jjgallow Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, sak22 said: Source??? I don't recall anything of that nature, changes to the roster of course because it always happens, but don't remember Brad ever saying he's looking to move a core piece, so I don't know why you keep going on about last offseason, it was a Satoshi Nakamototy market if we made a move you'd be sitting here today criticizing that trade. I guess thats the life of a GM, everything you do is wrong, everything you don't do is wrong and the grass is always greener on the other side. But that's what they sign up for and winning like...a single playoff series at some point isn't exactly a big ask. Nobody complains when the GM fires coaches for more coaches who do even worse or when he turfs goalies for more goalies who do worse. We're just empathasing with the GM somehow. It's a high turnover job for a reason. You take that job you're going to get promoted or fired most of the time. Honestly I find our loyalty and concern for the well-being of our management troubling and absurd. The poor choices they make affect the livelihoods of far more than their own. And I'm not even talking about the players because they have a pretty good gig too. How about all the barely surviving businesses who rely on sporting to make it from year to year and the struggling employees with kids that they support. Yeah I don't get our tunnel vision empathy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 1 minute ago, rickross said: That sure is a lot of misses! Especially at a critical time during a rebuild. That much consistency in misses should reflect the many cracks within the Flames philosophy of drafting and developing let alone our basic genetic makeup of this team. Either we just have extremely poor luck or the formulas we are using to rate, draft and sign our players is wrong! Flames have had too much of a yo-yo philosophy during this rebuild. We were young, then we were truculent, then we we fast, small and skilled...now we are searching for that magical balance but missing some key parts still. Sam Bennet and Adam Fox are perfect examples of what this franchise is failing at. We might get it right sometimes , but it’s as if players never quite reach their full potential while they are Flames. They are failing at not being located in New York city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, cross16 said: They are failing at not being located in New York city? Obviously not. But it’s yet another blue chip prospect we let slip from our grasp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 1 minute ago, rickross said: Obviously not. But it’s yet another blue chip prospect we let slip from our grasp They had no choice. Would you prefer they had waited him out and got nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 On 5/11/2021 at 5:13 PM, The_People1 said: Because I feel the plan was there and I approve of it. Target #1 C and build from the G out. 2013 - Thought we already drafted a #1 Center (Monahan) before he arrived 2014 - Thought we drafted another #1 Center (Bennett) and a future #1 Goalie (Macdonald) 2015 - Went D heavy in the draft (Andersson and Kylington) and traded for Hamilton 2016 to 2019 - Went mainly after forwards with Valimaki the lone D and Parsons the lone G So what went wrong? We simply missed. We missed with Bennett and Macdonald. Sean Monahan is trending 3rd line C in his prime. We missed with our UFA signings like Brouwer and Neal. We missed with our coaching staff. I wonder if Conroy is a better talent evaluator because he's played the game at a much higher level. In my opinion, talent evaluation that might be all we need to improve. BT, followed a good blueprint for a rebuild. I'm not sure its as simple as that personally. They way I look at it is they never drafted a number on center during their rebuild and never drafted an elite player. I do admit that was supposed to be Bennett, but in looking back I do think that was a scouting miss on a lot of fronts. Bennett is a good player but wasn't worthy of the pre draft praise, something I know you were on early. So while there are certainly decisions in there that they deserve critique for I don't think they missed so much as they didn't time it right. But there is also no question this organization is still paying for some awful drafting pre 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, cross16 said: They had no choice. Would you prefer they had waited him out and got nothing? Again, obviously not. The franchise could work on being a more desirable and attractive franchise to want to play for though. They invested a ton of time and $ into developing Fox. Maybe Adam Fox already saw the dysfunction from a mile away and made a career decision. He hasn’t been the only disgruntled prospect we’ve dealt with recently. There’s obviously a trend , where we aren’t properly developing some of our prospects and the ones we do give chances to, don’t even want to stick around here long term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, rickross said: Again, obviously not. The franchise could work on being a more desirable and attractive franchise to want to play for though. They invested a ton of time and $ into developing Fox. Maybe Adam Fox already saw the dysfunction from a mile away and made a career decision. He hasn’t been the only disgruntled