Flames Defense

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sure, but that was ages ago.  Point out a few examples of how Engelland curtailed this.  Seems to me that teams were more watchful of Ferland than Engelland.

But people remember him grabbing two Canucks and seem to think he was the ultimate warrior.  I will miss him for his PK and team spirit more than his "protecting" people on the team.  Big Ern was the last player we had that was a nuclear threat.  

I begrudgingly have to agree. The Instigator penalty in my mind has ruined the game, but it is what it is. Yes knowing Engelland was there was sometimes enough, but in the end it didn't stop the Kessler's of the world from cheap shotting the good players . He was / is probably the last of the "enforcers"  who can actually  play the game.

 

What's taken over is "team toughness".. every player on this team needs to learn to make their own space. Just once I'd like to see Johnny spear a guy like Kesler in the nads.. take the suspension, guaranteed he gets more room going forward .

 

The league also needs to crack down on teams , like Anaheim , who's MO is " we are going to commit so many infractions you cant possibly call them all ".. play a couple games on a continuous 5 on 3 and you will see it stop in a hurry 

[Cowtownguy]

6 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I begrudgingly have to agree. The Instigator penalty in my mind has ruined the game, but it is what it is. Yes knowing Engelland was there was sometimes enough, but in the end it didn't stop the Kessler's of the world from cheap shotting the good players . He was / is probably the last of the "enforcers"  who can actually  play the game.

 

What's taken over is "team toughness".. every player on this team needs to learn to make their own space. Just once I'd like to see Johnny spear a guy like Kesler in the nads.. take the suspension, guaranteed he gets more room going forward .

 

The league also needs to crack down on teams , like Anaheim , who's MO is " we are going to commit so many infractions you cant possibly call them all ".. play a couple games on a continuous 5 on 3 and you will see it stop in a hurry 

Not sure about the team toughness part. That sounds more like you are on your own and don't expect much from the refs. Your latter comment in bold seems more appropriate. Somehow, Anaheim gets away with it, or rather, the refs let them get away with it. The officiating sucked this year even in series where I didn't care too much about the outcome. If the choice is that or fighting, I will take the fighting.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, Cowtownguy said:

Not sure about the team toughness part. That sounds more like you are on your own and don't expect much from the refs. Your latter comment in bold seems more appropriate. Somehow, Anaheim gets away with it, or rather, the refs let them get away with it. The officiating sucked this year even in series where I didn't care too much about the outcome. If the choice is that or fighting, I will take the fighting.

Oh I agree, and remember I'm a guy that believes the best way to cleanup the sport is to have the enforcer role brought back and the Instigator eliminated.. but the powers that be have done too good of a job to get them out of the game so now the weasels are on the loose.

 

and yes, its pretty apparent nowadays you cant rely on the refs

 

We have a good number of players who will get right back in your face if you get in theirs.. and a handful who just arent that way (Johnny, Stajan) Even Frolik will stand up for himself..Cant recall if it was last year or the year before, it was  like one game Backlund lost his mind and started fighting people.. now he gets more respect

 what needs to happen is it cant just be one guy anymore. 

Even Sidney has evolved- he used to just cower and whine.. now he pile drives PK's face to the ice

 

Johnny gets cheap shotted?.. Ferland needs to hit somebody ..  ditto Tkachuk , Bouma.. 

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sure, but that was ages ago.  Point out a few examples of how Engelland curtailed this.  Seems to me that teams were more watchful of Ferland than Engelland.

But people remember him grabbing two Canucks and seem to think he was the ultimate warrior.  I will miss him for his PK and team spirit more than his "protecting" people on the team.  Big Ern was the last player we had that was a nuclear threat.  

If that is all you remember and witnessed I am not going to waste my time with you on this.

[travel_dude]

Some numbers to compare Hamonic to Demers:

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

If this hamonic deal is for real, which no reason to believe it isent.

