Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[The_Tribal Chief]

I Dont See in Why you destroy your top line when it is the most consistant most of the time When  there Contracts Come up for renewal wait till then Dont Ship them off before that time has come

[jjgallow]

 

So I listened to Brad Treliving's interview.

 

While not a BT fan, I have to say, it was good.  He said all the right things.  If I had to give that speech I would not have changed a thing.    He's also right to take accountability for it.   But the million dollar question is if he really knows why.

 

He's not entirely responsible for slumps.  Which the Flames are in.   Every team has slumps and the players themselves have to be responsible for getting out of it.

 

What Treliving is accountable for, is giving away Hamilton and Adam Fox:  basically what would now be our entire first line of D, for a bag of pucks.

 

Yeah he's responsible for taking out an entire first line.    For dismantling what would have been the most formidable defense in the NHL.

 

He's responsible for giving out first-round draft picks like leftover halloween candy.   Like we didn't need prospects or any kind of future hope.

 

He's responsible for taking Way too long to address our goaltending development system (and even now, 80% of the issues are unaddressed), ensuring one of the bleakest futures in net, despite coming out of a rebuild.     This is a sort of "you had one job" kind of thing.  The one thing you Don't screw up coming out of a rebuild.

 

He's responsible for constructing a predictably passive and diminutive forward line which gets shut down in playoff hockey, and doing nothing about it.    Admittedly we have two fantastic players on LW.   But it is entirely unbalanced to have all your best talent at the least-valuable position in hockey.  All you have to do in playoff hockey is focus all efforts on our LW, and it's done.    There's no balance on the other side.  

 

 

Having said that, Treliving is Right to Bunker down.  Of the available choices the best one to make is to work with what we have.    At least, until TDL.     He will be pressured at that time to fix this by sacrificing out future.  Luckily, I don't think we have the cap space for it.    His choices will be to:

 

Give into that pressure and sacrifice our future

Invest in our future and hope he has enough latitude to do it

Do nothing

 

Will be interesting.  

[travel_dude]

Is Fox in CAR now?

No, he did not want to play for them nor the Flames.

Hamilton was traded with Ferland for two players that will be with the Flames for a long time.

So, I agree that we gave up a very good player for a very good forward and a decent future #2 D-man.

 

The other things he did are debateable.

I don't like his trades much.

DRafting has been good.

[cross16]

“Hamilton and Fox for a bag of pucks”

 

no need to keep reading after that.

[jjgallow]

32 minutes ago, cross16 said:

“Hamilton and Fox for a bag of pucks”

 

no need to keep reading after that.

 

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Is Fox in CAR now?

No, he did not want to play for them nor the Flames.

Hamilton was traded with Ferland for two players that will be with the Flames for a long time.

So, I agree that we gave up a very good player for a very good forward and a decent future #2 D-man.

 

well....  Two elite Dmen, more accurately, for one very good forward  (Elias), to be precise.   Is all anyone will remember from the trade.  And BT kind of fluked out on Elias but we give him the benefit of doubt.   But it's still a 2 elite players for one good player deal.   IMHO the Flames had every ability to get full market value for Adam Fox so what happened after is neither here nor there.

 

Quote

The other things he did are debateable.

I don't like his trades much.

DRafting has been good.

 

yup.  and drafting has been good.  but it was good before him too, he just didn't screw it up.  

[89Again]

I think losing Ferland and Engelland has had a big hit but I have expected more from Hanifin.

[cross16]

57 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

could also find the several other posts where I say how I was wrong about Lindholm. 
But even if I didn’t like the trade (and I still don’t love it) “bag of pucks” was never accurate and a bad phrase to use. It just shoes a big biases And confirms why I don’t feel it necessary to keep reading. 

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, 89Again said:

I think losing Ferland and Engelland has had a big hit but I have expected more from Hanifin.

 

Ya to be honest, Hanifin has been disappointing.  There's a lot of tools but he can't seem to put it all together.

 

He's too vanilla.  He's a great skater but doesn't have elite instincts.  Can't shut down elite talent.  Not physical enough for his size.  Has a hard shot but doesn't use it enough.

 

Hamilton has always been an underrated defender and dating as far back as I remember, I have defended his defense.  I have always thought Hamilton hurt his own team after he wins the battle, he does high risk passes and low reward moves with the puck.  It looks like he's smartened up in Carolina.  And what you're left with is a stud defender.

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

could also find the several other posts where I say how I was wrong about Lindholm. 
But even if I didn’t like the trade (and I still don’t love it) “bag of pucks” was never accurate and a bad phrase to use. It just shoes how incredible biases you are and confirms why I don’t feel it necessary to keep reading. 

