Calgary Flames Drafting and Development: Your Analysis

[MAC331]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

My opinion of Spoon is based on his career to date and his lower ceiling.  THose with lesser offense at the jinior and AHL level tend to not get above the 3rd pair.  I know he played with Jones his last season in Portland, so his numbers were inflated that year.  Had one ok year in the AHL and never really got back there.  

 

Saying that, it's more how I view the prospects above him.  They have unique skill sets or elite skating/scoring.  By this time next year, Spoon could be past Kulak.  Just don't know right now.

Wotherspoon had a very good season in Stockton and as far as I'm concerned has earned his consideration for the 6 or 7th defenseman this upcoming season. No flash, no flair but he has become a steady reliable type, nothing wrong with this for a 3rd pairing D. Like I said I think you take Kulak and Wotherspoon right out of that group because IMO not one is "above" them in the real pecking order to the NHL. Most may have more talent but not quite ready.

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Exactly.  The reallity of the situation is that Kylington is literally a kid, in the most biological sense.  Just like his body is not fully physically developed as it will be in his 20's, his brain isn't either.   Our ability to make split second risk evaluations is very much tied to brain development that persists into our early 20's.   As this is a key component of being a defenceman, it is one of the reasons why they develop later.   Just as it impact some young forwards...less so in terms of ability, and moreso in terms of being prone to injury (such as open ice hits).

 

It will come.

 

What I'm also interested in Kylington, is if he's able to step up the offensive part of his game.   For the past 3-4 years, he has consistently been in leagues slightly too advanced for him (the curse of excellence), which has impeded development of this part of his game.   His offensive game clearly shows in SupereElit, unfortunately all that did was land him too early into the SHL, and then the AHL.   Hoping he can soon make the translation.......very similar to what Backlund had to go through in his development.

 

 

Who's Kulak?

 

Went back to the scouting reports.  They must have seen things that we tend to miss or he has lost a step in his first couple of years in NA.  At least his +/- has rebounded.

For what it's worth, his draft year scouting reports:

 

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/what-scouts-say-oliver-kylington/c-772908 

[zima]

So we picked before TO and passed on Timothy Liljegren did we do the right thing or did we make a big mistake or are they comparable?  Timothy Liljegren was projected to go much higher but so was Valimaki although Vali was only a couple of picks higher Lije was considered to be top 5 in European skaters similar to Kyl. What do you PPL think matter much or not or did we make the best choice for our pick?

 

[MAC331]

23 minutes ago, zima said:

So we picked before TO and passed on Timothy Liljegren did we do the right thing or did we make a big mistake or are they comparable?  Timothy Liljegren was projected to go much higher but so was Valimaki although Vali was only a couple of picks higher Lije was considered to be top 5 in European skaters similar to Kyl. What do you PPL think matter much or not or did we make the best choice for our pick?

 

 I think we made the right choice, both good players but Valimaki has the size over Liljegren.

[The_People1]

45 minutes ago, zima said:

So we picked before TO and passed on Timothy Liljegren did we do the right thing or did we make a big mistake or are they comparable?  Timothy Liljegren was projected to go much higher but so was Valimaki although Vali was only a couple of picks higher Lije was considered to be top 5 in European skaters similar to Kyl. What do you PPL think matter much or not or did we make the best choice for our pick?

 

 

I personally favor Liljegren for his RHS.  In 3 years when Stone or Hamonic's contact is up, we will need a RHS to step into the mix... RHS are harder to find that LHS... To replace Gio/Brodie.

[cross16]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I personally favor Liljegren for his RHS.  In 3 years when Stone or Hamonic's contact is up, we will need a RHS to step into the mix... RHS are harder to find that LHS... To replace Gio/Brodie.

 

This is fair and I think when you compare Liljegren to Valamaki it's going to come down to personal preference. I think they were in the same grouping so I don't think the Flames made a mistake by any means. Sure you can argue the RH shot, and for that reason I did favor Liljegren as well, but it was really a coin clip between the two.

 

Liljegren is a RH shot and has a flair/dynamic element to his game. I think they both have similar upsides (top pairing) but Valamaki has the higher floor and was the "safer" of the two for lack of a better term. He just goes about his business in a much more steady way than Liljegren. 

 

See how they develop but i don't think the Flames made a mistake. 

