defence and provide leadership.  We need someone like Hall on the wing (one of the Finns?) though I question whether or not he's been permanently ruined by the Oilers.

[MAC331]

Morrison apparently has played excellent the past several games so it seems like he may be coming around.  Personally I think its the backlog of D players and apparent lack of opportunity that has put off many of the guys in the AHL.  As things progress and hopefully open up we shall see if some of these guys start to kick it into high gear.

 

The Stajan re-signing was for too long, but not inconsistent with several other signings e.g. Engelland, Raymond... It has become apparent that the Flames management seriously underestimated the time for our better prospects to mature, starting right at Gaudreau and going onwards, which led them to sign a bunch of "fillers" for too many years.  We are still suffering because of that and only after next year will that issue mostly be gone, unless BT can pull off several great trades in the next week/around the draft to send a bunch of vets packing...

THX ccc. Definitely agree with you on Stajan and the complexion the rebuild took on. BT has some dancing to do yet. LOL

[travel_dude]

I'm not sure what you mean by "not be the best captain in the league" is there certain criteria ? Giordano provides leadership on and off the ice from what I hear while having the utmost respect from his team mates, that is proof enough for me. He plays the game in the right way.

 

I think he needs to make his opinions more known with the coach.  I get the sense that Hartley makes all the on-ice decisions.  I think your captain needs to add his voice there.  Whether that means suggesting a lineup change, or a change to PP usage or whatever, I get the sense that Gio doesn't feel it's his place.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that is exactly what is needed.  

[MAC331]

I think he needs to make his opinions more known with the coach.  I get the sense that Hartley makes all the on-ice decisions.  I think your captain needs to add his voice there.  Whether that means suggesting a lineup change, or a change to PP usage or whatever, I get the sense that Gio doesn't feel it's his place.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that is exactly what is needed.  

WRONG

[travel_dude]

WRONG

 

Appreciate the well thought out, detailed comment.  

[JTech780]

I think he needs to make his opinions more known with the coach.  I get the sense that Hartley makes all the on-ice decisions.  I think your captain needs to add his voice there.  Whether that means suggesting a lineup change, or a change to PP usage or whatever, I get the sense that Gio doesn't feel it's his place.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that is exactly what is needed.  

 

I would disagree a bit there. I think your captain and coach have to work hand in hand, but I see the captain as ago between from the players and the coach. I think the captain should the guy the coach leans on to get the players to buy into the coaches plan, meanwhile the captain also has to let coach know the pulse of the room.

[travel_dude]

I would disagree a bit there. I think your captain and coach have to work hand in hand, but I see the captain as ago between from the players and the coach. I think the captain should the guy the coach leans on to get the players to buy into the coaches plan, meanwhile the captain also has to let coach know the pulse of the room.

 

That's a better way of putting it.  I think the players have to play for each other, not the coach.  Gio being on-ice has a good sense of who is missing an assignment. He has to provide that feedback to the coach, since he is in a leadership position.  But, you are right. It's a two-way street.