 

you're right, I should have been more mature and posted that I'm "furious" 

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya to be honest, Hanifin has been disappointing.  There's a lot of tools but he can't seem to put it all together.

 

He's too vanilla.  He's a great skater but doesn't have elite instincts.  Can't shut down elite talent.  Not physical enough for his size.  Has a hard shot but doesn't use it enough.

 

Hamilton has always been an underrated defender and dating as far back as I remember, I have defended his defense.  I have always thought Hamilton hurt his own team after he wins the battle, he does high risk passes and low reward moves with the puck.  It looks like he's smartened up in Carolina.  And what you're left with is a stud defender.

 

Lindholm was one pleasant surprise of this trade.   An underrated prospect who showed incredible superstar promise who just couldn't put it all together.  Came over here and it just worked.     Not at superstar level but very good player level for sure.

 

For every bit that Lindholm was a positive, Hanifin was infinately a dissapointment, and more.   He came here as a high-risk prospect with massive gaps in his development.   This was a known, and this was why the trade was so unpopular imho.

 

In that our worst fears have been realized and we have sacrificed, well,  two young elite first-liners (maybe even a Norris winner) for one second-liner.  A very good second-line center.

 

But it's a killer.

[89Again]

Just not sure what the deal was with Hamilton in the dressing room?  I know he got points but I was not a big fan when he was a Flame.  The brother thing was strange if it really was a brother thing as reported.  Lindy is really good and still young, RW who also plays centre I would think is quite valuable.

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Lindholm was one pleasant surprise of this trade.   An underrated prospect who showed incredible superstar promise who just couldn't put it all together.  Came over here and it just worked.     Not at superstar level but very good player level for sure.

 

For every bit that Lindholm was a positive, Hanifin was infinately a dissapointment, and more.   He came here as a high-risk prospect with massive gaps in his development.   This was a known, and this was why the trade was so unpopular imho.

 

In that our worst fears have been realized and we have sacrificed, well,  two young elite first-liners (maybe even a Norris winner) for one second-liner.  A very good second-line center.

 

But it's a killer.

 

I think the lesson here is, if you don't draft RHS, then you won't have any.  I get the BPA argument but I'm beginning to be far pro-Best-Trade-Value-Available.

 

Draft RHS RD and RHS RW.  It's so easy to trade them for LHS anything position afterwards.  We had no RHS RW so we had to give up Hamilton to get one thinking Brodano was good enough to carry us.

 

We if had all these RHS RW coming up the system then there would be no need to trade for Lindholm.

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think the lesson here is, if you don't draft RHS, then you won't have any.  I get the BPA argument but I'm beginning to be far pro-Best-Trade-Value-Available.

 

Draft RHS RD and RHS RW.  It's so easy to trade them for LHS anything position afterwards.  We had no RHS RW so we had to give up Hamilton to get one thinking Brodano was good enough to carry us.

 

We if had all these RHS RW coming up the system then there would be no need to trade for Lindholm.

 

Say it ain't so

 

BPA!  BPA!  BPA!  

 

I will admit, I caught myself suggesting we draft Yaroslav Askarov in the first round, but that is only after years of desperation and he very likely will be the BPA...I digress.

 

To be fair, we had Hamiltion.  And, we didn't draft him.

 

Maybe the message is, if you have a potential future Norris-trophy winning RD, maybe don't give him away from a bag of something slightly more valuable than pucks (is that better).

 

But how on earth did we ever get to the point where we needed that lesson?  Is the question.

 

 

p.s....we could have another.  But we'd have to cut the cord with Gaudreau and maybe more.  For this reason, I don't regret drafting Gaudreau despite having no needs at this position.  As an example.  I don't think drafting is our problem, at least not anymore.  It's knowing what to do next.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Is Fox in CAR now?

No, he did not want to play for them nor the Flames.

Hamilton was traded with Ferland for two players that will be with the Flames for a long time.

So, I agree that we gave up a very good player for a very good forward and a decent future #2 D-man.

 

The other things he did are debateable.

I don't like his trades much.

DRafting has been good.

 

I don’t dispute him not wanting to play there or here, I dispute just throwing him into a deal. I thought we could get more by doing a separate deal for him. I think a 2nd or 3rd rounder is more than what we ended up with, which was nothing. 
 

if Carolina says no, i walk away. 
 

I feel

Ferland = Hanifin

Hamilton > Lindholm
 

Fox Thrown in, we lost the deal. 
 

 

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Lindholm was one pleasant surprise of this trade.   An underrated prospect who showed incredible superstar promise who just couldn't put it all together.  Came over here and it just worked.     Not at superstar level but very good player level for sure.