[jjgallow]

On 14/07/2017 at 3:06 PM, MAC331 said:

 I think we made the right choice, both good players but Valimaki has the size over Liljegren.

 

Absolutely.   I think Valimaki has more than size advantage...I find Liljegren underwhelming in a number of areas.  I think the only reason he was rated as high as he was...was his RH shot.    And yes, it would have been nicer to get a Right-handed Valimaki.      But IMHO they are almost two different calibres.   And being a RH does not make up for that.

 

For example, Valimaki is described as a "two way defencemen", while Liljegren is described as "offensive".

 

Yet Valimaki surpasses him in literally every offensive category imho.   Most notably, goal scoring.   Simply put, Valimaki has a great shot.  And Liljegren...just doesn't imho.  Some would disagree I'm sure...but the results aren't there, except in Superelite which is not very predicative.   That's kind of a big drawback for an "offensive minded" player.

 

Other things...plus/minus, likelihood of being nominated captain....all stack in Valimaki's favour.

 

Another thing is rate of improvement.   Liljegren was a vastly higher rated prospect 4 years ago, and improved modestly from that time.   Valimaki, on the other hand, has shown Exceptional improvement every year and especially recently, finally surpassing Liljegren.   I find this suggestive that he is more capable of continuing that improvement curve.

 

And bottom line, although they were closely ranked with lots of discrepancy, I think Valimaki was in fact rated higher overall.

 

 

[rickross]

1 hour ago, zima said:

So we picked before TO and passed on Timothy Liljegren did we do the right thing or did we make a big mistake or are they comparable?  Timothy Liljegren was projected to go much higher but so was Valimaki although Vali was only a couple of picks higher Lije was considered to be top 5 in European skaters similar to Kyl. What do you PPL think matter much or not or did we make the best choice for our pick?

 

I was asking the same thing, did we take the best player available? I think Valamaki and Liljegren are comparable potential wise but they offer different games. It would appear Valimaki is already the more complete player who's now starting to display an offensive flair. You could say he's the safer pick right now as he has been credited for playing well in his end..what's the point of a D man that can't defend right? I would have been happy with either pick but like jjgallow mentioned it looks as though Valamaki might just have as high if not a higher offensive ceiling 

[zima]

It kinda sounds like the Anderson Kyl draft yr both very capable players but Rasmus is more all rounded player and Kyl is more a offensive player with lots to work on the defensive side. When we were passing on Lilje I kinda thought of Kyl right away exact same scenario both were high euro players but moved down only Kyl moved down a lot compared but like I said same thing.

[rickross]

Ranking the prospect pools of every Canadian NHL team! ( Not listing every prospect but some notable ones)

 

1.Winnepeg Jets: (Kyle Connor, Nicolas Petan, Eric Comrie,Kristian Vesalainen, Jack Roslovic,Logan Stanley)

They have arguably the most balanced group of prospects, good potential amongst forwards and D men, their future looks bright but presently the team hasn't achieved much. 

 

2.Calgary Flames: (Mark Jankowski, Tyler Parsons, Jusso Valimaki, Spencer Foo, Adam Fox, Rasmus Andersson, Jon Gillies, Dillon Dube)

Man, have the Flames improved their drafting and development or what? Gone are the days where Chris Chucko is your best prospect lol. Flames have a good balance as well, strength lies in their D men and upcoming goalies. They have a lot of prospects potentially on the cusp such as Poirier, Klimchuk and Kylington as well but u guys already know that!

 

3.Vancouver Canucks: (Thatcher Demko, Brock Boeser, Nikolay Goldobin, Jonathan Dahlen,Olli Juolevi, Elias Pettersson, Kole Lind, Michael DiPietro)

If you haven't been paying attention, the Canucks have quietly assembled a pretty solid group of prospects over the last few years. They had a solid 2017 draft and have some pieces that could become future cornerstones for the franchise. 

 

4.Toronto Maple Leafs: (Kasperi Kapanen, Jeremy Bracco, Kerby Rychel,Timothy Liljegren)

I'd actually rank them higher but a lot of their prospect graduated this year , and they still have a bunch of picks to add throughout the future draft years. They don't have much defensive depth among prospects and invested heavily in skill and speed. Overall a strong group for the future, they will be a team to watch moving forward. 

