Flames Defense

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Part of the answer to defensive issues is to trade away the crap that you have.

 

 

would agree

[robrob74]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/boomer-in-the-morning/id538466684#episodeGuid=https%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.sportsnet.ca%2F%3Fp%3D13031

 

listening to Sarich he talks about his time being coached by Torts and how he taught different play situations. How they practiced situation by situation. It started at the 1:15:00 mark-ish, give or take seconds.

 

i think we need more grinding out the details and teaching how to defend in every situation. There just aren’t any details played out in the Fames’ game. I think it starts with D because they need to get the puck out. 
 

refine the game!

They’re talking about how Players can be taught to play D but they can’t be taught to be skilled. So skill could learn to play D. 
 

I think a part of it is pride and desire.

 

[Horsman1]

On 12/21/2019 at 4:18 PM, jjgallow said:

 

would agree. Gio/ Brodie.. Anderson /valamaki... what are we doing with hamonic/ hanafin... Would we be better trading them or replacing whomever is in charge of the defence as a coach cause these players look lost and so does our entire defensive scheme

 

[robrob74]

23 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

 

 

I agree! The team looks lost.

[The_People1]

I'm okay nuking the D and returning next season with only Andersson, Valimaki, and Kylington.  

 

With the money saved, we can fill the rest with UFA.  Alex Pietrangelo is the big fish this summer.  Probably asking for upwards $9-mil-per.  Captain material.  Cup experience. RHS RD top pairing. 30-years-old which is still prime for a Dman.

 

There's names like,

Shattenkirk

Gustafsson

Borowiecki

Van Reimsdyk

Forbot

Miller

Dillon

Pysyk

Edmundson

Vatanen

Barrie

Muzzin

Ceci

Krug

 

And so many more.  

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I'm okay nuking the D and returning next season with only Andersson, Valimaki, and Kylington.  

 

With the money saved, we can fill the rest with UFA.  Alex Pietrangelo is the big fish this summer.  Probably asking for upwards $9-mil-per.  Captain material.  Cup experience. RHS RD top pairing. 30-years-old which is still prime for a Dman.

 

There's names like,

Shattenkirk

Gustafsson

Borowiecki

Van Reimsdyk

Forbot

Miller

Dillon

Pysyk

Edmundson

Vatanen

Barrie

Muzzin

Ceci

Krug

 

And so many more.  

I may disagree on the names you're removing , but I fully agree you can always build a highly effective D in the offseason 

Right or wrong tho, I don't see Gio ever wearing another jersey.. if he doesn't retire at the end if this contract he'll resign cheap and drop down the order and minutes ..he's a homegrown success story, I can't see the team taking that from him 

[cross16]

Those are ALOT of very avg dmen on that list. I think you would be thoroughly disappointed if the Flames decided to rebuild their d core around those guys in FA. Pietrangelo is the exception and i think the chances are low he leaves the Blues. 

 

I think the problems that have developed lately on D are more system/coaching related then player. This was a team that was a very good defensive team under Gulutzan and last year and into the start of this year was a very good defensive team under Peters as well. I don't think that suddenly the same players who executed fine under different coaches suddenly forgot how to play defense. The only issues , in terms of personnel, I see is Hamonic has slowed down and ecome less effective as has Gio. Maybe gio is age, maybe he's trying to do too much but 2 of your top 4 dmen taking a step back has made an impact. I still think Gio is find and the issues are more he has been trying to do too much and not execute but I do point to coaching for a majority of the team defense issues. 

 

It's also accountability. I understand that star offensive players don't want to play defense and i'm fine with that. But it's up to your leaders and your coaching staff to not give them an option and that level of accountability has not existed for some time in Calgary IMO. 

[The_People1]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Those are ALOT of very avg dmen on that list. 

 

Fair but here's a list of more average Dmen.

 

Hamonic

Brodie

Hanifin

Stone

 

With the exception of Giordanio, we have to accept our D isn't that talented.

 

Grab the extra 2nd and 3rd round picks (or even a couple 1sts for Giordano), and then at worse go sideways via UFA.  You know what I mean?  Just purge right now and come back next season literally no worse.

[cross16]

17 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Fair but here's a list of more average Dmen.

 

Hamonic

Brodie

Hanifin

Stone

 

With the exception of Giordanio, we have to accept our D isn't that talented.

 

Grab the extra 2nd and 3rd round picks (or even a couple 1sts for Giordano), and then at worse go sideways via UFA.  You know what I mean?  Just purge right now and come back next season literally no worse.

 

Agree on Hamonic and Stone, as I've said I don't want them back and would trade Hamonic for sure.

 

Disagree on Brodie/Hanifin. Krug is the only player on that list I would take over those 2 (excluding Pietrangelo and Muzzin as both I don't think make it to UFA) and I think Krug is going to be pricey. The rest of that list is mostly 3rd pairing guys or guys I would put at par or below Brodie/Hanifin. Barrie and Ceci are arguable but both comes with some serious warts and you may wind up paying them more than your paying Hanifin. 

