Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[robrob74]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

So there is a formula after all.  It's so hard to win in this league because everyone is competing to implement this formula.

 

For me, there isn’t enough compete on D. In the playoffs it was just Andersson. He can only do so much by himself. If he can continue to drag Hanifin’s game then that’s great. Hanifin is the type to just play by going through the motions. He does one thing terrible which is transition to defending, for a fast smooth skater he loses a step in his first instinct to step forward. He does nearly everything else good-ish but doesn’t seem to try to push limits. Makes it seem like he isn’t trying. He has the skill to push but the fact he doesn’t will always keep him as a #4. 
 

Gio tries to do too much in the playoffs. Brodie was good, so it’s tough to say if Tanev does enough to make up for him. The rest didn’t push the needle. 
 

other teams have slightly deeper D. Can Tanev and Valamaki push the Flames ahead? 
 

The Flames have been horrible at defending. Others will quote stats that prove that we were good at at it. But I would counter that once teams decide to push the Flames the team tends to crumble under pressure. I think it’s the pressure where the Flames are very subpar. 
 

to me, it’s also brain farts. 
 

the rest of the time they’re decent to good at moving the play up ice. So it’s the games within the game that  they need to manage. 
 

I will get criticism for this, but it’s just what I’ve watched. I think having the puck is great but if you’re not doing anything with it then it’s a moot point. It makes stats look good. It looks like the Flames are doing better than they might be. 
 

I will admit when they look like they’re trying they look good. But complacency gets into their game too. So I can see why some have higher expectations or view the team in a better light.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

you’re comparing apples to oranges. Depending on what you like more, Tampa is that. They’re a better, deeper built team with a style of play that suits them. They have more higher end stars and people in the right spots. C, D, G... 

 

Monahan or Backlund isn’t the type to fully push as a #1 C.  If you want to compare both teams the Flames are very TB light.

 

Tampa had one more player than CGY score more than 20 goals.

The big difference in scoring was from the D.

Gio was the highest scoring one with 31 points.

They had Sergachev, Hedman and Shattenkirk  all score more than 30.

 

Were they deeper?

Sure, they added Maroon for less than $1m.

Traded a pick for Coleman.

Added Shattenkirk for less than $2m.

They will be lucky to keep the team together (hint - they can't).

Next year they have $11m left with only 12 players signed.

 

Tampa was lucky to have the playoffs they had.

Everything working at the right time and the payroll under the cap at the right time.

[robrob74]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Tampa had one more player than CGY score more than 20 goals.

The big difference in scoring was from the D.

Gio was the highest scoring one with 31 points.

They had Sergachev, Hedman and Shattenkirk  all score more than 30.

 

Were they deeper?

Sure, they added Maroon for less than $1m.

Traded a pick for Coleman.

Added Shattenkirk for less than $2m.

They will be lucky to keep the team together (hint - they can't).

Next year they have $11m left with only 12 players signed.

 

Tampa was lucky to have the playoffs they had.

Everything working at the right time and the payroll under the cap at the right time.

 

I don’t really care about how many goals more or how many players do what. I think it’s more how they play under pressure, how they play as a team. A lot of points can come in meaningless games too. We can win 6-1 then lose 4-2. You can pad stats and then look bad in other games. For me it’s not just that, it’s total team and team chemistry and total team effort: 

 

they also won a cup. You’d take that hint in the long run if the trade off is a cup. Easy to critique them now after they won it. 
 

they still have a deep team that will make the playoffs next year. 
 

I don’t think the flames are as close. Sure Dallas went to the Finals. The Flames weren’t going to beat them and I would say they probably still don’t with Tkachuk.

[redfire11]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I would go

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Dube

 

Since Dube is better equipped to play RW than Mangiapane I put him there. I think he will leapfrog Mangiapane anyway.Maybe Leivo is Ferland enough to fill the hole, But I am not convinced 
 

To compare the Flames to the lightening  isn’t really fair because they have a stud or two in each position throughout the lineup and I’d say their coach is a thousand times better than ours. But the Flames have promise, they just need to tweak a bit. 

Totally agree with this especially the bolded

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Tampa had one more player than CGY score more than 20 goals.

The big difference in scoring was from the D.

Gio was the highest scoring one with 31 points.

They had Sergachev, Hedman and Shattenkirk  all score more than 30.

 

Were they deeper?