prospect we’ve dealt with recently. There’s obviously a trend , where we aren’t properly developing some of our prospects and the ones we do give chances to, don’t even want to stick around here long term. Like relocation? Stuff like Fox happens to a lot of teams. The Blackhawks were a 2 time champion when Kevin Hayes decided not to sign there, the Ducks were a solid team when Shultz spurned them, Fox didn't want to be a Hurricane either. Other players drafted have signed even Gaudreau when everyone thought he wouldn't, we've also signed highly sought after college free agents like Mackey and Foo over the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 19 minutes ago, rickross said: Again, obviously not. The franchise could work on being a more desirable and attractive franchise to want to play for though. They invested a ton of time and $ into developing Fox. Maybe Adam Fox already saw the dysfunction from a mile away and made a career decision. He hasn’t been the only disgruntled prospect we’ve dealt with recently. There’s obviously a trend , where we aren’t properly developing some of our prospects and the ones we do give chances to, don’t even want to stick around here long term. An NCAA player doesn't even get to come to a development camp unless he pays for it himself. We have little control of his development prior to signing. Fox found the way to play for the team he wanted to sign with. He managed to do it without playing 4 years in college. That is pretty unusual. Wouldn't play here, wouldn't play in NC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 30 minutes ago, rickross said: Again, obviously not. The franchise could work on being a more desirable and attractive franchise to want to play for though. They invested a ton of time and $ into developing Fox. Maybe Adam Fox already saw the dysfunction from a mile away and made a career decision. He hasn’t been the only disgruntled prospect we’ve dealt with recently. There’s obviously a trend , where we aren’t properly developing some of our prospects and the ones we do give chances to, don’t even want to stick around here long term. Who else? For as "disgruntled" as you think Bennett (assuming this is the player you will suggest) was he stuck around here for 7 years, never once pouted about it, and still expressed disappointment when he left. And Carolina has turned into one of the better run franchise in the league and Fox also said no to them. Sometimes players, especially ones like Fox with high end skill, have leverage and the desire to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketdoctor Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, rickross said: Again, obviously not. The franchise could work on being a more desirable and attractive franchise to want to play for though. They invested a ton of time and $ into developing Fox. Maybe Adam Fox already saw the dysfunction from a mile away and made a career decision. He hasn’t been the only disgruntled prospect we’ve dealt with recently. There’s obviously a trend , where we aren’t properly developing some of our prospects and the ones we do give chances to, don’t even want to stick around here long term. Did we really invest a ton of time & $ into Fox? And for us to be more desirable to play for? How would you do this if you were GM? A lot of people on here want to abandon a lifelong Flame and captain and trade him for peanuts. That sort of treatment would really be helpful in making us more desirable to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 23 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said: Did we really invest a ton of time & $ into Fox? And for us to be more desirable to play for? How would you do this if you were GM? A lot of people on here want to abandon a lifelong Flame and captain and trade him for peanuts. That sort of treatment would really be helpful in making us more desirable to play for. There are valid business reasons for trading Gio. Tough decision to make. We let Brodie go for nothing, and there wasn't this much division about it. Not saying it's right or wrong to do, but you have to look at what makes the team better and not always decide based on nostalgia. Some have questioned his leadership or leading the team on the ice. Others have said you sometimes have to make moves before the value drops to zero. Others have said he's a lifelong Flame and should be here as long as he wants to play. Overall, there are very few teams that don't make these decisions every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zima Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 Once we let players like Theo and Iggy for for peanuts it showed we are not a franchise that cares about Loyalty as far as I'm concerned it is sad but true I feel letting Gio go after the yrs of service he has given us is proof we have no loyalty just listen to you guys its business what if Gio would like to stay and finish his career here. In your minds you could care a less even though getting anything of value for him is slim to none you would rather take the bag of pucks rather than letting him retire where it all started. So lets trade him to Toronto where he can retire in his home town and get fleeced just like they have a dozen times before. We give Bennett away for at least one player who will never see the NHL probably not even see the AHL and a 2nd that