Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[pikey7883]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I mean you could but my question would be why?

 

What's going to change and what are you hoping to get out of that move?

I wonder if Mike Futa would be capable as a POHO? He would be a good mind to add, als o has some comfortability with Sutter.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, pikey7883 said:

I wonder if Mike Futa would be capable as a POHO? He would be a good mind to add, als o has some comfortability with Sutter.

 

I would view that was very risky. Hiring a guy who has never been a GM as POHO?

 

I would get the interest in him as a GM but i'm also not that brining in a rookie GM right now is the route that I would go if i'm the Flames. I know I mentioned Tulsky and McFarland and while both are rookie GMs I think there profiles are significantly more intriguing than Mike Futa's. 

 

He'd be someone i'd be interested in only if a POHO was here. 

[The_People1]

Just now, cross16 said:

 

I mean you could but my question would be why?

 

What's going to change and what are you hoping to get out of that move?

 

Because I feel the plan was there and I approve of it.  Target #1 C and build from the G out. 

 

2013 - Thought we already drafted a #1 Center (Monahan) before he arrived

2014 - Thought we drafted another #1 Center (Bennett) and a future #1 Goalie (Macdonald)

2015 - Went D heavy in the draft (Andersson and Kylington) and traded for Hamilton

2016 to 2019 - Went mainly after forwards with Valimaki the lone D and Parsons the lone G

 

So what went wrong?

 

We simply missed.  We missed with Bennett and Macdonald.  Sean Monahan is trending 3rd line C in his prime.  We missed with our UFA signings like Brouwer and Neal.  We missed with our coaching staff.

 

I wonder if Conroy is a better talent evaluator because he's played the game at a much higher level.  In my opinion, talent evaluation that might be all we need to improve.  BT, followed a good blueprint for a rebuild.

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Because I feel the plan was there and I approve of it.  Target #1 C and build from the G out. 

 

2013 - Thought we already drafted a #1 Center (Monahan) before he arrived

2014 - Thought we drafted another #1 Center (Bennett) and a future #1 Goalie (Macdonald)

2015 - Went D heavy in the draft (Andersson and Kylington) and traded for Hamilton

2016 to 2019 - Went mainly after forwards with Valimaki the lone D and Parsons the lone G

 

So what went wrong?

 

We simply missed.  We missed with Bennett and Macdonald.  Sean Monahan is trending 3rd line C in his prime.  We missed with our UFA signings like Brouwer and Neal.  We missed with our coaching staff.

 

I wonder if Conroy is a better talent evaluator because he's played the game at a much higher level.  In my opinion, talent evaluation that might be all we need to improve.  BT, followed a good blueprint for a rebuild.

 

Fair, I only ask because I'm curious. 

 

I just wonder if anything would change. Conroy's been here the entire time so he would be part of all those decision I would assume. 

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Fair, I only ask because I'm curious. 

 

I guess my counterpoint would be Conroy's been here for all of those decisions so would we not assume he played a part and supported? I guess there is the possibility he didn't but that would seem surprising to me. 

 

I'm just not sure he would do anything differently given he's been here the entire time. If he had different thoughts then perhaps it could work. 

 

I'm sure they bounce ideas off each other but BT's got to be the final decision maker.

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm sure they bounce ideas off each other but BT's got to be the final decision maker.

 

For sure. I just have a hard time seeing a situation where Conroy would disagree with the process or on so many individual decision that would make me believe he'd do things drastically different. 

 

I guess I'm also coming from the angle of if you are choosing to move on from the GM why are you doing so? to me it's because you either disagree with his philosophy or your disagree with his approach so a change needs to be make. I have a hard time seeing an AGM from the same team being that change. 

 

perhaps i'm wrong and he has a different vision he could sell the club on, i'm just skeptical. 

[Thebrewcrew]

Really interested to see what happens with BT. I could see it going either way.

 

If they do make a change, it puts the new GM in an awkward spot. Every GM wants to pick their coach. That wouldn't be happening if they make a GM change. I think that could deter experienced candidates. 

 

In reality, I think they keep BT. I can't see ownership wanting to pay 2 GM's and 2 Head Coaches in 2021/2022. If the team makes moves to contend for next year and the team falls short, I could absolutely see a GM change. Not sure I see it this season though. 