 

5.Edmonton Oilers: (Laurent Brossoit, Jujhar Khaira, Ethan Bear, Caleb Jones, Jesse Puljujarvi, Tyler Benson, Nick Ellis, Kailer Yamamoto, Stuart Skinner)

Oilers have improved their drafting , they have some decent balance now across the board but there's still much to be desired. They have some solid prospects on D and in net now as opposed to just focusing on skilled forwards for their farm. Yamamoto could turn into a steal if his game translates, still waiting on Pool Party to show up though. Overall a better assortment of prospects they now have to work with. 

 

6.Ottawa Senators:  (Logan Brown, Colin White, Thomas Chabot)

Not much depth at all in their farm system, I was a bit surprised they traded Dahlen to the Nucks as he was one of their blue chip prospects. It's boom or bust for the Sens, they either continue to contend or they face a rebuild and overhaul very soon. Not much to get excited for but they have a couple really good prospects in tow. 

 

7.Montreal Canadiens:  (Charles Hudon,Nikita Scherbak,Ryan Poehling, Mike McCarron)

Its Carey Price or die with this organization. They could go deep on the back of Price but if he gets injured or misses time this is a completely different team. Not much in the way of prospects, Drouin is still up in the air but I do think losing Sergachev will come back to haunt them. They have few resources to draw from internally so they'll be relying on expensive options such as trades, signing FA's etc. Overall, they hold the least amount of potential amongst prospects. 

[kehatch]

It's too early to judge yet, but the early impressions on the Flames 2015 and 16 drafts are very positive. In fact 2016 might be the best one in a long time. 

 

It shows the influence a GM team has. Same guys in charge of scouting under Sutter, Feaster, and Treliving but totally different drafts. 

 

The 2013 draft was supposed to define our future identity. But Monahan (the obvious pick) might be the only player in the bunch. 

[MAC331]

Depending what happens coming out of camp and the preseason I think if the decision is to push back Jankowski and Foo our farm looks very good. There are gaps closing throughout the system from the main team down so we have ready players for succession. The one position of concern has to remain RHSD for some future focus.

[kehatch]

Good news is that you have to go back to 2009 to find a draft where we didn't score a hit. (The jury is still out on 2015 and 2012, but they look good) 

 

2007- Backlund 

2008- Brodie (Bouma) 

2009- Bad Draft

2010- Ferland 

2011- Gaudreau (Baertschi,  Granlund) 

2012- Jankowski (Gilles, Kulak) 

2013- Monahan (Poirier, Klimchuk) 

2014- Bennett 

2015- Anderson (Kylington, Mangiapane) 

2016- Tkachuk (Parsons, Fox, ++) 

 

Before 07 drafting and development for the Flames had been bad for a long time. 

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

The 2013 draft was supposed to define our future identity. 

 

It's an interesting look back.  Based on my own rankings at the time, I wouldve drafted,

 

6. Darnell Nurse

22. Valentine Zykov

28. Steven Santini

 

Pretty eww, I know.  I recall a lot of fans were surprised with Poirier and Klimchuk.  Most wanted Ryan Hartman for his hard-nosed style.  There were a few calls for Robert Hagg who was one of the top ranked Euro D in the draft.

 

I also wanted Zach Fucale.  In a full rebuild, you gotta start with D and G because they take longer to mature.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Depending what happens coming out of camp and the preseason I think if the decision is to push back Jankowski and Foo our farm looks very good. There are gaps closing throughout the system from the main team down so we have ready players for succession. The one position of concern has to remain RHSD for some future focus.

 

It's true that we have less depth on the RD side.  But it's also true that that side is where the Flames organization is most stacked with young NHL players.  Hammy, Hamonic, Stone.  Prospect-wise, there is just Andersson and Fox.  But those two are the next wave and will have trouble breaking the NHL lineup for the next 3 years if ready.  

 

I am less concerned about depth as much as high-end depth.  Valimaki-Kylington (LD) and Andersson-Fox (RD) does not leave me concerned about either.  

 

Having a lack of high-end forwards on the farm is more concerning to me.  Our top prospects are playing in the NHL or should be.  There are a few guys like Mangiapane, Poirier, Shink and Klimchuk that could step into a bottom 6 role, but I'm not convinced yet they are NHL level.  That's not a lot of forward depth of high-end prospects.  

