Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

It's time to ask, is our D overrated?

 

I think you have to start with disecting the play and determining where the problems lie.  Indiuvdually, the D is one of the best in the league.  The way they are used, the systems they are forced to use and the situations need to be evaluated.

 

If players X and Y don't fit, then wouild player Z make a difference.

[cross16]

Personally I don't think it's time. Hamonic is still working his way in and personally I think any new acquisition takes more than 20 games to get acclimated but that's me.

 

Depends on what your benchmark was. If you were expecting one of the best D cores in the league yes, but I would probably suggest that rating was overrated to begin with. I think the Flames had a very good top 4 on paper, but a poor looking 3rd pairing. so far they've had a very good top pairing, a slightly below avg 2nd pairing (which I put a lot on Hamonic and his struggles so far) and a poor 3rd pairing. Kulak-Stone has breathed some life into that but they still arnt' great in their own end. 

 

5 on 5 so far this year:

11th in Corsi Against

26th in Fenwick agaisnt

17th in Shots Against

13th in scoring chances against

10th in High danger scoring chances against. 

 

I expected a top 10 blue line/defensive team this year and so far I would saw the results suggest they are about middle of the pack, so a little below but the trend the last 10 games is more positive (obviously throwing out last nights game). If Hamonic can stabilize I think they'll be appropriately rated. 

[420since1974]

A little below the "middle of the pack" is where the team is in the league standings (16th in points).

 

In the summer, I thought that the Flames had a Top 10 D on paper, so far they have to pick it up some to get there.

[travel_dude]

The biggest issue for me right now is the PK.  Inability to stop a goal.  8 goals on 13 tries recently.  That's worse than not good..  They need to fix whatever system that's creating this problem or look at the mistakes they make while executing it.  Allowing easy zone entries isn't helping.  

[JTech780]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

The biggest issue for me right now is the PK.  Inability to stop a goal.  8 goals on 13 tries recently.  That's worse than not good..  They need to fix whatever system that's creating this problem or look at the mistakes they make while executing it.  Allowing easy zone entries isn't helping.  

 

To me it looks like everyone is trying to do too much on the PK, instead of playing their position, guys are getting into chase mode, which opens up a lot of seems for the other teams PP. It's one thing to be aggressive, but if it takes you out of your position or lane than you are over commiting and you better be darn sure that you are getting the puck.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

To me it looks like everyone is trying to do too much on the PK, instead of playing their position, guys are getting into chase mode, which opens up a lot of seems for the other teams PP. It's one thing to be aggressive, but if it takes you out of your position or lane than you are over commiting and you better be darn sure that you are getting the puck.

I agree JT it seems like our defensemen want to be goalies and our forwards are getting out of top box over persuing at times. I agree with cross, mostly we need Hamonic's play to be much better. The other thing I would say is Hamilton needs to step up his effort, not that he is doing much wrong but he isn't doing much extra either. We could use some offense from him.

I like the pairings because I think the stabilizing forces of Giordano, Hamonic and Stone helps the ones they are playing with now.

[cross16]

I think the PK is too soft, particularly at the blueline. For any PK I think it's tough to stop a PP once they are in the zone and set up so stop them at the blueline or at least make it difficult. I thought last year the Flames did a good job in the neutral zone to at least protect the line and make an entry more challenging but now it seems like they are just letting teams walk right in and set up. Even if you have perfect execution in your own zone, letting a team set up so easily is likely going to lead to alot of issues on your PK. 

 

But I agree, the PK is the biggest issue with this team. so even though the team results look pretty meh I think the team defense has been stronger than it appears. Goal scoring and the PK are the two biggest reason why this team isn't performing better right now IMO. 

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the PK is too soft, particularly at the blueline. For any PK I think it's tough to stop a PP once they are in the zone and set up so stop them at the blueline or at least make it difficult. I thought last year the Flames did a good job in the neutral zone to at least protect the line and make an entry more challenging but now it seems like they are just letting teams walk right in and set up. Even if you have perfect execution in your own zone, letting a team set up so easily is likely going to lead to alot of issues on your PK. 

 

But I agree, the PK is the biggest issue with this team. so even though the team results look pretty meh I think the team defense has been stronger than it appears. Goal scoring and the PK are the two biggest reason why this team isn't performing better right now IMO. 

Just my thinking but I look for the players that have speed, quickness and great anticipation to get the puck or break up the opposition's PP patterns. As forwards those players IMO are Backlund, Frolik, Bennett and Lazar. On the back end I would say Hamonic / Brodie and Stone/ Giordano, one pushes out as the puck is on their side the other has to take care of the back door with help from the forward that side. Let the Goalie do his job and stay out of the way.

[robrob74]

On 2017-11-16 at 0:38 PM, The_People1 said:

It's time to ask, is our D overrated?

 

Our D could be the best offensive minded D in the league if it was utilized to its extent. But our D has always been brain-fart specialists. I don’t know if that’s systems or our personnel? We aren’t tough enough defensively.  

 

Finally I see Hamonic making guys pay for the extra shot/stickwork on our goalies... but still, there’s something about our coverage...

[MAC331]

17 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Our D could be the best offensive minded D in the league if it was utilized to its extent. But our D has always been brain-fart specialists. I don’t know if that’s systems or our personnel? We aren’t tough enough defensively.  

 

Finally I see Hamonic making guys pay for the extra shot/stickwork on our goalies... but still, there’s something about our coverage...

