Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[The_People1]

22 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I do believe that in theory, you can be a contender consistently without a rebuild.  In practice we don't see it much.   You could argue detroit pulled it off for  a good decade.  It requires a lot of things like consistently great management and great management succession plans, always considering the future in trades/acquisitions, and having some kind of advantage in the draft (Detroit figure out Russia), had great scouts too.  Once your pipeline is built up enough, all you have to do is maintain it...add to your pipeline a bit more each year.  

 

In reality, that is a lot of boxes to check of fan few if any teams consistently succeed at it.   So there are ebs and flows.    Once your pipeline is bare, no matter what you're doing currently in the standings, you know what's coming next.   IMHO our last rebuild was more about our pipeline running dry.    And our next one likely too.

 

In theory, of course.  Reality is, the salary cap acts as a great equalizer and Cup winning teams get their players poached and leave because of cap problems.

 

Sure I mean, as long as a team can pump out Mangiapanes and Gaudreaus in the 3rd/4th/5th rounds of the draft then they can retool on the fly.  Young blood keeps the total team cap low.  Otherwise, you need to draft in the top 10 for impact players.

[sak22]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I envy Habs fans.  Cup Finals and then 6 months later, leading the Shane Wright sweepstakes.  That's the way to go.  Hate being stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah, they will destroy him though.  Right now he is put up with the McDavid-Crosby stratosphere.  So far what I've seen which is limited, is he belongs more in the Stamkos-Tavares range and even that is a bit iffy.  Meanwhile their defense isn't very good so, no matter what they aren't looking at a turnaround that will match their own expectations.

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yeah, they will destroy him though.  Right now he is put up with the McDavid-Crosby stratosphere.  So far what I've seen which is limited, is he belongs more in the Stamkos-Tavares range and even that is a bit iffy.  Meanwhile their defense isn't very good so, no matter what they aren't looking at a turnaround that will match their own expectations.

 

If I were in their situation, I would send him back for another year before bringing him up. I would probably do that with every prospect.  They maybe good enough for the NHL, but if it's going to ruin them, then it might be best to let them grow another year.

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

If I were in their situation, I would send him back for another year before bringing him up. I would probably do that with every prospect.  They maybe good enough for the NHL, but if it's going to ruin them, then it might be best to let them grow another year.

My personal opinion is having a veteran base around a young core.  I thought Pittsburgh did it well having Crosby live with Mario, bring in Gonchar to help with Malkin, and really continued to bring in vets like Recchi, Roberts, Guerin.  I think Edmonton created an environment of entitlement.  I'm fine with 18 year olds on the ice the in NHL if they are physically and mentally ready, it's the off-ice stuff that worries me especially in Canadian cities,18 year old Patrick Kane in Chicago and 18 year old Taylor Hall in Edmonton were not on the same level.

[The_People1]

31 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yeah, they will destroy him though.  Right now he is put up with the McDavid-Crosby stratosphere.  So far what I've seen which is limited, is he belongs more in the Stamkos-Tavares range and even that is a bit iffy.  Meanwhile their defense isn't very good so, no matter what they aren't looking at a turnaround that will match their own expectations.

 

Trues.  Early indication is that Wright is not in the same league as Crosby/McDavid.  Lafreniere looks kinda iffy right now too and he had lots of hype going into his draft year.

 

But hey still.  Point is the Habs fans have something to get excited about.

[sak22]

20 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Trues.  Early indication is that Wright is not in the same league as Crosby/McDavid.  Lafreniere looks kinda iffy right now too and he had lots of hype going into his draft year.

 

But hey still.  Point is the Habs fans have something to get excited about.

They hired the agent who got Darnell Nurse paid 9.25 a year as their GM, can't tell if that's something to be excited about.  I guess well see if he can fleece other GM's like he did Holland.  Draisaitl for Price - you heard it here first.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

In theory, of course.  Reality is, the salary cap acts as a great equalizer and Cup winning teams get their players poached and leave because of cap problems.

 

Sure I mean, as long as a team can pump out Mangiapanes and Gaudreaus in the 3rd/4th/5th rounds of the draft then they can retool on the fly.  Young blood keeps the total team cap low.  Otherwise, you need to draft in the top 10 for impact players.

 

The recent history is a team that can game the cap has a better chance at winning the cup.

Storing players in LTIR.

Fooling a team like VAN to give up a 1st for a player they can afford (Miller).

Or taking Schmidt because they signed Pietrangelo.