might make it to the A that 2nd is like picking the top 3rd round pick Panthers were pretty good this yr. Any way doesn't matter given away Gio is a waste of a Franchise player who deserves to be respected and should retire here unless his desire is to retire in Toronto if thats the case then give him away for the bag of pucks we will get for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, zima said: Once we let players like Theo and Iggy for for peanuts it showed we are not a franchise that cares about Loyalty as far as I'm concerned it is sad but true I feel letting Gio go after the yrs of service he has given us is proof we have no loyalty just listen to you guys its business what if Gio would like to stay and finish his career here. In your minds you could care a less even though getting anything of value for him is slim to none you would rather take the bag of pucks rather than letting him retire where it all started. So lets trade him to Toronto where he can retire in his home town and get fleeced just like they have a dozen times before. We give Bennett away for at least one player who will never see the NHL probably not even see the AHL and a 2nd that might make it to the A that 2nd is like picking the top 3rd round pick it is so high what will that pick be any one know Panthers were pretty high good this yr. Any way doesn't matter given away Gio is a waste of a Franchise player who deserves to be respected and should retire here unless his desire is to retire in Toronto if thats the case then give him away for the bag of pucks we will get for him. Loyalty is always a two way street. Theo was at a bad time economically for the team and Iggy was at a time the franchise was in a steep decline, both players were primed to walk away as free agents, at the same time there are still fans bitter towards Fleury towards some of his post career stuff, and still fans bitter to Iggy for using his control in the trade (even though Matt Bartkowski was the only piece in either trade to do anything and he still wasn't much). As far as Gio goes I'll always be appreciative of the player and person to this club and city. Some of the criticisms he's faced this year here I believe are unwarranted, most of us should've assumed some fans can't seem to move past the fact that he wasn't going to keep up a Norris level in the late 30's, but also the team hasn't done him a solid by easing him into a lesser role. I don't believe he has much value in a trade unless he has a solid first half next year to increase his value as a rental, if he finishes his career a Flame I'm fine with that too but would like to see his eventual replacements given a fair shot to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 What is mind blowing is you keep a GM just because. The guy has failed to create a contending team period, ship him out along with his training staff and scouts. We have a roster that has to many smaller players that can't play a style that wins championships. I am not saying there is no room for smaller players but we have 4 forwards thats 2-3 to many. As for being a terrible destination to come to we are not Edmonton. However players will sign to play with Mc Jesus and Dry Saddle, becasue you have players to build around. I remember Florda, San Jose, Dallas, LA were destinations that players belived were crap places to play, now they are sought after. Perceptions can change, create a place or destination of desire and players will beg to get here. Calgary is much like Buffalo a team no one wants to belong to. The dysfuntional states of this organization is just mind bending. You have billioaires who have made billions and think owning a team but are not smart enough to hire the correct individuals to move you in the right direction. Simply goes to show that being succussful in one area doesnt translate to success in another based on your net worth. This maybe speculation but if the owners are micro managers as indicated than this falls on there shoulders. If they ran their companiesa as insufficiently as this, they would not be where they are today. For me Sutter is a good coach, but this club is not a Sutter club, Vegas, Florida, Tampa, Avalance, St Louis are Sutter clubs large fast and gritty. When you compare our club to the top teams in the league its apparently obvious we are a loooong ways away from contending anything other than a qucik exit or a top 10 draft choice. Flames slogan should be our club is just OK and we are good with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 The player the Flames received in the Theo trade wound up playing more games for the franchise than Fleury and currently #3 in games played for the Flames. I'm not sure I buy into loyalty because if anything this club has been TOO loyal, but Fleury being traded for peanuts is not a very valid argument IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, tmac70 said: This maybe speculation but if the owners are micro managers as indicated than this falls on there shoulders. If they ran their companiesa as insufficiently as this, they would not be where they are today. For me Sutter is a good coach, but this club is not a Sutter club, Vegas, Florida, Tampa, Avalance, St Louis are Sutter clubs large fast and gritty. When you compare our club to the top teams in the league its apparently obvious we are a loooong ways away from contending