 

I do get where you are going but I just think you are downplaying he current d and overrating what is out there. In that scenario I think you come back more expensive and less talented. 

[travel_dude]

I think that Hamonic is a no-brainer to trade.

Stone doesn't get you anything, and he's just here for the rest of the year.

Emergency 7th D is fine.

That's all he is.

 

I would keep Brodie just because I think he takes too much flak for mistakes.

He's not physical, but he does defend well most times.

[cross16]

Very interesting article in the Athletic that attempts to find the best puck moving dmen in the league. They looked at things like success rate at entering and exiting the zone as well and their numbers moving the puck up the ice. Not only do I think the Flames best dman will surprise you but I think his ranking will really surprise....

 

Flames best damn in this analysis was... Rasmus Anderson. And not only is he the Flames best dman he is in he top 10 for the articles analysis. Long story short, he is showing up as one of the best puck moving dman in the NHL. 

 

What is also encouraging is they published who just missed the cut and 3 other Flames dman were on it (Gio, Brodie and Hanifin). Behind a pay wall so i don't to post much more but found it interesting. While I was surprised to see Rasmus so high It was good confirmation that the Flames D is very adept at moving the puck. This isn't the first analysis i've seen where they've shown up like this. 

Edit: in looking back i see JTech posted an article that looked at this as well. They used different data but arrived a similar conclusion in terms of the Flames have players rank high in this category. 

 

https://theathletic.com/1892364/2020/07/09/by-the-numbers-identifying-the-nhls-best-puck-moving-defensemen/?article_source=search&redirected=1

[robrob74]

43 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Very interesting article in the Athletic that attempts to find the best puck moving dmen in the league. They looked at things like success rate at entering and exiting the zone as well and their numbers moving the puck up the ice. Not only do I think the Flames best dman will surprise you but I think his ranking will really surprise....

 

Flames best damn in this analysis was... Rasmus Anderson. And not only is he the Flames best dman he is in he top 10 for the articles analysis. Long story short, he is showing up as one of the best puck moving dman in the NHL. 

 

What is also encouraging is they published who just missed the cut and 3 other Flames dman were on it (Gio, Brodie and Hanifin). Behind a pay wall so i don't to post much more but found it interesting. While I was surprised to see Rasmus so high It was good confirmation that the Flames D is very adept at moving the puck. This isn't the first analysis i've seen where they've shown up like this. 

Edit: in looking back i see JTech posted an article that looked at this as well. They used different data but arrived a similar conclusion in terms of the Flames have players rank high in this category. 

 

https://theathletic.com/1892364/2020/07/09/by-the-numbers-identifying-the-nhls-best-puck-moving-defensemen/?article_source=search&redirected=1

 

that's great news, especially if they’d like to move a guy like Hanifin and upgrade the right side. I guess you gotta be sure that Valamaki or Kylington is ready or any other D guys are.
 

But getting value for Hanifin and saving some of his Cap could fix somewhere else on the roster and maybe open a spot for a D signing (Pietrangelo).

[ABC923]

It will be interesting to see what the flames do this offseason.  By my eye, Hamonic is on a serious downtrend and would be risky to bring back.  With the flat cap, I think a lot of UFAs will have to settle for less than usual this year, so I could see Brodie re-signing for basically the same cap he has right now.  We'll get Valimaki back, so I would agree that Hanifin is expendable, probably as part of a package in a larger trade.  It would be great if we could trim the cost of our defense moving forward.

[travel_dude]

51 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Very interesting article in the Athletic that attempts to find the best puck moving dmen in the league. They looked at things like success rate at entering and exiting the zone as well and their numbers moving the puck up the ice. Not only do I think the Flames best dman will surprise you but I think his ranking will really surprise....

 

Flames best damn in this analysis was... Rasmus Anderson. And not only is he the Flames best dman he is in he top 10 for the articles analysis. Long story short, he is showing up as one of the best puck moving dman in the NHL. 

 

What is also encouraging is they published who just missed the cut and 3 other Flames dman were on it (Gio, Brodie and Hanifin). Behind a pay wall so i don't to post much more but found it interesting. While I was surprised to see Rasmus so high It was good confirmation that the Flames D is very adept at moving the puck. This isn't the first analysis i've seen where they've shown up like this. 

Edit: in looking back i see JTech posted an article that looked at this as well. They used different data but arrived a similar conclusion in terms of the Flames have players rank high in this category. 

 

https://theathletic.com/1892364/2020/07/09/by-the-numbers-identifying-the-nhls-best-puck-moving-defensemen/?article_source=search&redirected=1

 

Where I found that Ras excelled much higher than any other Flame was his ability to hold the blueline.

Extra man situations, last minute of play in a tied or one goal down game, there was no other player I would want to see out there.

The coaches recognized that pretty early this year.

 

He's not without warts, but he brings what Hamonic offers (stand up for team - "BOOM"), smart coverage and offensive instincts.

I remember reading that when MCDavid was on the ice with him, the coverage limited anything he was doing.  