Sure, they added Maroon for less than $1m.

Traded a pick for Coleman.

Added Shattenkirk for less than $2m.

They will be lucky to keep the team together (hint - they can't).

Next year they have $11m left with only 12 players signed.

 

Tampa was lucky to have the playoffs they had.

Everything working at the right time and the payroll under the cap at the right time.

 

i think that we agree but my biggest issue is that most of the team just doesn’t compete with consistency, and it’s even worse in the playoffs. They become easy to shut down when it gets tougher to play. I love that they have the ability to play as well as they can, but can’t stand the fact that they don’t have the effort when it seems to matter the most. To me that doesn’t breed playoff success. 
 

So I see your points and do agree with the fact they have the skills and ability to put up points and enough wins to get to the playoffs. To me it is just the inconsistency or constant inability to get up for important regular season and playoff games.

 

For whatever reasons they just haven’t been able to put it all together as a whole group, or can they become a team that pushes the envelope instead of waiting for it to happen? It’s like they wait until they see what teams are going to do. They seem to start 10 minutes late or get going in the third, etc. But I agree, they have as many players as any team that can score points. But for whatever reasons they just don’t do all go together. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I know this is going nowhere, but anyway...

 

You have a top line that has progressed every year, yet you somehow feel that they are more likely to repeat a down year.

In the last 4 years, other than 18/19, Gio was around 25 assists, 14 or less on the PP.

Gaudreau and Monahan increased their totals over those 4 years.

You could argue Gio is in decline, but that doesn't extend to the rest of the top line.

Gio's SH% dropped by 50%, which is a good indicator why his points dropped.

 

It's fine to trash the team because you don't like the players or style.

Also okay to trash the GM because they made mistakes.

Giving up a 1st for Hamonic was wrong.

Would you have given up a 1st for Blake Coleman or JT Miller?

How about Barclay Goodrow?

 

There are so few teams that are able to make the playoffs every year.

The ones that have missed because of a rebuild are still rebuilding.

And likely to continue that trend.

Should Tampa have rebuilt after a first round sweep last year?

Maybe they got it right by adding for the now instead of hoping for the future.

 

I agree with you on some points here, like how it is going nowhere 😅

 

We're not Tampa.  If we resembled Tampa, I'd support going for the gold. 

 

Maybe someday we will and then that'll make for a good discussion.    Until then, I don't want bad things for the team but I know we may have to go through some before we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

For me, there isn’t enough compete on D. In the playoffs it was just Andersson. He can only do so much by himself. If he can continue to drag Hanifin’s game then that’s great. Hanifin is the type to just play by going through the motions. He does one thing terrible which is transition to defending, for a fast smooth skater he loses a step in his first instinct to step forward. He does nearly everything else good-ish but doesn’t seem to try to push limits. Makes it seem like he isn’t trying. He has the skill to push but the fact he doesn’t will always keep him as a #4. 
 

Gio tries to do too much in the playoffs. Brodie was good, so it’s tough to say if Tanev does enough to make up for him. The rest didn’t push the needle. 
 

other teams have slightly deeper D. Can Tanev and Valamaki push the Flames ahead? 
 

The Flames have been horrible at defending. Others will quote stats that prove that we were good at at it. But I would counter that once teams decide to push the Flames the team tends to crumble under pressure. I think it’s the pressure where the Flames are very subpar. 
 

to me, it’s also brain farts. 
 

the rest of the time they’re decent to good at moving the play up ice. So it’s the games within the game that  they need to manage. 
 

I will get criticism for this, but it’s just what I’ve watched. I think having the puck is great but if you’re not doing anything with it then it’s a moot point. It makes stats look good. It looks like the Flames are doing better than they might be. 
 

I will admit when they look like they’re trying they look good. But complacency gets into their game too. So I can see why some have higher expectations or view the team in a better light.

 

Well we didn't get elite shut down defending when we needed it most.  We had several leads vaporized throughout the DAL series seemingly as they turned it on, we had no answer.

 

And plus, if Talbot/Rittich didn't crap the bed that one game, maybe we would've went to the Finals.

[robrob74]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well we didn't get elite shut down defending when we needed it most.  We had several leads vaporized throughout the DAL series seemingly as they turned it on, we had no answer.

