Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[DirtyDeeds]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

He's pretty solid defensively speaking as long as he cuts down on taking bad penalties.  He's got the grit, the backcheck, and speed. That alone gets him a 10 year NHL career.

 

But offensively speaking, his poor passing skills and patience with the puck disqualifies him as a legit Center at the NHL level.  At least, offensively speaking.  He could still be a good checking line Center.

 

Which then puts him on the wing if he's ever going to make it in the top 6.  On the wing, he's more the finisher.  Others find him rather than the other way around.  Given his talents around the front of the net, he should/could score 20-goals per year.

 

That's not the quality of player we would expect from a 4th overall pick but as long as we accept he is what he is, then it's okay to keep him here.  If any team gives us trade value that is equal to tap his 4th overall label then we should consider trading him.

He has very good passing skills. I have seen him thread passes right on the money a number of times.

[MAC331]

39 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

He's pretty solid defensively speaking as long as he cuts down on taking bad penalties.  He's got the grit, the backcheck, and speed. That alone gets him a 10 year NHL career.

 

But offensively speaking, his poor passing skills and patience with the puck disqualifies him as a legit Center at the NHL level.  At least, offensively speaking.  He could still be a good checking line Center.

 

Which then puts him on the wing if he's ever going to make it in the top 6.  On the wing, he's more the finisher.  Others find him rather than the other way around.  Given his talents around the front of the net, he should/could score 20-goals per year.

 

That's not the quality of player we would expect from a 4th overall pick but as long as we accept he is what he is, then it's okay to keep him here.  If any team gives us trade value that is equal to tap his 4th overall label then we should consider trading him.

This is flawed thinking IMO in so many ways. first it is like saying a 20 year old is incapable of learning which is wrong. I wouldn't say he is a poor passer but I would say he doesn't pass as often as he should. I wouldn't say he as been a finisher at either position which makes me not want to hastily "disqualify" him at any position yet. I think the search continues for the right line mates. To continue thinking of value around his 4th overall pick is long gone is a waste and you are more correct with your "he is what he is" now viewpoint. Regardless it is fair to say if we trade Bennett now it would be at a low value.

[Fins&FIre15]

At this time, Bennett gives us more than what we could get back for him...and personally, I'm tired of seeing this team lose trades.

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Playoffs 2 out of 4 years is not being ineffective in your job in the NHL. 

You really classify his 1st year his, that had Fester all over it. So than if you look at it for stats wise you like stats, he is average at 50%. When you review the whole has he put this team over the hump? For me they are stuck in neutral. Now do I release him based on being average, I would need more information. The question I need answered is what or how are you going to restructure this to make it BETTER. We may vary on GG but his Hash Rate would be gone last game of the season, for me.

 

I am on your side with Tavares, and believe we need that type of player.  That also means you need to clear some huge cap space to do it. He needs to re tool this quick if he stays, if the team is not trending in a positive manner by Jan of 2019 bye bye.

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

At this time, Bennett gives us more than what we could get back for him...and personally, I'm tired of seeing this team lose trades.

 

How about a trade with ARI that sends Brodie/Bennett for OEL and Domi?

That would be reasonable for both teams.

OK, so maybe a steal for us.

The positive for them is that they get a C/LW with all kinds of potential plus a decent D-man at a significant savings in actual dollars paid. 

 

What about OEL and Panik for Brodie/Bennett?

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

How about a trade with ARI that sends Brodie/Bennett for OEL and Domi?

That would be reasonable for both teams.

OK, so maybe a steal for us.

The positive for them is that they get a C/LW with all kinds of potential plus a decent D-man at a significant savings in actual dollars paid. 

 

What about OEL and Panik for Brodie/Bennett?

 

For some reason OEL and Giordano have a thing going.  Adding OEL would be as awkward as adding Doughty.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

For some reason OEL and Giordano have a thing going.  Adding OEL would be as awkward as adding Doughty.

 

Didn't you say something about trading Gio while his value is still high?

Just kidding.

[cross16]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:45 PM, tmac70 said:

You really classify his 1st year his, that had Fester all over it.

 

Hate this argument. If Treliving doesn't sign Hiller or Engllland they don't make the playoffs that year. Heck they don't pick up Schlemko of waivers that year they may not make the playoffs. Never makes sense to give only 1 person credit or say well "if" this or  "take out" this. 

 

And if you want to use that argument then you should also point out that Feaster's finger prints are on this season too, in a negative way. Feaster completely blew the Iggy/Jbow trades and the 2013 draft and now the Flames basically have no assets outside of Monahan to show for that. Those should have been prime assets in a rebuild and instead the Flames got next to zero. It is VERY difficult to replace those assets in a cap system.

