Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cccsberg]

43 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I think you have to give BT more credit than you have here. Even he had to have learned somethings from this season. If he truly believed he had a team that would challenge for a SC then yes change him because he is delusional. Now if he steps back and takes a rational approach to analyzing all the why, what, where and how the season went the way it did he will come out a better GM. I believe it starts with him being real about his own decisions and thinking.

I agree that is how he SHOULD be thinking, but pre-season statements about being Cup contenders, and in-season bafflement about home woe because Corsi, and now seeming confusion paints a different picture.  Up until recently I would have agreed with you.  Hopefully I’m wrong.

[cross16]

Personally I thought the press conference was exactly what you would want to hear from him, keeping in mind he isn't going to reveal a plan at this point. 

 

- Acknowledged they aren't skilled enough and need to get better here

- Acknowledged their poor PP and basically put it on the coaching staff.

- Acknowledged some players had some down years and it's fair to suggest they'll bounce back, which is accurate IMO. 

- Acknowledged that in their locker room, and seem to suggest this is both a player and coach issue, something is missing and it wasn't good enough. 

- will no he didn't fire Gulutzan on the spot, he made more than a few subtle references to reviewing coaching issues 

- he will Hash Rate every and all angles to gather info before making decisions, which i think is incredibly smart. 

- Gave NO indication (certainly to me) that this past season was good enough, that they are "fine" or that he would not be making changes in the off-season. 

 

Again, I get it everyone wants a quick fix but personally I thought the issues/problems he brought up or spoke to hit the mark in terms of what happened this season. 

 

 

[phoenix66]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I think you have to give BT more credit than you have here. Even he had to have learned somethings from this season. If he truly believed he had a team that would challenge for a SC then yes change him because he is delusional. Now if he steps back and takes a rational approach to analyzing all the why, what, where and how the season went the way it did he will come out a better GM. I believe it starts with him being real about his own decisions and thinking.

Other thing to consider is at NO point did her EVER label us a cup contender 

he said it was after last year , when we made the playoffs ..making is no longer good enough .. raise the bar . So assembled some changes that was designed to have a better result , meaning not only make the playoffs , but win a round (and then hey , see what happens )

This team took a step backwards, he now needs to analyze why and adjust accordingly .

 

I'm sure the feeling was that the improved D and goaltending would allow more room for the forward kids to develop.. win games 2-1 or 3-2 , and not have to try and win 5-4-- that was derailed by nowhere near the D results and atrocious powerplay.. i firmly believe with even a middle of the pack powerplay , that would have made the difference in itself.

 

I also like his term of Emotional investment , as opposed to character .. why do we crumple , we have stanley cup winners in Frolik and Versteeg ..Hudler when he was here and good, came with a winning pedigree from Detroit.. that helped Johnny and Mony ..  Jagr in his short time here brought a winning attitude that rubbed off .. the rest don't know to win cuz they never have .. we need an injection of some character players with a winning pedigree at the NHL level, who know all about locating that next gear when you think you're already giving it all you have 

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Personally I thought the press conference was exactly what you would want to hear from him, keeping in mind he isn't going to reveal a plan at this point. 

 

- Acknowledged they aren't skilled enough and need to get better here

- Acknowledged their poor PP and basically put it on the coaching staff.

- Acknowledged some players had some down years and it's fair to suggest they'll bounce back, which is accurate IMO. 

- Acknowledged that in their locker room, and seem to suggest this is both a player and coach issue, something is missing and it wasn't good enough. 

- will no he didn't fire Gulutzan on the spot, he made more than a few subtle references to reviewing coaching issues 

- he will Hash Rate every and all angles to gather info before making decisions, which i think is incredibly smart. 

- Gave NO indication (certainly to me) that this past season was good enough, that they are "fine" or that he would not be making changes in the off-season. 

 

Again, I get it everyone wants a quick fix but personally I thought the issues/problems he brought up or spoke to hit the mark in terms of what happened this season. 

 

 

 

Yet, he hit Backlund with big money at the TDL rather than trading him.  Needless to say, he felt the team was 180 only a month ago.  That's scary.

[cross16]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yet, he hit Backlund with big money at the TDL rather than trading him.  Needless to say, he felt the team was 180 only a month ago.  That's scary.