anything other than a qucik exit or a top 10 draft choice. Flames slogan should be our club is just OK and we are good with that. The Flames avg height is 13th in the league ahead of both the Avs, Lighting and Panthers. They are 12th in avg weight. Again ahead of both the Avs and Panthers. The Panthers are one of the smallest cubs in the league. https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/nhl/teams-physical-stats/2020-2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 2 hours ago, sak22 said: Source??? I don't recall anything of that nature, changes to the roster of course because it always happens, but don't remember Brad ever saying he's looking to move a core piece, so I don't know why you keep going on about last offseason, it was a Satoshi Nakamototy market if we made a move you'd be sitting here today criticizing that trade. I guess thats the life of a GM, everything you do is wrong, everything you don't do is wrong and the grass is always greener on the other side. it was in interviews with BT at seasons end. He talked about assessing the situation and that they would consider options, that there could be core changes. Do I need to save all radio links when I listen to them live or on podcasts? I should keep a library of every radio hit I listen to... hey, it’s part of the business. You’re a public figure in a prominent role where results matter. When the results aren’t there you’re going to get scrutinized. Poor BT is getting criticized for the team he built for 6 years, some say the 1st year was BB’s doing... he has done good, but I think just as much bad. We are looking at a team that is weak mentally, weak physically, and weak strategically. i think he probably would have done a lot better had he went a more patient route, but then, the early misses in the rebuild are really what has hurt the team now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 2 hours ago, cross16 said: They had no choice. Would you prefer they had waited him out and got nothing? I preferred they waited and got a 2nd rounder for him rather than throwing him in the deal that sent him away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, cross16 said: The Flames avg height is 13th in the league ahead of both the Avs, Lighting and Panthers. They are 12th in avg weight. Again ahead of both the Avs and Panthers. The Panthers are one of the smallest cubs in the league. https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/nhl/teams-physical-stats/2020-2021 So would your saying a Hubbereau/ Barkov are equal to a Gaudreau/ Lucic how about Dry saddle/ Mc Jesus vs Mags/ Lucic, or Mckinnion/Landeskog Or we can go Point/ Kucherov vs Mags/Dube, it all symantics. The facts are we are slightly above average height adn weight and have below average play. Trying to justify anything other than this club is been poorly constructred and ran is just a switch and bait game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, sak22 said: As far as Gio goes I'll always be appreciative of the player and person to this club and city. Some of the criticisms he's faced this year here I believe are unwarranted, most of us should've assumed some fans can't seem to move past the fact that he wasn't going to keep up a Norris level in the late 30's, but also the team hasn't done him a solid by easing him into a lesser role. I don't believe he has much value in a trade unless he has a solid first half next year to increase his value as a rental, if he finishes his career a Flame I'm fine with that too but would like to see his eventual replacements given a fair shot to develop. He was signed to what you might call a retirement term. Long enough to lower the AAV because he was reportedly looking for much more. Gave him a M-NTC in his final two years as a cherry on top. Are we expecting this past year and next year to be "young and fresh"? Many here have no problem trading Monahan, Gaudreau or Tkachuk because they want to improve the team. And yet, these are players with an "A" or have provided the team with some hope at competing in the NHL. Trades have to make sense, but you can't just be the retirement plan for a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 36 minutes ago, cross16 said: The player the Flames received in the Theo trade wound up playing more games for the franchise than Fleury and currently #3 in games played for the Flames. I'm not sure I buy into loyalty because if anything this club has been TOO loyal, but Fleury being traded for peanuts is not a very valid argument IMO. it depends on how you evaluate the pieces. There were a lot included in the deal. All of them were average with the exception of Reggie. I wouldn’t say Reggie and Theo were an even trade at anytime. Theo was a top of the line difference maker and Reggie a very good shut down guy. No disrespect to Reggie, but they just aren’t equal. you’re right, we got a very good longer term player in the deal. He helped the team for a long time and was very good at defending. His offence wasn’t terrible but it wasn’t game breaking either. I guess the trade off was less goals for, for less goals against. Not sure which is more important. Need to keep the puck out of the net, but also need to put it in more than the opponents do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, robrob74 said: it was in interviews with BT at seasons end. He