 

Neither issue is black and white. I think there is only so much a GM can do and I think the fact remains is that he didn't exactly take over a franchise that was in the greatest of shapes so to expect it to suddenly be this marquee franchise is IMO unrealistic.

[Cowtownguy]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Hate this argument. If Treliving doesn't sign Hiller or Engllland they don't make the playoffs that year. Heck they don't pick up Schlemko of waivers that year they may not make the playoffs. Never makes sense to give only 1 person credit or say well "if" this or  "take out" this. 

 

And if you want to use that argument then you should also point out that Feaster's finger prints are on this season too, in a negative way. Feaster completely blew the Iggy/Jbow trades and the 2013 draft and now the Flames basically have no assets outside of Monahan to show for that. Those should have been prime assets in a rebuild and instead the Flames got next to zero. It is VERY difficult to replace those assets in a cap system.

 

Neither issue is black and white. I think there is only so much a GM can do and I think the fact remains is that he didn't exactly take over a franchise that was in the greatest of shapes so to expect it to suddenly be this marquee franchise is IMO unrealistic.

You forgot the Ryan O'Reilly gaff. Now that could have burned us. In fact, wasn't that why he was canned?

 

I think Feaster had his hands tied with the Iggy trade. He had a trade and Iggy thwarted that move. I thought we could have done much better with Jbow. Jeebus.

 

I agree with you about Treliving. A lot of what he is dealing with is the result of Feaster's moves. At the same time, I think he needs to own a few of the errors that he has made (i.e. Brouwer, Jagr, Hamonic, and Bouwer). That doesn't mean firing him. It means keeping track.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I think Feaster had his hands tied with the Iggy trade. He had a trade and Iggy thwarted that move. I thought we could have done much better with Jbow. Jeebus.

 

He blew the trade.  You can't get anything better than that, you don't know how to make a trade.  

[JTech780]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

You forgot the Ryan O'Reilly gaff. Now that could have burned us. In fact, wasn't that why he was canned?

 

I think Feaster had his hands tied with the Iggy trade. He had a trade and Iggy thwarted that move. I thought we could have done much better with Jbow. Jeebus.

 

I agree with you about Treliving. A lot of what he is dealing with is the result of Feaster's moves. At the same time, I think he needs to own a few of the errors that he has made (i.e. Brouwer, Jagr, Hamonic, and Bouwer). That doesn't mean firing him. It means keeping track.

 

The rumored Boston trade wasn't any better than what we ended up with. The rumoured deal with Boston was for Khoklachev (who isn't in the league), Bartkowski (shouldn't be in the league) and the 29th overall pick (1 pick after the pick we got from Pittsburgh, that pick went to Dallas and they picked Jason Dickinson). Either way you look at it Feaster blew the Iginla trade.

[CheersMan]

3 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

You forgot the Ryan O'Reilly gaff. Now that could have burned us. In fact, wasn't that why he was canned?

 

I think Feaster had his hands tied with the Iggy trade. He had a trade and Iggy thwarted that move. I thought we could have done much better with Jbow. Jeebus.

 

I agree with you about Treliving. A lot of what he is dealing with is the result of Feaster's moves. At the same time, I think he needs to own a few of the errors that he has made (i.e. Brouwer, Jagr, Hamonic, and Bouwer). That doesn't mean firing him. It means keeping track.

Feasters hands being tied is an understatement.  He had zero leverage.  He played BOS the best he could but insiders knew he only had one trade partner and that was PIT.  PIT would have known (thru Iggy’s agent or whoever) that Iggy would only accept being moved to PITS.  That would have lowered the return value to somewhere between zero and the two long shot prospects we got.  Hard to blame Feaster when PIT was offering nothing else.    

Edit:  Come to think of it, I'm guessing we'd have > 82 pts today if Feaster was still here.

[robrob74]

The Flames organization blew the Iggy deal as a whole. They were in denial for years and prolonging the inevitable only lowered his value. Plus, they didn't really watch the prospects, by doing so, they failed to notice the 2013 draft was the worst in awhile. Looking at that draft, there aren't many after the top 10 to make a difference in the NHL. We are amazing at development, so I am sure it wouldn't really change. 

 

We were about 2 - 3 years too late on dealing Iginla and company. 

[tmac70]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Hate this argument. If Treliving doesn't sign Hiller or Engllland they don't make the playoffs that year. Heck they don't pick up Schlemko of waivers that year they may not make the playoffs. Never makes sense to give only 1 person credit or say well "if" this or  "take out" this. 

 

And if you want to use that argument then you should also point out that Feaster's finger prints are on this season too, in a negative way. Feaster completely blew the Iggy/Jbow trades and the 2013 draft and now the Flames basically have no assets outside of Monahan to show for that. Those should have been prime assets in a rebuild and instead the Flames got next to zero. It is VERY difficult to replace those assets in a cap system.