 

Do we have a great top 4 now or what?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

If this hamonic deal is for real, which no reason to believe it isent.

 

Do we have a great top 4 now or what?

 

There's a thread all about him.  Lots of discussion.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 6/22/2017 at 7:32 PM, phoenix66 said:

I begrudgingly have to agree. The Instigator penalty in my mind has ruined the game, but it is what it is. Yes knowing Engelland was there was sometimes enough, but in the end it didn't stop the Kessler's of the world from cheap shotting the good players . He was / is probably the last of the "enforcers"  who can actually  play the game.

 

What's taken over is "team toughness".. every player on this team needs to learn to make their own space. Just once I'd like to see Johnny spear a guy like Kesler in the nads.. take the suspension, guaranteed he gets more room going forward .

 

The league also needs to crack down on teams , like Anaheim , who's MO is " we are going to commit so many infractions you cant possibly call them all ".. play a couple games on a continuous 5 on 3 and you will see it stop in a hurry 

Sid this and did not even get a penalty let alone a suspension.

 

 

 

[phoenix66]

8 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Sid this and did not even get a penalty let alone a suspension.

 

 

 

LOL.. i forgot about this 

and you know what ?.. Good for him

 

I'm not a lover of cheap shots , and God knows Sid has done his share of whining , moaning , diving etc..   but to see what these top players put up with , with literally no recourse to the offender , if the league is going to take away the ability for players to police themselves,  They have to start doing this more .

 

We'll see if they really do crack down on the slashing next year  or not.. but even if they do , it's still likely back to open season in the playoffs .

 

When i see a guy like Kesler, turtle and duck everybody so that he can have a swordfight with Frolik, its unfortunately the only answer. 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

LOL.. i forgot about this 

and you know what ?.. Good for him

 

I'm not a lover of cheap shots , and God knows Sid has done his share of whining , moaning , diving etc..   but to see what these top players put up with , with literally no recourse to the offender , if the league is going to take away the ability for players to police themselves,  They have to start doing this more .

 

We'll see if they really do crack down on the slashing next year  or not.. but even if they do , it's still likely back to open season in the playoffs .

 

When i see a guy like Kesler, turtle and duck everybody so that he can have a swordfight with Frolik, its unfortunately the only answer. 

 

Sorry, but a nut shot is dirtier than anything that Kesler does.  Most of the time....

 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sorry, but a nut shot is dirtier than anything that Kesler does.  Most of the time....

 

Id have to dig back, but if I recall O'reilly had been whacking at him a few times that game.. but not 100% sure

 

but seriously, the heck with Byng trophies.. Johnny needs to start doing this .. they should make Theoren Fleury his personal trainer.  Just like St Louis, he made his own space as well.

[phoenix66]

you can always find humor on the OIlers Boards.. seriously just saw this :

 

"LOL. Like I said in another thread, I would take the Oiler d over the Flames d every day of the week."

 

I get it's good to be a fan of your team .. but man , what are they putting in the Kool Aid up there ??

some days its so hard not to troll....

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

you can always find humor on the OIlers Boards.. seriously just saw this :

 

"LOL. Like I said in another thread, I would take the Oiler d over the Flames d every day of the week."

 

I get it's good to be a fan of your team .. but man , what are they putting in the Kool Aid up there ??

some days its so hard not to troll....

 

Some love Russell for his shot blocking and warrior ethic, like many did here.  That's fine.  He made them better than they were in a lottery spot.

They have Sekera and Larsson, basically a 2nd pairing guy now and a potential 1st pairing guy in Larsson.

They have Klefbom, who is a good player.  Not sure if  would call him a top 2.  He has a wicked shot.

They have Nurse and Benning, who have potential but can make bonehead plays most nights.

 

SO, I would say they have a decent set of players.  Not all-star.  Enough to go deep in the playoffs?  Nope.  No depth at all.  

Russell without Sekera is just a good 3rd pairing guy that can block shots. 