 

I think you're pretty a little dramatic personally. If you view it in a vacuum sure it looks that way, but you don't sign Backlund for just this season, you signed him for many more years. Flames center depth and their ability to contend in the coming years would have eroded if Backlund was not signed. 

 

Perhaps your insinuating that they could just sign Backlund back, but I think you need to consider how rare that is. Nevermind the fact it's prohibited by the CBA and it would have almost for sure cost the Flames more in salary. 

[The_People1]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I think you're pretty a little dramatic personally. If you view it in a vacuum sure it looks that way, but you don't sign Backlund for just this season, you signed him for many more years. Flames center depth and their ability to contend in the coming years would have eroded if Backlund was not signed. 

 

The theme of BT's press conference was, "I don't know what happened exactly and we won't act 24 hours after the season is over".  Come on, the season ended about 320 hours ago, not 24 hours ago.

 

And to not know what happened is to drown in cognitive dissonance because the ocean of what we felt was a Cup contender has swept him deep into the sea of misjudgment.   He cannot fathom the results because he's too emotionally invested in this team and in each individual player/coach.

 

In these situations, it's actually easier for a fan who is detached from the "wives have cancer", "we do a lot of charity work together", "he's a great guy off the ice",  "he's visiting Humbolt victims", etc and do the brutal but right thing.

 

He thought we were going to the playoffs and that's why he re-signed Backlund.  Plain and simple.  Backlund could've been signed before the start of the season if he was such a core peice.  He made a mistake.

[cross16]

Were far apart on this one Peeps. 

[cccsberg]

8 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Other thing to consider is at NO point did her EVER label us a cup contender 

he said it was after last year , when we made the playoffs ..making is no longer good enough .. raise the bar . So assembled some changes that was designed to have a better result , meaning not only make the playoffs , but win a round (and then hey , see what happens )

This team took a step backwards, he now needs to analyze why and adjust accordingly .

 

I'm sure the feeling was that the improved D and goaltending would allow more room for the forward kids to develop.. win games 2-1 or 3-2 , and not have to try and win 5-4-- that was derailed by nowhere near the D results and atrocious powerplay.. i firmly believe with even a middle of the pack powerplay , that would have made the difference in itself.

 

I also like his term of Emotional investment , as opposed to character .. why do we crumple , we have stanley cup winners in Frolik and Versteeg ..Hudler when he was here and good, came with a winning pedigree from Detroit.. that helped Johnny and Mony ..  Jagr in his short time here brought a winning attitude that rubbed off .. the rest don't know to win cuz they never have .. we need an injection of some character players with a winning pedigree at the NHL level, who know all about locating that next gear when you think you're already giving it all you have 

Oh boy, more over-the-hill, overpaid vets.  Yikes, will we never learn?   

 

I don’t believe that the team was “fragile” because of too few vets.  Rather it was because of poor coaching, promoting guys even though they did not deserve it, lack of accountability and developing a system that targeted effort and not results.  In addition planning to win by just getting to overtime then letting a couple skaters get the win rather than learning to crush teams when they were down.  The litany of bad management and coaching on this team is extensive, including trying to build around too many vets that should have hung em up years ago.  

 

Man, some of you guys sound like BT... can’t understand why we failed...we have such a great D... unprecedented bad luck.... we were one of the leagues best Possesion teams.... and on it goes.  Give your head a shake.  Flames had nearly the worst home record in the league.  PP was terrible almost all year.  How many starters that could score a couple goals all year?  Terrible goal differential all year long.  Never scored a goalie-pulled goal all year?  Brouwer was our best right shot forward all year?  Coach takes months to make a move that was obvious in days..... 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Brouwer was our best right shot forward all year? 

 

Brouwer was in fact the teams best RHS forward.  Which, is total fail on the part of BT.

 

Who else was better?  Jagr seriously?  Versteeg sucked this year and injured.  Hathaway was great defensively but has hands of stone.  Lazar?  Foo?  Don't say Lazar please.  There hasn't been a Forward skate that well but suck so good as soon as he enters the offensive zone since, I dunno, Blake Comeau.

[phoenix66]

13 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Oh boy, more over-the-hill, overpaid vets.  Yikes, will we never learn?   