 

Neither issue is black and white. I think there is only so much a GM can do and I think the fact remains is that he didn't exactly take over a franchise that was in the greatest of shapes so to expect it to suddenly be this marquee franchise is IMO unrealistic.

Do not disagree Feaster blew the trades but public knowledge his hands were tied. Did you not  advocated that Trevling's hands may have been tied with not having the first this year covered ? maybe it was the similar situation with Feaster best they could  do.  We all agree Feaster got what he deserved.

 

So Trevling brings in a few players and we make the playoffs with a bad team. So we give you the Feaster point and we wash that as all square. Whats BT's record for the past 3 years,  33% with a far better roster, that is much better than 50%.  Now if someone argues the point the roster is not better than how can any one justify BT keeps his job. Bot coach and GM have come form poor organizations with no winning records. When you don't know how to win as a franchise or scout players for a winning franchise, or coach a winning organization all you create is another losing franchise.   When my staff performs its because of them, when they do not meet expectations its on me. If you have the wrong people running your organization you go no where fast. I would love him to make a serious trade to make us better, how many actual hockey trades has he made not involving picks or prospects, zero. Is he even capable of doing one?

[cross16]

14 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Do not disagree Feaster blew the trades but public knowledge his hands were tied. Did you not  advocated that Trevling's hands may have been tied with not having the first this year covered ?

 

Not sure what you mean here because no I did not advocate Treliving's hands were tied. I do believe that its likely that the Islanders refused to accept the trade if the pick was protected, but Treliving still made the decision to make that trade knowing that. 

 

My fault as I didn't think it would turn the discussion like it did, but yes I do acknowledge that Feaster's hands were tied when it came to the Iginla trade. However, what he blew was waiting so long to trade him, not getting it in writing that Iginla would accept a trade to both Boston or Pittsburgh, and targeting the wrong players. Been pretty documented since Feaster left that his approach to a trade was very passive and to target certain players as opposed to try and drive the price up. either way yes I will agree his hands were tied it was really the Jbow trade he completely blew but that being said i'm not trying to turn this into a Feaster debate. He was a bad GM and he's gone so it's the past. 

 

14 hours ago, tmac70 said:

So Trevling brings in a few players and we make the playoffs with a bad team. So we give you the Feaster point and we wash that as all square. Whats BT's record for the past 3 years,  33% with a far better roster, that is much better than 50%.  

 

Again, I don't think you give enough credit or attention to the difficulty of the GM job and how it's not easy to just start winning. Look at some other GMs around the league and see how their first few years on the job went. 

 

14 hours ago, tmac70 said:

I would love him to make a serious trade to make us better, how many actual hockey trades has he made not involving picks or prospects, zero. Is he even capable of doing one?

 

with no research I can think of 2. Granlund for Shinkaruk and Lack for Prout.  How many hockey trades have been made in the league the last few years? Not exactly a common occurrence. 

 

End of the day I recognize i'm not going to change anyone's mind here. The summary of my thoughts are that I think we need to be more realistic about the job of an NHL GM. It's not easy and its becoming more difficult and if the answer is to fire everyone as soon there is a blip well then the franchise will go nowhere. Does Treliving need to get better? Absolutely. But I think he has shown you the traits that can make a GM successful and can make a franchise successful so let him do that and continue the job.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Not sure what you mean here because no I did not advocate Treliving's hands were tied. I do believe that its likely that the Islanders refused to accept the trade if the pick was protected, but Treliving still made the decision to make that trade knowing that. 

 

My fault as I didn't think it would turn the discussion like it did, but yes I do acknowledge that Feaster's hands were tied when it came to the Iginla trade. However, what he blew was waiting so long to trade him, not getting it in writing that Iginla would accept a trade to both Boston or Pittsburgh, and targeting the wrong players. Been pretty documented since Feaster left that his approach to a trade was very passive and to target certain players as opposed to try and drive the price up. either way yes I will agree his hands were tied it was really the Jbow trade he completely blew but that being said i'm not trying to turn this into a Feaster debate. He was a bad GM and he's gone so it's the past. 

 

 

Again, I don't think you give enough credit or attention to the difficulty of the GM job and how it's not easy to just start winning. Look at some other GMs around the league and see how their first few years on the job went. 

 

 

with no research I can think of 2. Granlund for Shinkaruk and Lack for Prout.  How many hockey trades have been made in the league the last few years? Not exactly a common occurrence. 

 

End of the day I recognize i'm not going to change anyone's mind here. The summary of my thoughts are that I think we need to be more realistic about the job of an NHL GM. It's not easy and its becoming more difficult and if the answer is to fire everyone as soon there is a blip well then the franchise will go nowhere. Does Treliving need to get better? Absolutely. But I think he has shown you the traits that can make a GM successful and can make a franchise successful so let him do that and continue the job.