[sak22]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

For sure. I just have a hard time seeing a situation where Conroy would disagree with the process or on so many individual decision that would make me believe he'd do things drastically different. 

 

I guess I'm also coming from the angle of if you are choosing to move on from the GM why are you doing so? to me it's because you either disagree with his philosophy or your disagree with his approach so a change needs to be make. I have a hard time seeing an AGM from the same team being that change. 

 

perhaps i'm wrong and he has a different vision he could sell the club on, i'm just skeptical. 

They may have the same philosophy or vision, but Conroy could have different skills in negotiations, perhaps create stronger relations with other GM's (oddly he's played with 3 current GM's) and agents.  I don't want to say Brad's contract negotiations or trades have been all bad, just wonder if Conroy could bring anything different to the table.  Not saying I'm for the suggestion or against it

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

With the season now over the wait begins on what the Flames will do with Treliving. I'd be surprised if he goes but people have been fired for less so I think it's a possibility and it wouldn't shock me if the Bennett situation puts the owners over the top. For me though, I hate the idea of firing people unless you know who that replacement is and can be do things better. I'm not as optimistic as some that it's going to be easy to upgrade over Treliving.

 

 

It's possible that we have a problem above Treliving, and by possible I mean highly likely.    Either way I don't think he's the right fit.   But whether we are capable of finding the right fit, is a very valid concern.

 

In such an event, yeah.  I agree.   Solving Treliving doesn't solve the problem.    So in that case maybe we look higher.

 

Unrealistic?   Actually everything any of us has ever suggested or asked for in here is unrealistic so really that's a wash lol.

 

Maybe there is an ownership issue.  If so, I don't think it's all the owners collectively.   More likely one owner in particular who has meddled too much.    If that' the case, the other owners need to deal with that.

[MP5029]

I think BT needs to be very transparent with his plans for this coming season, and do it soon show the fans he has a plan...show/tell us somethings let us know  if your stubborn blinded and going to stay pat, tinker or burning to the ground, but BT needs to do something to keep the fans faith in this team cause it’s paper thin.

 

we are not looking for particular details nor will giving some insight hurt the game plan but the fans need a vision to get behind cause this year really killed it for many long time dire hard fans.

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I think BT needs to be very transparent with his plans for this coming season, and do it soon show the fans he has a plan...show/tell us somethings let us know  if your stubborn blinded and going to stay pat, tinker or burning to the ground, but BT needs to do something to keep the fans faith in this team cause it’s paper thin.

 

we are not looking for particular details nor will giving some insight hurt the game plan but the fans need a vision to get behind cause this year really killed it for many long time dire hard fans.

 

I think it’s tough. They’ve been saying things like, “this is a good team,” since around the time the hockey talk pundits were asking if the flames were built for the playoffs. Like we need to be convinced because their play on the ice sure doesn’t prove it. “It’s a good team and a tough year!” “Adversity, will do this team good, cuz they’re a good team that hasn’t gone through any.” They’re a good team... I don’t buy it.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

I think BT needs to be very transparent with his plans for this coming season, and do it soon show the fans he has a plan...show/tell us somethings let us know  if your stubborn blinded and going to stay pat, tinker or burning to the ground, but BT needs to do something to keep the fans faith in this team cause it’s paper thin.

 

we are not looking for particular details nor will giving some insight hurt the game plan but the fans need a vision to get behind cause this year really killed it for many long time dire hard fans.

 

I'm not sure what you expect a GM to tell you.

Did he say that he wasn't going to accept an anchor from a team for a good player.

Sharks were swimming aorund looking for vctims this year.

 

You want him to tell you he's trading Monahan or Tkachuk or Gio or Gaudreau or Lindholm?

Seems like a weird way to run a business.

Tell everyone what your plans are so the fans know what you are going to do.

The market will determine what direction he goes in.

Setting up fan expectations is a recipe for disaster.

 

You will know by the end of FA and the start of the season what pieces are the new core and what we have added to take a step forward.

[MP5029]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure what you expect a GM to tell you.

Did he say that he wasn't going to accept an anchor from a team for a good player.