 

I don’t believe that the team was “fragile” because of too few vets.  Rather it was because of poor coaching, promoting guys even though they did not deserve it, lack of accountability and developing a system that targeted effort and not results.  In addition planning to win by just getting to overtime then letting a couple skaters get the win rather than learning to crush teams when they were down.  The litany of bad management and coaching on this team is extensive, including trying to build around too many vets that should have hung em up years ago.  

 

Man, some of you guys sound like BT... can’t understand why we failed...we have such a great D... unprecedented bad luck.... we were one of the leagues best Possesion teams.... and on it goes.  Give your head a shake.  Flames had nearly the worst home record in the league.  PP was terrible almost all year.  How many starters that could score a couple goals all year?  Terrible goal differential all year long.  Never scored a goalie-pulled goal all year?  Brouwer was our best right shot forward all year?  Coach takes months to make a move that was obvious in days..... 

where do you get "overpaid over the hill vets " from "character players with a winning pedigree"..?

Its not the top line players that push you over the edge ..many are found in your bottom 3 the player that Edmonton likely misses the most from last season and Wpg is benefitting from this season is Matt Hendricks .. dude makes 600K.

Hudler earned his money until the last year of his deal..  Frolik is still earning his.. Versteeg when he is healthy earns his ..

Edmonton's big fail from their 1st round pick bonanza years was not surrounding them with players that know how to win 

There will be a number of these options available through one avenue or another that will not break the bank

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

Its not the top line players that push you over the edge ..many are found in your bottom 3 the player that Edmonton likely misses the most from last season and Wpg is benefitting from this season is Matt Hendricks .. dude makes 600K.

 

 

Yes, Hendricks and his 5 goals and 13 points are what is making the difference to WPg. has nothing to do with Kyle Conner and his 31 goals or the number 1 level goal tending of Hellebuyck. 

 

This is becoming a big pet peeve of mine in the hockey world. Season was a disappointment, let's get more grit and "character" and that will push us over even thought we fail to acknowledge that clearly we are not skilled enough. I'm fine with the idea of getting a better veteran player on this team but let's not pretend THAT is what the Flames really need. 

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

where do you get "overpaid over the hill vets " from "character players with a winning pedigree"..?

Its not the top line players that push you over the edge ..many are found in your bottom 3 the player that Edmonton likely misses the most from last season and Wpg is benefitting from this season is Matt Hendricks .. dude makes 600K.

Hudler earned his money until the last year of his deal..  Frolik is still earning his.. Versteeg when he is healthy earns his ..

Edmonton's big fail from their 1st round pick bonanza years was not surrounding them with players that know how to win 

There will be a number of these options available through one avenue or another that will not break the bank

Brouwer, Jagr, Stewart, Glass, Bartkowski...

[phoenix66]

53 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Yes, Hendricks and his 5 goals and 13 points are what is making the difference to WPg. has nothing to do with Kyle Conner and his 31 goals or the number 1 level goal tending of Hellebuyck. 

 

This is becoming a big pet peeve of mine in the hockey world. Season was a disappointment, let's get more grit and "character" and that will push us over even thought we fail to acknowledge that clearly we are not skilled enough. I'm fine with the idea of getting a better veteran player on this team but let's not pretend THAT is what the Flames really need. 

didnt say it was the only thing , but it is needed. We also need a RW, a competent power play coach , and a 3rd line that plays every day .. but if the plan is to move more kids into the lineup (as we should)  you better have some guidance there 

[phoenix66]

14 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Brouwer, Jagr, Stewart, Glass, Bartkowski...

on that list only Brouwer is / was overpaid.. and I would make serious argument that the Jagr signing paid dividends and would have paid more had he stayed healthy . I still think Stewart on the 4th line should be considered 

[Cowtownguy]

7 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

on that list only Brouwer is / was overpaid.. and I would make serious argument that the Jagr signing paid dividends and would have paid more had he stayed healthy . I still think Stewart on the 4th line should be considered 

I am still really confused about how Brouwer was used this year. GG and Treliving have both said that some players did not seem to put out the needed effort for the team to succeed. When I think of insufficient effort on the team, a mental picture of Brouwer quickly emerges. So, did they just recently conclude that a lack of effort was the problem, or did they not notice that Brouwer was playing poorly? Why did Brouwer get so much ice time when he is the quintessential example of weak play? If he was injured all year, the question still remains.