Feaster is gone and whats done is done, its been 4 years. Once again I am not condemning anyone on their opinion, as everyone views things differently. Been lots of trades go down. I have been a GM in many businesses and I under stand the part all to well. I do not disagree that gut reactions sometimes over rule common sense. However, when based on results I would advocate that BT is and rightfully so be on thin ice. Firing is never fun but as I learned a long time ago, people actually fire themselves. I would venture to say BT stays but GG is a definite removal. If GG stays I could see a mutiny from the fan base. In fact, my wife and I usually make the 8 hr trip twice a year to watch games, I refused to put out $$$$ to watch a poorly coached team.

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Feaster is gone and whats done is done, its been 4 years. Once again I am not condemning anyone on their opinion, as everyone views things differently. Been lots of trades go down. I have been a GM in many businesses and I under stand the part all to well. I do not disagree that gut reactions sometimes over rule common sense. However, when based on results I would advocate that BT is and rightfully so be on thin ice. Firing is never fun but as I learned a long time ago, people actually fire themselves. I would venture to say BT stays but GG is a definite removal. If GG stays I could see a mutiny from the fan base. In fact, my wife and I usually make the 8 hr trip twice a year to watch games, I refused to put out $$$$ to watch a poorly coached team.

 

Try comparing what BT has done versus other GM's, including UFA and TDL.  I'll list a few teams:

MTL

EDM

WASH

VGK (TDL)

BOS (TDL)

OTT

 

That's a short list of teams that have made dumb decisions.  Because you have a McDavid or Ovi, I guess you are immune from being fired.

BT has made mistakes, but the team isn't ruined by them.  For every bad UFA signing, he's made good re-signings.  For every bad draft pick. he's made two good ones.

I get the part about him not making trades we want, but we may not have the player a team wants.  Would you like to see him pay multiple draft picks for Tatar?  Pay big time for Kane?  Mortgage the future for Turris or Duchene?  

 

Saying that, we shall see what he does about GG.  If he doesn't fire him, then there is a problem.

 

 

[jjgallow]

 

haven't had time to come in here and say it...

 

will be brief....

 

Hamonic...

 

Fire Treliving, said it from start it will be the end of him.

 

saw some thing up there about "hands were tied", 

 

that's a load.

 

gotta run, cheers

[CheersMan]

Second worst home record (by a whisker) in the league.  You'd have to be a tardigrade or similar to survive this disaster.

[Fins&FIre15]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:48 PM, travel_dude said:

 

How about a trade with ARI that sends Brodie/Bennett for OEL and Domi?

That would be reasonable for both teams.

OK, so maybe a steal for us.

The positive for them is that they get a C/LW with all kinds of potential plus a decent D-man at a significant savings in actual dollars paid. 

 

What about OEL and Panik for Brodie/Bennett?

 

It would probably take hamilton to get OEL and domi. I think brodie and bennett stil have quite a bit value to other GM's, but nothing that will fetch you an elite player with both of them. The problem is how much Arizona values OEL at, as opposed to how good he actually is.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, Fins&FIre15 said:

 

It would probably take hamilton to get OEL and domi. I think brodie and bennett stil have quite a bit value to other GM's, but nothing that will fetch you an elite player with both of them. The problem is how much Arizona values OEL at, as opposed to how good he actually is.

 

Domi looks like a bust.  If he's not scoring, then he's not doing anything for you... Other than petting beards, of course.

[Cowtownguy]

On April 5, 2018 at 6:20 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Domi looks like a bust.  If he's not scoring, then he's not doing anything for you... Other than petting beards, of course.

And I just don't get that. He was amazing before he hit the NHL. The guy has speed and more importantly, motivation. How can he not be successful? If nothing else, I will have praise for him just because he smacked Kesler around.

[DirtyDeeds]

53 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

And I just don't get that. He was amazing before he hit the NHL. The guy has speed and more importantly, motivation. How can he not be successful? If nothing else, I will have praise for him just because he smacked Kesler around.

Lazar has speed and motivation too....

[Cowtownguy]

19 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Lazar has speed and motivation too....

But he requires 80 feet to turn going half speed. I totally thought that he was going to light it up in the NHL. I blew that prediction. Never thought much of Lazar even at the WJC.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

And I just don't get that. He was amazing before he hit the NHL. The guy has speed and more importantly, motivation. How can he not be successful? If nothing else, I will have praise for him just because he smacked Kesler around.

 

I wonder if it's just a lack of talent around him.  Never had a true #1 Center to play with.  

 

Another thing is, he was able to push guys around in Juniors.  At the NHL level, guys are too big for him to push around consistently.  I also wonder how many times he's been challenged to fight just becauseof his dad.  Must be annoying.

 

The difference between Domi and Bennett is that Bennett is great without the puck.  Domi floats around.