Sharks were swimming aorund looking for vctims this year.

 

You want him to tell you he's trading Monahan or Tkachuk or Gio or Gaudreau or Lindholm?

Seems like a weird way to run a business.

Tell everyone what your plans are so the fans know what you are going to do.

The market will determine what direction he goes in.

Setting up fan expectations is a recipe for disaster.

 

You will know by the end of FA and the start of the season what pieces are the new core and what we have added to take a step forward.

No that’s not what I said, but I think he should give fans an idea of what he’s open to...like for example everyone is traceable, we are in a full rebuild or we are just going to modify the core some...untouchables stuff like that.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

No that’s not what I said, but I think he should give fans an idea of what he’s open to...like for example everyone is traceable, we are in a full rebuild or we are just going to modify the core some...untouchables stuff like that.

 

last off season they said there would be changes in the core and they didn’t do anything about it. It made it worse for fans considering we had an expectation that something was going to happen.

 

i guess the change was in goalie and D, some forwards sprinkled in and we got what we got. I thought the non changes to the forward core players was a disappointment.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

No that’s not what I said, but I think he should give fans an idea of what he’s open to...like for example everyone is traceable, we are in a full rebuild or we are just going to modify the core some...untouchables stuff like that.

 

I got what you meant, just that you are not likely to hear anything.

In Buffalo, do you know what to expect?

And that's with a team where two top players have basicially severed their ties with the team.

 

As the summer goes on, you may have a better idea.

A lot of things can and will happen between now and then.

Expansion draft, pre draft trades, FA, teams not trading during the playoffs that will make changes.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

last off season they said there would be changes in the core and they didn’t do anything about it. It made it worse for fans considering we had an expectation that something was going to happen.

 

i guess the change was in goalie and D, some forwards sprinkled in and we got what we got. I thought the non changes to the forward core players was a disappointment.

 

You can make changes if values are threre.

I don't know if he actually said that or it was reported by media as something he was considering.

 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

You can make changes if values are threre.

I don't know if he actually said that or it was reported by media as something he was considering.

 

I think he said that he was going to consider his options and assess, as always said, going to do that all the time. It was insinuated by him that he wasn’t happy with how  the core played and that there would be changes. 
 

there were some changes... Brodie and Hamonic left and a lot of adds...

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I'm not sure what you expect a GM to tell you.

 

I want him to tell me he's retiring.

 

Quote

Did he say that he wasn't going to accept an anchor from a team for a good player.

Sharks were swimming aorund looking for vctims this year.

 

Poor management will always be victims.  Always.

 

Quote

You want him to tell you he's trading Monahan or Tkachuk or Gio or Gaudreau or Lindholm?

 

Since 2018.    In the case of Gio, further back.

 

Quote

Seems like a weird way to run a business.

 

We would be the most promising team in the NHL right now if he had done it.

 

Quote

Tell everyone what your plans are so the fans know what you are going to do.

The market will determine what direction he goes in.

 

When you have no direction of your own you will just sort of flow with the market like a swimmer caught in a riptide, yes.

 

Quote

Setting up fan expectations is a recipe for disaster.

 

Which is where we are now after promising a strong playoff team most recently...two months ago?  when we hired Sutter?   He always thinks he's found the bottleneck but you can never quite grasp the bottleneck, when you are the bottleneck.

 

Quote

You will know by the end of FA and the start of the season what pieces are the new core and what we have added to take a step forward.

 

We will only Start to know what we have when Treliving is let go.   Until then we won't have any idea what we have.   Ie., Bennett.

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You can make changes if values are threre.

I don't know if he actually said that or it was reported by media as something he was considering.

 

 

When the value was there, most on here argued against the changes.   We had a small LW, top 10 in the NHL yet totally ineffective in the playoffs.

 

Most obvious trade on an already smallish team, zero logic in keeping him.

 

But we kept him.

 

And that kind of strategy is why we don't have much value left.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

When the value was there, most on here argued against the changes.   We had a small LW, top 10 in the NHL yet totally ineffective in the playoffs.

 

Most obvious trade on an already smallish team, zero logic in keeping him.

 

But we kept him.