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

It will be interesting to see what the flames do this offseason.  By my eye, Hamonic is on a serious downtrend and would be risky to bring back.  With the flat cap, I think a lot of UFAs will have to settle for less than usual this year, so I could see Brodie re-signing for basically the same cap he has right now.  We'll get Valimaki back, so I would agree that Hanifin is expendable, probably as part of a package in a larger trade.  It would be great if we could trim the cost of our defense moving forward.

 

Keeping in mind the expansion draft, I would hope that they are protecting a RHS D-man over Hanifin.

In other words, make the trade and upgrade the position.

It's possible they don't protect Gio, but it would be nice if we had a 3rd D-man protected that you can build a team around.

 

In a perfect world, we target Pietrangelo and use Hanifin to get a RW or RHS-C.

The Flames biggest roster problem is defense.

If we fixed that alone we would be closer to contender than just trading or signing forwards.

Scoring is not the biggest problem.

When everyone is clicking, we can lead the league in scoring.

Clean up the defense and even being a middle pack scoring team wins a lot more games.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Keeping in mind the expansion draft, I would hope that they are protecting a RHS D-man over Hanifin.

In other words, make the trade and upgrade the position.

It's possible they don't protect Gio, but it would be nice if we had a 3rd D-man protected that you can build a team around.

 

In a perfect world, we target Pietrangelo and use Hanifin to get a RW or RHS-C.

The Flames biggest roster problem is defense.

If we fixed that alone we would be closer to contender than just trading or signing forwards.

Scoring is not the biggest problem.

When everyone is clicking, we can lead the league in scoring.

Clean up the defense and even being a middle pack scoring team wins a lot more games.

 

?was it Peeps or someone else who suggests:

 

Hanifin for Kapanen 

 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Kapanen 

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm 

Lucic, Ryan, Mangiapane

Bennett, Dube, Gawdin

 

sign Pietrangelo 

 

Giordano, Pietrangelo 

Valamaki, Andersson
Kylington, 

need a 3rd pair RD 

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

?was it Peeps or someone else who suggests:

 

Hanifin for Kapanen 

 

Can't take credit for that.  It's been suggested the whole year by many others.  Also, Kapanen would not be my first choice if there were options.  Kinda a last resort trade.

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

sign Pietrangelo 

 

Instantly solves all our problems on D doesn't it?

[robrob74]

24 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Can't take credit for that.  It's been suggested the whole year by many others.  Also, Kapanen would not be my first choice if there were options.  Kinda a last resort trade.

 

I haven’t seen much of Kap this year. The last few seasons prior he was one we should’ve went for. 

23 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Instantly solves all our problems on D doesn't it?

Definitely! 
 

I wanted to try having Gio and Pietro on separate lines but Gio and Ras aren’t a great fit 

 

I think Kap could give some good energy to the top6. Does he have enough of a give a Satoshi Nakamoto meter this team lacks? We need more guys with that kind of energy.

 

Mange has it.

Bemnett has it when he wants to (mostly at the beginning of seasons and playoffs).

Dube - still need to see if he has it.

Tkachuk is consistent enough but would like him to have more, the last few years he’s slowed on the consistency.

Ryan - is consistent.

 

this team would be top 10 in the league if they skated with consistency and were able to defend (limit D brain farts).

 

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Definitely! 

 

I haven't checked but I guess at least 10 teams could and would like to add Pietrangelo to instantly solve all their RD problems as well.  I'm guessing at least 5 teams will make a legit offer.

 

I also guess his first preference is to stay in St Louis but the Blues are capped out.

 

Looks like $10-mil-per x 7-years will have to be the price.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I haven't checked but I guess at least 10 teams could and would like to add Pietrangelo to instantly solve all their RD problems as well.  I'm guessing at least 5 teams will make a legit offer.

 

I also guess his first preference is to stay in St Louis but the Blues are capped out.

 

Looks like $10-mil-per x 7-years will have to be the price.

 

Well 10 teams can offer, but 10 teams do not offer a potential winning team.

Of the good teams that he would make a difference on, do any of them have real needs?

BOS has Krug going UFA, and Chara is like 100.

But they have a young RD core that is pretty good anyway.

They probably could fit him in cap wise.

Who else really needs him?

COL always has cap, but has Makar who already is a #1D.

[ABC923]

Any interest in Shattenkirk? Right D, had a good bounceback this season with Tampa.  Currently making only 1.75 Million, will probably be looking to increase that, but given his age and buy-out history he could still be a budget option on RD.

[Thebrewcrew]

I would rather chase Petro than Hall.

 

The defence becomes very good. I also think it would make the forwards look better. 
 

 

The only issue if you give Petro 9+, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul, you’ll have to cheap out elsewhere, likely the backup goalie

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Any interest in Shattenkirk? Right D, had a good bounceback this season with Tampa.  Currently making only 1.75 Million, will probably be looking to increase that, but given his age and buy-out history he could still be a budget option on RD.

 

Zero interest.

[JTech780]

High praise for the new guy.

 

Would have to think Kylington's time here is pretty much done.

 

I also wonder if Hanifin becomes available soon.