I hate to say it but here goes, Hamilton is slow and lazy on defense, Brodie is reckless and out of position a lot and Kulak is doing ok but still learning on the job. Hamonic and Stone simply have to up their game and be better than shown so far. Giordano has been solid I think. I don't think Hamilton and Brodie will ever change so it will be up to their pairing partners to pick up their deficiencies.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I hate to say it but here goes, Hamilton is slow and lazy on defense, Brodie is reckless and out of position a lot and Kulak is doing ok but still learning on the job. Hamonic and Stone simply have to up their game and be better than shown so far. Giordano has been solid I think. I don't think Hamilton and Brodie will ever change so it will be up to their pairing partners to pick up their deficiencies.

 

I can see that... 

is it worth it to trade sideways to get someone more defensively aware, all-round?

 

 

[MAC331]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

I can see that... 

is it worth it to trade sideways to get someone more defensively aware, all-round?

 

 

Hard to say which is why I think the pairings have to recognize the weaknesses that exist.

[Cowtownguy]

On November 16, 2017 at 1:38 PM, The_People1 said:

It's time to ask, is our D overrated?

I wonder if it is a case they they are trying to do too much because of how they look on paper. They sure seem to get caught short a lot. Frequently, they are completely out of position.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I wonder if it is a case they they are trying to do too much because of how they look on paper. They sure seem to get caught short a lot. Frequently, they are completely out of position.

That doesn't make sense.

 

They look good on paper because they are good players.  Top 5 as good individuals as any team's top 5.  Their usage and the style of play dictates how well they do as units. 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 11/16/2017 at 1:38 PM, The_People1 said:

It's time to ask, is our D overrated?

It was wayyyy over rated when we picked up Hamilton. It is still over rated with Hamonic.. at least from the general Flames Fans perspective.

 

You just don't hear much about the Flames D being among the best in most other hockey areas...

Smith has been standing on his head albeit with hiccups lately and our D has played middle of the pack,

[MAC331]

16 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

It was wayyyy over rated when we picked up Hamilton. It is still over rated with Hamonic.. at least from the general Flames Fans perspective.

 

You just don't hear much about the Flames D being among the best in most other hockey areas...

Smith has been standing on his head albeit with hiccups lately and our D has played middle of the pack,

I would have to agree with everyone having to play much better and can, which is the good part. The larger question IMO is when does puck possession become a priority with this group ? As a team we are way to loose and reckless with the puck and we seem to be defending way more than we should be.

[robrob74]

On 2017-11-18 at 1:44 PM, MAC331 said:

I would have to agree with everyone having to play much better and can, which is the good part. The larger question IMO is when does puck possession become a priority with this group ? As a team we are way to loose and reckless with the puck and we seem to be defending way more than we should be.

 

But Cross keeps quoting stats that say otherwise. I don’t watch every game, but I listen when I can... it doesn’t always sound and look possession-y.

 

 

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

But Cross keeps quoting stats that say otherwise. I don’t watch every game, but I listen when I can... it doesn’t always sound and look possession-y.

 

 

Maybe I am referring to the times they are loose and reckless when I watch. LOL

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

But Cross keeps quoting stats that say otherwise. I don’t watch every game, but I listen when I can... it doesn’t always sound and look possession-y.

 

 

 

I think that's likely two fold.

1- they are terrible on the PK so anytime you watch/listen and have they have multiple PK it will look terrible.

2 - when they've been bad it's pretty bad. It's not like they have a slight off night, they have  really poor night. Not a lot of in between.

 

Generally speaking 5 on 5 the Flames are pretty sound and they definitely play a possession oriented game.  

[robrob74]

Like in this game, Smith saves our checking from behind and it can easily have been 3-0 caps

[ABC923]

One thing I'll just through out there, is it possible our D are actually quite good but lack sufficient support from the forward group?  Team defense is more than just the guys on the back-end after all, and if centers aren't helping out properly or wingers aren't covering their points or struggle to get the puck out when it comes to them, it can make a solid d-core look worse.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

Like in this game, Smith saves our checking from behind and it can easily have been 3-0 caps

 

Holtby saves two close in, where the Flames were stickhandling in the crease almost.  Bennett.  Freddie.

And there were a couple of chances just slightly off.

The Flames easily could have had 2-3 more.

 

Both goalies were very good.  The Flames have started taking over games with their offense and smart defensive plays, including Smith's.  

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Holtby saves two close in, where the Flames were stickhandling in the crease almost.  Bennett.  Freddie.

And there were a couple of chances just slightly off.

The Flames easily could have had 2-3 more.

 

Both goalies were very good.  The Flames have started taking over games with their offense and smart defensive plays, including Smith's.  

 

I was referring to the first five min or so in the game. Meaning, Smith saves our butts, allow us a chance and then the rest was history. It was a great game in the end.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was referring to the first five min or so in the game. Meaning, Smith saves our butts, allow us a chance and then the rest was history. It was a great game in the end.

You are absolutely correct.  We were able to even it up about 3 minutes after the 1st goal against.  Before that it was a little ugly.

[phoenix66]

So far Smith is giving me flashbacks to Kipper-- in the sense that the biggest change Kipper made is he kept us in games early , until we got over our notorious slow starts.

I am curious tho, while we do still seem to be getting a high number of shots allowed, what are the quality of those shots in comparison to last year ?  Anybody know the High / medium/ Low danger breakdown as compared to last year ?