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I am still really confused about how Brouwer was used this year. GG and Treliving have both said that some players did not seem to put out the needed effort for the team to succeed. When I think of insufficient effort on the team, a mental picture of Brouwer quickly emerges. So, did they just recently conclude that a lack of effort was the problem, or did they not notice that Brouwer was playing poorly? Why did Brouwer get so much ice time when he is the quintessential example of weak play? If he was injured all year, the question still remains.

 

Well, for me, it’s possible he played hard, or was always in the right spot so his hockey sense got him to where he was supposed to be, but it’s hard to justify it because other than sense, the only skills he has these days are on the PK. We paid a lot for a PK specialist. 

 

I would ask, “why would I put out effort if someone like Brouwer keeps getting rewarded without the desired results?”

[Cowtownguy]

20 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Well, for me, it’s possible he played hard, or was always in the right spot so his hockey sense got him to where he was supposed to be, but it’s hard to justify it because other than sense, the only skills he has these days are on the PK. We paid a lot for a PK specialist. 

 

I would ask, “why would I put out effort if someone like Brouwer keeps getting rewarded without the desired results?”

And if he is following GG's style properly resulting in more ice time, I am afraid it reflects poorly on the system.

[phoenix66]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I would ask, “why would I put out effort if someone like Brouwer keeps getting rewarded without the desired results?”

I think this nails a big point , brings back the "always earned" mantra 

I love listening to Rhett Warrener on 960, he talks candid and gives a great insiders POV..  he was talking about this earlier in the week..

he talked about having guys like Freddie and Bart on the roster .. doesn't matter if you like them , or think they are great guys or teammates .. there will always be an undertone of "why are you here ".. there will be days they play , just to get them in games.. somebody who may have been busting their hump, will sit .. just to get them in 

Those spots should be filled by players who have a legitimate shot at taking somebody's job, i think he used Mangiapane and Wotherspoon as examples (because it made sense for Andersson to get a ton of playing time in the A)

 

same goes for regular players , i seriously dont question Brouwers "try" but rather his ability to perform in the situations hes put in ...  where is the motivation for Bennett to push himself if the same guys keep getting trotted out for the PP, etc... or knowing that Johnny and Mony will always get the top minutes , even on nights they both suck

There were nights that Stone / Kulak were playing way better than TJ and Hamonic.. did they end up with the 2nd most minutes that night ?  nope

 

It may have been garbage time, but i liked Andersson on the PP late season.. he didnt look out of place .. same with Jankowski

our coach is scared to take chances so he just goes with the same options over and over again 

[travel_dude]

A lot to digest here.  

Did Brouwer give 100% of his 20% abilities?  Watching him try to use his stick to block a shot at the point suggests he doesn't GAF.

The 5v3 PK was the only time he was actually that good on the PK, and that's because he was able to play stationary.

Others that manned the PK were better.  Lazar better per minutes played.  Janko was a mobile player on the PK and could pressure.

 

Brouwer does nothing for me.  Waste of space on the team.  He was able to play 10 minutes on the 4th line and not look out of place, but that level of play is available in the sale part of UFA season.  Absolutely no good reason to pay him that much for that.  I don't see any skill to do anything when he's in "the right spot", otherwise he would have about 10 PPG.  He has zero.  He can't tip a single puck.  His cycle game on the PP lasts about one possession for him.  I haven't heard him say anything that isn't parroting of Gully's "we tried but couldn't finish".    

 

DO the right thing BT.  Put him out of our misery.  

[Cowtownguy]

I am not sure if Brouwer is unwilling or unable to deliver a better performance. I did not watch a lot of his games before he came to Calgary. When I did, it was usually in games between the Blues and the Flames. I did watch a playoff series he was in and he looked fantastic. He seemed to fit perfectly in their system. That Brouwer never came to Calgary. His defective clone did.

[Thebrewcrew]

I see absolutely no way that BT isn’t trading Brodie this summer. He’s the only chip we can afford to move to get a 50 point player.