[cross16]

9 hours ago, kehatch said:

The 2013 draft was supposed to define our future identity. But Monahan (the obvious pick) might be the only player in the bunch. 

 

Why I consider it pretty impressive that the Flames are where they are today and in their rebuild considering how little Treliving was really handed and how the previous regime basically blew all good opportunities they had to rebuild this team. Save for drafting Gaudreau, Feaster set this rebuild back and luckily Treliving rescued it with deals like Dougie Hamilton. 

 

Usually a quick turn around in a rebuild is preceded but some very good drafting but that wasn't the case in Calgary. 

[MAC331]

42 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's true that we have less depth on the RD side.  But it's also true that that side is where the Flames organization is most stacked with young NHL players.  Hammy, Hamonic, Stone.  Prospect-wise, there is just Andersson and Fox.  But those two are the next wave and will have trouble breaking the NHL lineup for the next 3 years if ready.  

 

I am less concerned about depth as much as high-end depth.  Valimaki-Kylington (LD) and Andersson-Fox (RD) does not leave me concerned about either.  

 

Having a lack of high-end forwards on the farm is more concerning to me.  Our top prospects are playing in the NHL or should be.  There are a few guys like Mangiapane, Poirier, Shink and Klimchuk that could step into a bottom 6 role, but I'm not convinced yet they are NHL level.  That's not a lot of forward depth of high-end prospects.  

I would say signing Stone was due to the lack of RHSD prospects defensemen beyond Andersson right now, even at an expense. We have time and BT can always trade Stone if need be.

I am not sure there will ever be real high end talent held in the AHL for to long.

I think you have to consider the need on the main team when sizing up the talent requirement being held onto in your minor leagues. Just from numbers alone you will have more bottom 6 types but you want them developed and ready to fill in with quality efforts as called upon. As an example look at the discussions we are all having about Jankowski and Foo with respect to how they might fit in on the main team. I am saying we don't necessarily need to force them onto the team initially. They will definitely see time up this season and I fully expect them to both be on the team the season after.

Poirier, Shinkaruk, Klimchuk all need to keep sharpening their skills and be ready. On the RW side if you start with Foo, Pribyl, Tuulola, Fischer and a few more drafts we could be covered. Everyone is going on about Jankowski with Backlund and Frolik, the player I wouldn't mind seeing there is Poirier.

[rickross]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

Good news is that you have to go back to 2009 to find a draft where we didn't score a hit. (The jury is still out on 2015 and 2012, but they look good) 

 

2007- Backlund 

2008- Brodie (Bouma) 

2009- Bad Draft

2010- Ferland 

2011- Gaudreau (Baertschi,  Granlund) 

2012- Jankowski (Gilles, Kulak) 

2013- Monahan (Poirier, Klimchuk) 

2014- Bennett 

2015- Anderson (Kylington, Mangiapane) 

2016- Tkachuk (Parsons, Fox, ++) 

 

Before 07 drafting and development for the Flames had been bad for a long time. 

Much improved drafting rapport..like night and day. I remember not even bothering paying attention to the draft during the Sutter regime. I'd say Flames have done quite well so far, a few misses were drafting Hunter Smith over Christian Dvorak, I still like Dube but we could have also taken Taylor Raddysh last year, Mason Macdonald over Thatcher Demko...jury is still out on both goalies even though Demko is further ahead in his development. Also we drafted T. Wotherspoon over Nikita Kucherov!..Kucherov would have been a great RW to pair on the top line. 

[redfire11]

10 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

 Everyone is going on about Jankowski with Backlund and Frolik, the player I wouldn't mind seeing there is Poirier.

I think I am the only one wanting to see Janks with those 2. The more I look at it I see Poirier as a good tryout with the Backs line. Poirier is a fast straight line player. With Backs line getting the majority defensive end starts poirier would capitalize on dump ins forcing the opposition defence and goalie into quick judgements. Backs and Frolik are smart enough to capitalize on this. Definitely worth a look as Poirier is hungry to prove himself after a problem season.

(If successful would make a league wide feel good story)

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I think I am the only one wanting to see Janks with those 2. The more I look at it I see Poirier as a good tryout with the Backs line. Poirier is a fast straight line player. With Backs line getting the majority defensive end starts poirier would capitalize on dump ins forcing the opposition defence and goalie into quick judgements. Backs and Frolik are smart enough to capitalize on this. Definitely worth a look as Poirier is hungry to prove himself after a problem season.