The dumb GM's allow this to continue.

[robrob74]

33 minutes ago, sak22 said:

My personal opinion is having a veteran base around a young core.  I thought Pittsburgh did it well having Crosby live with Mario, bring in Gonchar to help with Malkin, and really continued to bring in vets like Recchi, Roberts, Guerin.  I think Edmonton created an environment of entitlement.  I'm fine with 18 year olds on the ice the in NHL if they are physically and mentally ready, it's the off-ice stuff that worries me especially in Canadian cities,18 year old Patrick Kane in Chicago and 18 year old Taylor Hall in Edmonton were not on the same level.

 

I can agree with that too. I also think that some players (Like Monahan) just have some maturity. But surrounding them helps. Toews was probably serious the day he was born, whereas Kane would have been a different kind of kid. 

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The recent history is a team that can game the cap has a better chance at winning the cup.

Storing players in LTIR.

Fooling a team like VAN to give up a 1st for a player they can afford (Miller).

Or taking Schmidt because they signed Pietrangelo.

The dumb GM's allow this to continue.

 

It is amazing how some GM's are able to pull that off, getting other GM's to take your problem, while in some cities it just seems impossible. How many contracts have we been trying to get out of and yet Vegas has had it a bit easier in doing that? 

I guess Vegas is the new NYR? Players want to play there.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

It is amazing how some GM's are able to pull that off, getting other GM's to take your problem, while in some cities it just seems impossible. How many contracts have we been trying to get out of and yet Vegas has had it a bit easier in doing that? 

I guess Vegas is the new NYR? Players want to play there.

 

Not sure why.  Fake city with warm temps.

Fastest growing city other than Phoenix.

But, I guess $$ are king because they pay whatever.

Outbid other teams in FA.

Somehow manage to get other teams to believe their players are better trade returns.

That Stone trade still looks bad.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The recent history is a team that can game the cap has a better chance at winning the cup.

Storing players in LTIR.

Fooling a team like VAN to give up a 1st for a player they can afford (Miller).

Or taking Schmidt because they signed Pietrangelo.

The dumb GM's allow this to continue.

At the time I would've taken Schmidt for a 3rd in a heartbeat.  He was very solid in Vegas, just didn't work in Vancouver.  Miller is also a big win for Vancouver.  I didn't know GM's weren't supposed to try improving their club if it was helping another with their cap situation, if we need to blame people blame the guy who gave Tampa both Miller and McDonagh for an underwhelming package

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

At the time I would've taken Schmidt for a 3rd in a heartbeat.  He was very solid in Vegas, just didn't work in Vancouver.  Miller is also a big win for Vancouver.  I didn't know GM's weren't supposed to try improving their club if it was helping another with their cap situation, if we need to blame people blame the guy who gave Tampa both Miller and McDonagh for an underwhelming package

 

Benning is where now?

Just kidding.

A team that helps another team out of cap hell should be accountable.

Tampa used the pick from VAN to get Coleman.

Vegas was able to remain cap compliant after signing Pietrangelo.

 

I'm not saying you don't trade with them, but don't help them out so easily.

VAN should have held Tampa over a barrel.

Not give them a 1st when you are building a team. 

[cross16]

While I am a little surprised at the value Vegas has been able to extract from some deals the fact that they can find takers is not surprising. That's what happens when you have a surplus of good players, teams will take them off your hands.

 

Problem in Calgary is they've been trying to unload bad players. 

[sak22]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Benning is where now?

Just kidding.

A team that helps another team out of cap hell should be accountable.

Tampa used the pick from VAN to get Coleman.

Vegas was able to remain cap compliant after signing Pietrangelo.

 

I'm not saying you don't trade with them, but don't help them out so easily.

VAN should have held Tampa over a barrel.

Not give them a 1st when you are building a team. 

So if you identify a player like JT Miller that could be of use for your team, you aim low and hope that nobody beats your offer because you don't want to help their situation.  What if there are other offers from your biggest rivals?  Still no.

 

I find it funny the cap complaints.  I remember the days we worried that we wouldn't be able to keep Iginla, Kiprusoff, Phaneuf, Langkow and Regehr and remain cap compliant.  We did so by LTIRing Warrener, demoting Eriksson, sending Nilson to Russia and constantly recalling/demoting Boyd.  That team just ran into injuries at the worst time to our entire defense.  If they won the cup every other fanbase would BTC the same way we do over Tampa.  If we could LTIR Gaudreau, still make the playoffs easily, while Gaudreau returns game one of the playoffs and plays at a high level and win a Conne Smythe, nobody would complain here.  I don't concern myself too much with how other teams accumulate great players, its a problem I'd love for the Flames to have.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, sak22 said:

So if you identify a player like JT Miller that could be of use for your team, you aim low and hope that nobody beats your offer because you don't want to help their situation.  What if there are other offers from your biggest rivals?  Still no.