 

Free agency isn’t the best option. Tavares, JVR and Neal would all be nice to add, but they’ll all have multiple teams interested. Slim chance they pick Calgary

 

If Brodie moves, I personally keep Stone around. Brodie’s departure opens a spot for Andersson. I think moving Stone is too risky at this point, who knows if Valimaki will be NHL ready

 

Also I kind of feel that he won’t buy Brouwer out, he’s still wearing an A... I can live without a buyout, he just needs to be used properly. If the coach and GM can acknowledge that he doesn’t need to play every game and is a 4th line player I’m fine with keeping him around 

[Cowtownguy]

4 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Also I kind of feel that he won’t buy Brouwer out, he’s still wearing an A... I can live without a buyout, he just needs to be used properly. If the coach and GM can acknowledge that he doesn’t need to play every game and is a 4th line player I’m fine with keeping him around 

I just hope that whoever the coach is next year, they also recognize that Brouwer is now an expensive 4th line player. This was his worst full year in the NHL in terms of points. It is striking that he managed just 22 points given all of the great ice time he was given. Put him with two cheap line mates to bring down the cost of that line.

[Thebrewcrew]

5 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I just hope that whoever the coach is next year, they also recognize that Brouwer is now an expensive 4th line player. This was his worst full year in the NHL in terms of points. It is striking that he managed just 22 points given all of the great ice time he was given. Put him with two cheap line mates to bring down the cost of that line.

Yeah, Lazar-Shore-Brouwer would be an alright 4th line. Also hope the coach realizes he isn't an every day player like GG did with Stajan at times this year. 

[MP5029]

Well I hope BT actually pays attention to his own words...Some times change can be within and it can be something simple as a change in mind set.

 

This comment speaks volumes, I have been saying this off and on all year.  In my opinion, there is some change needed on the roster, we are all mostly in agreement, the old Vets need to go.  That said, my opinion, a vet on this team should be Backlund, anyone older then him should be on the chopping block to clear room.

 

now I say this because this is a young and impressionable core that needs to find their own identity and grow together, that’s what we refer to as building team chemistry. Older then backlund guys are able to influence the mind set of the younger guys, it’s just human nature for younger tonfollow the lead of older, so when we speak of defeated attitudes and mind sets Stajain comes to mind every time and is a guy who’d the younger players respect and follow...so they are following a defeated mindset as a leader figure? Mmmm seems to me moving Stajain that’s internal mindset change right there....

 

this brings me to my unpopular point, captain change, is leadership change, and although Gio has been awesome and I advocated the flames sign him back the year he went to Russia to play, this is an Iggy situation all over again.  Take the C off his chest he is an above adverse D which is good considering his age, All things considered, he’d fetch a good return still if for no other reason then his leadership and above adverage play. Time is now before we can only get a Iggu type return.

 

this leads to the changing mentality thing, and although Many would say Mony, I disagree, he’s and awesome A but not C material (side note for those who have said he is not an elite Center, see how poor the team was, without him, that’s an elite Center, I did not Johnny Hockey pick this team up so many people have said Johnny was making Mony better I have and can now say with confidence it was Mony making Johnny better which again is an elite Center) 

 

now back on track, who should captain this team it should be a guy with a win win mentality and not a at or reserved fella (this would be only reason why I’m not in favor of Mony) so this this said, there is only ONE guy on this team that embodies a win win mentality and disputes his age and inexperience he has proven to have leadership abuiities and that Matt Tachuck (sp?) guys will follow him to the end of the earth, even our defeated vets follow his lead and there are many amazing examples of young untested leaders Just look at Crosby and before anyone says yeah but he had Lemiux mentoring him, so too has Matt from Gio and I’m good with that.

 

also the final point which everyone knows, we need a decent tandem in G, and with any luck under 30 to keep with the core age.  Proof of this is LVK, take Flurry from them I doubt they are where they are today.

 

just my 2 cents on things that would be fairly easy to change the mind set in the team and also also open not only roster spots but provide us with some trading chips to possibly use for trade bait or if nothing else help move out tougher vet contracts (yes Brewer is the obvious one, may be able to move him with Gio but the return would suck but at least Brewer would be gone and that’s a huge gain)

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I just hope that whoever the coach is next year, they also recognize that Brouwer is now an expensive 4th line player. This was his worst full year in the NHL in terms of points. It is striking that he managed just 22 points given all of the great ice time he was given. Put him with two cheap line mates to bring down the cost of that line.

 

So Brouwer is the new Stajan.