(If successful would make a league wide feel good story)

 

I would think Janko is better off on the 4th line with Stajan playing LW and maybe Brouwer.  He can learn there.  I am thinking that a line of Tkachuk-Bennett-Poirier might be something to consider, assuming that Poirier shows what he did in Dev Camp.  Three known agitators.  None afraid to go to the net.  Greasy goals would abound.  

 

I'm saying that because I think Poirier is suited for RW.  If he makes the team over someone like Foo.

[conundrumed]

19 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I think I am the only one wanting to see Janks with those 2. The more I look at it I see Poirier as a good tryout with the Backs line. Poirier is a fast straight line player. With Backs line getting the majority defensive end starts poirier would capitalize on dump ins forcing the opposition defence and goalie into quick judgements. Backs and Frolik are smart enough to capitalize on this. Definitely worth a look as Poirier is hungry to prove himself after a problem season.

(If successful would make a league wide feel good story)

I brought it up a few weeks ago but don't know if I was first. But like anything, it's for discussion.

Like kehatch said, it's nice to have some ELC's on the roster, but of course it is up to the player to show he belongs.

Most are slotting him as a 4C. Just thought I'd add in another scenario that seems like it could have potential, but again, for discussion purposes.

I'm still wondering if Frolik is our 1RW if we make no other moves.

We have so many wingers, I hope maybe GG can get creative, particularly to get Bennett someone higher up the talent chart to play with.

 

[MAC331]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would think Janko is better off on the 4th line with Stajan playing LW and maybe Brouwer.  He can learn there.  I am thinking that a line of Tkachuk-Bennett-Poirier might be something to consider, assuming that Poirier shows what he did in Dev Camp.  Three known agitators.  None afraid to go to the net.  Greasy goals would abound.  

 

I'm saying that because I think Poirier is suited for RW.  If he makes the team over someone like Foo.

Where do have Lazar ?

[MAC331]

47 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I think I am the only one wanting to see Janks with those 2. The more I look at it I see Poirier as a good tryout with the Backs line. Poirier is a fast straight line player. With Backs line getting the majority defensive end starts poirier would capitalize on dump ins forcing the opposition defence and goalie into quick judgements. Backs and Frolik are smart enough to capitalize on this. Definitely worth a look as Poirier is hungry to prove himself after a problem season.

(If successful would make a league wide feel good story)

I can understand the thinking but I don't see it as necessary this season. Tkachuk busted his way onto the scene in his normal position and they put him with those two which was smart. We are going to hopefully have a line of Tkachuk,Bennett and Lazar learning to play together which I thinkis enough experimenting going on. We need an experienced line which IMO would be Versteeg, Backlund and Frolik taking care of the opposition's top lines. The good thing we do have this season is a number of versatile players that can play either wing and some can play C.

[rickross]

5 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Depending what happens coming out of camp and the preseason I think if the decision is to push back Jankowski and Foo our farm looks very good. There are gaps closing throughout the system from the main team down so we have ready players for succession. The one position of concern has to remain RHSD for some future focus.

This is pretty much what I'm expecting, is for Foo and Janko to start the year in Stockton. Andersson and Kulak/Wotherspoon probably have the best chance of taking the open D spot. Unless we see very strong showings at camp from Shink,Klimchuck or Poirier they'll likely be back down in Stockton too. Hathaway, Hamilton and Lazar will likely get the strongest looks, as much as I'd love for a prospect to break through GG may prefer to start the season off with familiarity and gradually introduce prospects throughout the season...if they stick with the team , great! If not it gives us a pretty strong team down in Stockton

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Where do have Lazar ?

 

Let me put it this way.  If Poirier is making the team as a 3rd line RW, then Lazar is fighting it out for a spot in the lineup.  The T-B-P line would only happen if Poirier can beat out Lazar for a spot.  Unfortunately, we have prospects that are waiver eligible (Shinkaruk, Poirier and Lazar).  Lazar has a leg up based on experience.  Both Poirier and Shinkaruk were costly to obtain, so losing either would sting.  Any of them could be effective NHL players.