 

For every bit that Lindholm was a positive, Hanifin was infinately a dissapointment, and more.   He came here as a high-risk prospect with massive gaps in his development.   This was a known, and this was why the trade was so unpopular imho.

 

In that our worst fears have been realized and we have sacrificed, well,  two young elite first-liners (maybe even a Norris winner) for one second-liner.  A very good second-line center.

 

But it's a killer.

 

You rate players a bit weirdly.

Fox is elite?

3rd pairing D on a team that is where it belongs.

His ceiling is Barrie, if even that.

 

But your inflamatory posts are alwys appreciated.

 

Basically, the Canes got one season of Ferland out of the deal.

Dougie is a very good offensive player still apt to take penalties over making good defensive plays.

 

Ferland is a good player with (unfortunately) one head shot away from retirement.

Was crushing it in CAR and still only met came close to a career season.

Priced himself out of CAR and ended up taking a bath to play an injury riddled season in VAN.

Would easily been welcomed here, but I worry about his health.

 

The trade didn;t hurt us.

We ended up taking a bath on the Lucic deal just to get rid of a lousy UFA signing.

Ferland and no Lucic.

Neal traded for anything.

 

Complain about a trade that actually made us worse.  

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You rate players a bit weirdly.

Fox is elite?

3rd pairing D on a team that is where it belongs.

His ceiling is Barrie, if even that.

 

But your inflamatory posts are alwys appreciated.

 

Basically, the Canes got one season of Ferland out of the deal.

Dougie is a very good offensive player still apt to take penalties over making good defensive plays.

 

Ferland is a good player with (unfortunately) one head shot away from retirement.

Was crushing it in CAR and still only met came close to a career season.

Priced himself out of CAR and ended up taking a bath to play an injury riddled season in VAN.

Would easily been welcomed here, but I worry about his health.

 

The trade didn;t hurt us.

We ended up taking a bath on the Lucic deal just to get rid of a lousy UFA signing.

Ferland and no Lucic.

Neal traded for anything.

 

Complain about a trade that actually made us worse.  

 

Well if we're just debating which trade was worse I guess that's progress.

 

Sorry Hamilton was just way, way above the level of anyone else in that trade in terms of value, and gap has only increased by dramatic amounts.

 

That's it, end stop.

 

That's a bad trade right there.  An Aweful trade.    And any defenceman who actually does his job in this soft NHL does get penalties but you can clearly see he's figured out the balance in his plus/minus and playoff performance.

 

 

Adam Fox:  third pairing defencemen don't get 20 minutes in a night, this is simply a matter of your evaluation being out-dated and mine being a tad early.  Matters not, cause of above.

 

The trade wrecked us.

 

And yeah, there's other bad trades to talk about.

[rickross]

Well don’t think anyone could have foreseen so much drama surrounding the Flames this year. This BP situation is untenable, the more that comes out the more it’s starting to fall back on BT and previous organizations like the Canes. I don’t believe this is the sword Treliving falls on so to speak but he’s running out of bullets here. His next coaching hire is will be the most crucial decision of his tenure. 

[JTech780]

Right now the biggest saving grace for Treliving is that he just signed a 3 year extension in the summer. If this was his final year under contract I could see him getting the axe after all that has occurred through the first quarter of the season.

 

Not saying that he deserves to be fired, just that's how these things usually go.

 

I can't see the owners wanting to pay for two GM's.

 

 

[The_People1]

51 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Right now the biggest saving grace for Treliving is that he just signed a 3 year extension in the summer. If this was his final year under contract I could see him getting the axe after all that has occurred through the first quarter of the season.

 

Not saying that he deserves to be fired, just that's how these things usually go.

 

I can't see the owners wanting to pay for two GM's.

 

Maybe that's why BP is not fired yet?  Maybe the owners are looking for a new GM and want the new GM to hire the new coach... Just tin foil hatting...

[Horsman1]

On 11/23/2019 at 11:01 AM, jjgallow said:

 

So I listened to Brad Treliving's interview.

 

While not a BT fan, I have to say, it was good.  He said all the right things.  If I had to give that speech I would not have changed a thing.    He's also right to take accountability for it.   But the million dollar question is if he really knows why.

 

He's not entirely responsible for slumps.  Which the Flames are in.   Every team has slumps and the players themselves have to be responsible for getting out of it.

 

What Treliving is accountable for, is giving away Hamilton and Adam Fox:  basically what would now be our entire first line of D, for a bag of pucks.

 

Yeah he's responsible for taking out an entire first line.    For dismantling what would have been the most formidable defense in the NHL.