 

And plus, if Talbot/Rittich didn't crap the bed that one game, maybe we would've went to the Finals.

the thing is, I don’t think just because we beat Dallas that we go to the finals. You can’t say that that’s how it works. The flames would still need to do the work to beat the other teams. It’s like saying if we didn’t trade a draft pick that we’d for sure draft the same player. 
 

I don’t know if beating Dallas means they’d have figured it out. Johnny looked better but still not fully himself. Plus they’d still have to win the 4th game. They’d still have to win game 7.

 

maybe they get their legs to keep moving but Dallas would too. 
 

would the Flames have the same opponents on the way to the cup? I don’t remember if they changed it so the highest seeds play the lowest in each round or if they made a locked brackets, road to the Cup.

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

the thing is, I don’t think just because we beat Dallas that we go to the finals. You can’t say that that’s how it works. The flames would still need to do the work to beat the other teams. It’s like saying if we didn’t trade a draft pick that we’d for sure draft the same player. 
 

I don’t know if beating Dallas means they’d have figured it out. Johnny looked better but still not fully himself. Plus they’d still have to win the 4th game. They’d still have to win game 7.

 

maybe they get their legs to keep moving but Dallas would too. 
 

would the Flames have the same opponents on the way to the cup? I don’t remember if they changed it so the highest seeds play the lowest in each round or if they made a locked brackets, road to the Cup.

 

It's a season where you can't really predict the outcome with different results.

 

Flames would have faced VGK in round 2.  Nucks would have faced AVS.

You can't extend a Flames victory over the Stars to a victory over VGK.

But, what killed the Flames against Dallas would not be there.

VGK beat the Nucks but it wasn't a blowout series.

 

The thing about the Dallas series was that it eliminated the top line 5v5.

Would that be true against the VGK?

Not so sure of that.

[Thebrewcrew]

Anyone listen to BT on the fan today? It was really good, he is clearly not happy. Will post a link once it becomes available. 

[LouCifer]

53 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Anyone listen to BT on the fan today? It was really good, he is clearly not happy. Will post a link once it becomes available. 

Looking forward to hearing it TBC. Thanks in advance for the share! 

[Thebrewcrew]

2 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

Looking forward to hearing it TBC. Thanks in advance for the share! 

 

[MP5029]

50 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

I like BT’s mind set, now if he practices what he preaches I’m definitely happy with that...it’s good he took the time to address things, definitely builds confidence in a shaky fan base. 
 

also very encouraging about Bennett, he’s definitely not gonna give him away, if at all 😊👍

[LouCifer]

56 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I like BT’s mind set, now if he practices what he preaches I’m definitely happy with that...it’s good he took the time to address things, definitely builds confidence in a shaky fan base. 
 

also very encouraging about Bennett, he’s definitely not gonna give him away, if at all 😊👍

Agreed. 

[JTech780]

I was a little surprised that he didn't exactly backup his coach. He didn't really say anything negative about the coach, but he didn't necessarily endorse the coach either. I mean I wouldn't read too much into it one way or another, but I did find it interesting none the less.

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I was a little surprised that he didn't exactly backup his coach. He didn't really say anything negative about the coach, but he didn't necessarily endorse the coach either. I mean I wouldn't read too much into it one way or another, but I did find it interesting none the less.

 

Well, I think that needs to take place in provate.

Not with schills like Francis there to ask the stupid questions about anything but hockey.

[JTech780]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, I think that needs to take place in provate.

Not with schills like Francis there to ask the stupid questions about anything but hockey.

 

Well I guess I was just expecting Treliving to give Ward a vote of confidence, but it was more like he said that the coaching staff needed to be better. To be fair he said everyone needed to be better.

[LouCifer]

I like that he put himself in the guillotine as well. Said it starts from the top. GM builds the roster, hires the coach... I’m hoping this was some insight into how he’s thinking - reevaluating some of his decisions and hopefully considering changes. 

[dieselmarble]

BT has dropped the ball this season. The team hasn't been able to score goals in years. Small Defense core. Tiny forwards who have to shoot from the boards can't go to the net. Big guys who don't fight for the teammates and don't hit. A coach who is totally lost.  The GM is overall responsible and he is failing the fans. Where is the GM???

[cross16]

14 hours ago, JTech780 said:

I was a little surprised that he didn't exactly backup his coach. He didn't really say anything negative about the coach, but he didn't necessarily endorse the coach either. I mean I wouldn't read too much into it one way or another, but I did find it interesting none the less.

i found that interesting too. I also noticed he chose his words very carefully on that subject. Paused quite a bit before he would answer. It is a tricky topic to I get that but thought it was interesting. 
 