 

I find it funny the cap complaints.  I remember the days we worried that we wouldn't be able to keep Iginla, Kiprusoff, Phaneuf, Langkow and Regehr and remain cap compliant.  We did so by LTIRing Warrener, demoting Eriksson, sending Nilson to Russia and constantly recalling/demoting Boyd.  That team just ran into injuries at the worst time to our entire defense.  If they won the cup every other fanbase would BTC the same way we do over Tampa.  If we could LTIR Gaudreau, still make the playoffs easily, while Gaudreau returns game one of the playoffs and plays at a high level and win a Conne Smythe, nobody would complain here.  I don't concern myself too much with how other teams accumulate great players, its a problem I'd love for the Flames to have.

 

The entire league knew Tampa was in a pickle.

Nobody else seemed to be stepping up to trade with Tampa.

One team stepped up and offered a 1st round to help them out.

VAN doesn't make that trade and perhaps the Bolts don't win a cup.

They don't have the 1st to offer for Coleman.

 

Schmidt was a much better trade with a team over the cap.

 

[phoenix66]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:31 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I think it was leaked last season or the season before that BT never even talked to PITs about MAF.  We all assumed BT asked about MAF but... Who knows now.  Perhaps PIT made the insane offer and BT shut the phone and never called back.

To this statement I say give your head a shake to whoever said it ... BT not calling on an available player ?  BT calls if the waterboy is available .. 

Brian Burke said they did .they were usually very short because he wasn't giving up the 1st pick for him.at least not straight up..and that's what was always asked for in any deal 

 

MAF himself said he expected to be moved to Calgary, hadn't been asked to waive yet but said he would have , but he had asked JR to not move him.. and he ended up granting his wish 

[LouCifer]

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

Like I said elsewhere, you can debate the cost to get the player, but he pulled off a major trade well before the TDL.  Brings elements that we need and needed.  

 

 

[travel_dude]

Begin Phase 1

[travel_dude]

Phase 1 complete.

 

Begin Phase 2.

[travel_dude]

^^^

Wrong thread

[conundrumed]

Figure this is the right thread for this, for any that missed:

https://www.nhl.com/news/calgary-flames-gm-brad-treliving-discusses-johnny-gaudreau-trade-deadline-and-coach-darryl-sutter/c-331718170

[cross16]

Hard to find a place to put this but figured this made the most sense. 

 

This is a really interesting and well written article by Salim Varji that goes a little deeper into the Flames evaluation process and how they combine data, scouts etc. I would recommend giving it a read as I thought it was fairly insightful and I think helps demonstrate why (IMO at least) their decision making has gotten better these last couple seasons. 

 

https://www.tsn.ca/organizational-alignment-playing-key-role-in-calgary-flames-success-1.1771318

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Hard to find a place to put this but figured this made the most sense. 

 

This is a really interesting and well written article by Salim Varji that goes a little deeper into the Flames evaluation process and how they combine data, scouts etc. I would recommend giving it a read as I thought it was fairly insightful and I think helps demonstrate why (IMO at least) their decision making has gotten better these last couple seasons. 

 

https://www.tsn.ca/organizational-alignment-playing-key-role-in-calgary-flames-success-1.1771318

 

If there is that alignment between coach and GM/evaluation the it's a good thing.

I was a little concerned that coaching was overruling GM/scouting.

It seems that may not be the case.

So, you have to think that the GM is already talking to coach about potential trades.

What is the impact of player X leaving or player Y coming in.

 

The first part of the article seems to be bang on.

Tkachuk knows where Johnny is going to be and vice versa.

Same with Lindholm.

The D pairs get a little crossed up at times, when the F is not where they expect.

Usually, it just turns out to be a little early or late.

 

I wonder though about whether we need to get Mange back to the Backlund line.

Mixed results where he is right now.

I would prefer to continue to develop 3rd line as a secondary scoring line.

One that has defensive smarts.

 

[rocketdoctor]

Solid work from BT over the last 6 weeks.

 

Really impressed we did not lose anyone in Stockton