 

He's responsible for giving out first-round draft picks like leftover halloween candy.   Like we didn't need prospects or any kind of future hope.

 

He's responsible for taking Way too long to address our goaltending development system (and even now, 80% of the issues are unaddressed), ensuring one of the bleakest futures in net, despite coming out of a rebuild.     This is a sort of "you had one job" kind of thing.  The one thing you Don't screw up coming out of a rebuild.

 

He's responsible for constructing a predictably passive and diminutive forward line which gets shut down in playoff hockey, and doing nothing about it.    Admittedly we have two fantastic players on LW.   But it is entirely unbalanced to have all your best talent at the least-valuable position in hockey.  All you have to do in playoff hockey is focus all efforts on our LW, and it's done.    There's no balance on the other side.  

 

 

Having said that, Treliving is Right to Bunker down.  Of the available choices the best one to make is to work with what we have.    At least, until TDL.     He will be pressured at that time to fix this by sacrificing out future.  Luckily, I don't think we have the cap space for it.    His choices will be to:

 

Give into that pressure and sacrifice our future

Invest in our future and hope he has enough latitude to do it

Do nothing

 

Will be interesting.  

I take great offence to Treliving referring to Flames fans as... you people,, if
Don Cherry gets fired for saying You People.. How is this right????

During tonight’s game I was made aware of a Tweet from former player Akim Aliu,” Treliving said. “Obviously, we were playing so I haven’t had a chance to sit down with Bill or our people internally to talk about this and get to the bottom of it. I would say we take these matters very, very seriously. So, until such time as we have a chance to speak about it internally, we obviously wanted to address you people.

 

[bosn111]

Cherry said a lot more than just "you people". The biggest issue around the whole Don Cherry firing is that people are focused on those two words and not the remainder of what was said. He I fact said "You people, who come here, and enjoy our milk and honey"... It is the whole "you people, who come here" which showed it as being about immigrants, not just the "you people". People who have focused on the simply "you people" are those who have only read the stories and did not see the actual clip. 

 

As for what Treliving said, he was far more general and was in fact likely referring to the media as "you people" as there was no further indication of who he was directing the comment at (In fact having watched the clip, I believe he nodded his head towards the media as he spoke those words.).

[ABC923]

Hanifin 2018-19: 33 points, +18, 12 PIM, 20:46 TOI, 49.9% Ozone Starts

Hamilton 2018-19: 39 points, +0, 54 PIM, 19:40 TOI, 55.6% Ozone Starts

 

This year Dougie is playing out of his mind while Hanifin has been carrying around Hamonic's corpse. I would defintitely still take Hamilton over him, but the difference is not as huge as some make out.  Hanifin provides a bit less offense and is used mostly in a defensive role, Dougie has the pop on offense but plays sheltered minutes and hurts you with too many bad penalties.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Hanifin 2018-19: 33 points, +18, 12 PIM, 20:46 TOI, 49.9% Ozone Starts

Hamilton 2018-19: 39 points, +0, 54 PIM, 19:40 TOI, 55.6% Ozone Starts

 

This year Dougie is playing out of his mind while Hanifin has been carrying around Hamonic's corpse. I would defintitely still take Hamilton over him, but the difference is not as huge as some make out.  Hanifin provides a bit less offense and is used mostly in a defensive role, Dougie has the pop on offense but plays sheltered minutes and hurts you with too many bad penalties.

 

Dougie was a guy that scored a lot but you had to carry him around.

Gio was able to excell once he was gone again.

THis is a down yeat on the team.

Nobody has looked good, so I'll hold off on Hanifin until we see sho he finished the season with.

[rickross]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:34 PM, ABC923 said:

Hanifin 2018-19: 33 points, +18, 12 PIM, 20:46 TOI, 49.9% Ozone Starts

Hamilton 2018-19: 39 points, +0, 54 PIM, 19:40 TOI, 55.6% Ozone Starts

 

This year Dougie is playing out of his mind while Hanifin has been carrying around Hamonic's corpse. I would defintitely still take Hamilton over him, but the difference is not as huge as some make out.  Hanifin provides a bit less offense and is used mostly in a defensive role, Dougie has the pop on offense but plays sheltered minutes and hurts you with too many bad penalties.

Losing Dougie was big however Hanifin is still young and I’d say he’s a better defender than Hammy was at this age. Canes lost both Fox and Ferland and watched Lindholm nearly double his pts total. It was a good trade as it’s worked out for many teams on different fronts. 

 

BT spent a lot to get Dougie, I think he’d understand when it was just time to trade the player. Hanifin won’t put up the points but he’s a piece you can build around. Dougie’s on his 3rd team already. That’s says something.