I’m by no means suggesting I think a move is coming but it does feel like he’s not exactly thrilled with the work. 

[cross16]

My biggest hope, and at the same time fear, in all of this is we start asking the right questions. The questions should not be for Ward or for Treliving the questions should be higher. 
 

Why have we built a culture that does not appear to be built on accountability?

Why does it feel like the budget isn’t there to hire the right coach or an established coach?

why isn’t hockey ops allowed to operate independently?

why do we have to be “good” every year? 
 

It’s time to answer this because in the history of the Flames we keep coming to same conclusion every time despite multiple coaches and multiple GMs. Time to start asking bigger questions. 
 

The fear though is that’s not often how it works and I know these owners aren’t going anywhere. Firing Treliving is just rinsing and repeating for the organization and I’m pretty convinced isn’t going to change a darn thing. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

27 minutes ago, cross16 said:

My biggest hope, and at the same time fear, in all of this is we start asking the right questions. The questions should not be for Ward or for Treliving the questions should be higher. 
 

Why have we built a culture that does not appear to be built on accountability?

Why does it feel like the budget isn’t there to hire the right coach or an established coach?

why isn’t hockey ops allowed to operate independently?

why do we have to be “good” every year? 
 

It’s time to answer this because in the history of the Flames we keep coming to same conclusion every time despite multiple coaches and multiple GMs. Time to start asking bigger questions. 
 

The fear though is that’s not often how it works and I know these owners aren’t going anywhere. Firing Treliving is just rinsing and repeating for the organization and I’m pretty convinced isn’t going to change a darn thing. 

As a non-local you'll need to indulge me but would the status of the new arena (funding, investment, public support) be a big factor into that? Current state of economy aside I'm sure getting support for a team is even harder if the team is a bottom feeder for any length of time.

[cross16]

45 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

As a non-local you'll need to indulge me but would the status of the new arena (funding, investment, public support) be a big factor into that? Current state of economy aside I'm sure getting support for a team is even harder if the team is a bottom feeder for any length of time.

I’m sure it’s a factor to a certain degree but at the same time that standard was around when they hired Sutter. It’s been around for a while. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Why have we built a culture that does not appear to be built on accountability?

Why does it feel like the budget isn’t there to hire the right coach or an established coach?

why isn’t hockey ops allowed to operate independently?

why do we have to be “good” every year? 

 

Hockey ops probably was seen to be like a teen left alone for the first time - issues with the Feaster rebuild and Burke truculence years.

Too many bad choices that shaped the future years.

 

The coaching decisions are the most perplexing.

We take on Neal, no questions asked.

Buy out Brouwer and Bouma and Stone etc., no questions asked.

Trade Neal for Lucic, no questions asked.

But we hire coaches with no track record as a successful head coach.

Spend to the cap, then buy a used school bus for transport and play an old VCR tape of the Mighty Ducks for inspiration.

 

I get the have to be good thing.  It's a business that depended on fans to pay the bills.

Close to losing the team once I guess.

 

A culture of not being accountable.

I wonder about that.

Are the players accountable - they are not traded if they have a bad year, with a few exceptions.

Are the coaches accountable - last crew is still here with the exception of a coach that quit.

Do we take loses too easily - it appears that is fine as ling as we have teaching moments or we say the right things after a loss.

 

[MP5029]

2 hours ago, dieselmarble said:

BT has dropped the ball this season. The team hasn't been able to score goals in years. Small Defense core. Tiny forwards who have to shoot from the boards can't go to the net. Big guys who don't fight for the teammates and don't hit. A coach who is totally lost.  The GM is overall responsible and he is failing the fans. Where is the GM???

I know, it’s like they have copied the old Mlt template of building a team...skilled and fast little guys...which clearly won’t win...

 

I mean I’m not a huge dude myself but even I know, a hockey team of guys under 6’ is only gonna get pushed around and banged up...

 

1-2 skilled fast gritty guys is fine but we have a ton of them...let me ask this, who is the power forward on their team? I guess Lucic is but he’s a depth guy, we need at least 1 if not 3 skilled fast, agile power forwards in the top 3 lines, we have none which is the majors issue up front I think...that and RHS RW’s as a whole