talked about assessing the situation and that they would consider options, that there could be core changes. Do I need to save all radio links when I listen to them live or on podcasts? I should keep a library of every radio hit I listen to... hey, it’s part of the business. You’re a public figure in a prominent role where results matter. When the results aren’t there you’re going to get scrutinized. Poor BT is getting criticized for the team he built for 6 years, some say the 1st year was BB’s doing... he has done good, but I think just as much bad. We are looking at a team that is weak mentally, weak physically, and weak strategically. i think he probably would have done a lot better had he went a more patient route, but then, the early misses in the rebuild are really what has hurt the team now. Well, I think you need to look at what he was handed and what he managed to do. Lot's of misses, but also lots of cap problems he had to wait out or buy out. He should have walked away from Bouma, but that was a loss of an asset if he did. It turned sour though, so I fault him for the extended term he had to buy out. I'm not going to pump him up here. I will say I think he made deals he could this past off-season. There was no specific change to the core that he said was coming. It could have been moving Gio or Backlund or Monahan or Gaudreau, or all of them. There was no specific player that did poorly last year; they all had less than happy playoffs. If he was trying to move Gaudreau and the best he could get back was a late first, would anyone have been happy? In a pandemic cap world, there is only so much you can do. Add to that, the spectre of the expansion draft. Bennett was not going to be able to be protected and still might be lost to FLA. I'm sure it will be a tough choice for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, tmac70 said: So would your saying a Hubbereau/ Barkov are equal to a Gaudreau/ Lucic how about Dry saddle/ Mc Jesus vs Mags/ Lucic, or Mckinnion/Landeskog Or we can go Point/ Kucherov vs Mags/Dube, it all symantics. The facts are we are slightly above average height adn weight and have below average play. Trying to justify anything other than this club is been poorly constructred and ran is just a switch and bait game. id go further and say, Monahan at 6ft 2in plays more like a soft 5ft 6in player. Mange plays a harder game than he does... but if Monahan was able to play that way and stay healthy, he’d inflict more damage due to size and weight. I don’t think when we talk about size that it’s just size per se, we are talking about physicality as well... you can be big, but also gentle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 1 hour ago, rocketdoctor said: Did we really invest a ton of time & $ into Fox? And for us to be more desirable to play for? How would you do this if you were GM? A lot of people on here want to abandon a lifelong Flame and captain and trade him for peanuts. That sort of treatment would really be helpful in making us more desirable to play for. For sure they did. He was projecting as a top D man in college, plus he proved his ability to play the game during his team USA invites. The writing was on the wall, Fox was going to be a very good player. I’m sure the Flames sensed he wasn’t buying in and tried and ultimately failed to convinced the player. That cost $ flying around the country to watch and support a prospect, Scouts/GM were likely assigned to keep in very close contact, it’s time and $ consuming. He let us know fairly early on he wasn’t signing but we could have put that energy, time and $ in someone who actually wanted to be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sak22 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, robrob74 said: it was in interviews with BT at seasons end. He talked about assessing the situation and that they would consider options, that there could be core changes. Do I need to save all radio links when I listen to them live or on podcasts? I should keep a library of every radio hit I listen to... hey, it’s part of the business. You’re a public figure in a prominent role where results matter. When the results aren’t there you’re going to get scrutinized. Poor BT is getting criticized for the team he built for 6 years, some say the 1st year was BB’s doing... he has done good, but I think just as much bad. We are looking at a team that is weak mentally, weak physically, and weak strategically. i think he probably would have done a lot better had he went a more patient route, but then, the early misses in the rebuild are really what has hurt the team now. Yeah that doesn't sound like any sort of guarantee. We don't know what options were available, but you criticize anyway. Stand pat you criticize, make a trade and you'd probably criticize. I could go either way with keeping or moving on, I'm just not going to celebrate moving on like others like it is an automatic step forward, I don't think that is an easy job to do, some make it sound like it. 8 minutes ago, robrob74 said: I preferred they waited and got a 2nd rounder for him rather than throwing him in the deal that sent him away. And maybe Fox suffers a serious injury his junior year and that isn't on the table leading up to his senior year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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