 

And that kind of strategy is why we don't have much value left.

yup! I agree! It’s tough to trade the guy who stirs the drink, but when the straw is easy to take out of the drink due to the rest of the lineup, something has gotta give. His 99 point season was probably the year to make the move as it was obvious that if you stop Johnny, you stop the Flames. But that’s because of Monahan being predictable. If Johnny had a mobile C he’d be getting 100 annually. 
 

I was hoping for changes then. That year I went to a Flames game here in Van and the way a rookie Pettersson singlehandedly dismantled our team, to me was when it was painfully obvious this team was no good. To me, it verified what I already thought about them that year. 
 

but you’re right, when will the value ever be there? Or when do you have the guts, as a GM to trade a guy when the value is there? 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I want him to tell me he's retiring.

 

All you need to say, the rest is noise.

Try using the entire quote to make a point, instead of using one line and making it fit your argument.

Better yet, just quit quoting and just post your opinion on it's own.

 

[rocketdoctor]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

When the value was there, most on here argued against the changes.   We had a small LW, top 10 in the NHL yet totally ineffective in the playoffs.

 

Most obvious trade on an already smallish team, zero logic in keeping him.

 

But we kept him.

 

And that kind of strategy is why we don't have much value left.

 

JH sells shirts, and keeps a good chunk of the fan base engaged and excited.

 

Not many businesses would sell/trade away one of their best marketing opportunities. 

 

The fan base would have been apoloetic if they had traded him after his 99 point season. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

JH sells shirts, and keeps a good chunk of the fan base engaged and excited.

 

Not many businesses would sell/trade away one of their best marketing opportunities. 

 

The fan base would have been apoloetic if they had traded him after his 99 point season. 

 

You're right.  You're absolutely right.

 

But they didn't sell enough JG merchandise to make up for zero playoff success for the next 10 years which is where this is headed (and halfway there).

 

It was a businesses decision over a hockey decision and those usually end up turning into bad business decisions. 

 

I don't deny that their decision was expected but that doesn't put it beyond criticism. 

[sak22]

14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

last off season they said there would be changes in the core and they didn’t do anything about it. It made it worse for fans considering we had an expectation that something was going to happen.

 

i guess the change was in goalie and D, some forwards sprinkled in and we got what we got. I thought the non changes to the forward core players was a disappointment.

Source???  I don't recall anything of that nature, changes to the roster of course because it always happens, but don't remember Brad ever saying he's looking to move a core piece, so I don't know why you keep going on about last offseason, it was a Satoshi Nakamototy market if we made a move you'd be sitting here today criticizing that trade.  I guess thats the life of a GM, everything you do is wrong, everything you don't do is wrong and the grass is always greener on the other side.

[rickross]

On 5/11/2021 at 5:13 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Because I feel the plan was there and I approve of it.  Target #1 C and build from the G out. 

 

2013 - Thought we already drafted a #1 Center (Monahan) before he arrived

2014 - Thought we drafted another #1 Center (Bennett) and a future #1 Goalie (Macdonald)

2015 - Went D heavy in the draft (Andersson and Kylington) and traded for Hamilton

2016 to 2019 - Went mainly after forwards with Valimaki the lone D and Parsons the lone G

 

So what went wrong?

 

We simply missed.  We missed with Bennett and Macdonald.  Sean Monahan is trending 3rd line C in his prime.  We missed with our UFA signings like Brouwer and Neal.  We missed with our coaching staff.

 

I wonder if Conroy is a better talent evaluator because he's played the game at a much higher level.  In my opinion, talent evaluation that might be all we need to improve.  BT, followed a good blueprint for a rebuild.

That sure is a lot of misses! Especially at a critical time during a rebuild. That much consistency in misses should reflect the many cracks within the Flames philosophy of drafting and developing let alone our basic genetic makeup of this team. Either we just have extremely poor luck or the formulas we are using to rate, draft and sign our players is wrong! 
 

Flames have had too much of a yo-yo philosophy during this rebuild. We were young, then we were truculent, then we we fast, small and skilled...now we are searching for that magical balance but missing some key parts still. Sam Bennet and Adam Fox are perfect examples of what this franchise is failing at. We might get it right sometimes , but it’s as if players never quite reach their full potential while they are Flames.