[The_People1]

So now that we know our top two pairings, who should be on our bottom pair? 

 

Bartkowski - Andersson, looks kind of weak to me.  Two offensive minded D for a bottom pair when the Flames should have ample scoring from their D in the top 4.

 

Hope Michael Stone comes to the realization that he's not the $4-mil player he was in Arizona and signs a $1.5-mil one year "prove it" contract.  I'd much prefer Stone's size and steadiness.

 

I think the bottom pair should be a steady, reliable, nothing fancy couple.  I think we should try for a Kulak - Stone combo.

 

[cross16]

Personally I like the idea of a Kulak-Andersson pairing. I get they are both young but imo smart and your only asking for 15 mins a night. Start playing these young dman and giving them a shot, I don't like the idea of brining stone back. 

 

Worst case you can always pick up veteran dman during the season if they struggle. 

[The_People1]

About Brodie, I was pretty hard on him last season because he was given every opportunity to be the Flames #1 D but largely failed thanks to Wideman.  Brodie was Top 3 in the league as a minus player until Stone arrived.

 

And then near the end of the season i found out his wife was diagnosed with MS.  I felt this affected his play... Probably more than anything else, including Wideman.  

 

http://globalnews.ca/news/3130450/flames-defenceman-t-j-brodies-fiancee-is-putting-ms-on-ice/
 

What should we expect this season?  I hope he has put the emotions of his wife's MS behind him and he can overcome it all. 

 

Then, in comes Hamonic who said he wanted to be closer to home for family reasons.  Rumors were a grandfather or close Uncle is terminally ill... Or something like that.  Not sure if anyone can confirm.

 

But hey, you unite two tremendously talented hockey players together who have personal family issues to deal with.  Hopefully the beginnings of some bromance and they can lean on one another for support.

[JTech780]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Personally I like the idea of a Kulak-Andersson pairing. I get they are both young but imo smart and your only asking for 15 mins a night. Start playing these young dman and giving them a shot, I don't like the idea of brining stone back. 

 

Worst case you can always pick up veteran dman during the season if they struggle. 

 

I agree. With Hamonic in the fold we have 4 top end defensemen that we can really lean on, allowing us to shelter Kulak and Andersson putting them out there for offensive zone faceoffs in low leverage situations while they get their footing.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Personally I like the idea of a Kulak-Andersson pairing. I get they are both young but imo smart and your only asking for 15 mins a night. Start playing these young dman and giving them a shot, I don't like the idea of brining stone back. 

 

Worst case you can always pick up veteran dman during the season if they struggle. 

 

That would be the most sensible from a cap and development perspective.  Also need to show the farm hands that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

Interesting article on flames from 80 feet reference the progression of our D corp over time.

 

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2017/06/six-year-plan-two-new-additions.html<------For anyone interested.

 

A little clipping from the article.

2017-18

Giordano (33) - Hamilton (24)

Brodie (27) - Hamonic (27)

2018-19

Giordano (34) - Hamilton (25)

Brodie (28) - Hamonic (28)

2019-20

Giordano (35) - Hamilton (26)

Brodie (29) - Hamonic (29)

2020-21

Brodie (30) - Hamilton (27)

Giordano (36) - Andersson (23)

2021-22

Valimaki (23) - Brodie (31)

Giordano (37) - Andersson (24)

2022-23

Valimaki (24) - Andersson (25)

Brodie (32) - Fox (24)

 

Not a sure thing obviously, but the future could be interesting.

 

[travel_dude]

It's a reasonable assumption that we could lose both Dougie and Hamonic.  On the other hand, how many defensive core players walk away like that.

 

[Flyerfan52]

5 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

LOL.. i forgot about this 

and you know what ?.. Good for him

 

I'm not a lover of cheap shots , and God knows Sid has done his share of whining , moaning , diving etc..   but to see what these top players put up with , with literally no recourse to the offender , if the league is going to take away the ability for players to police themselves,  They have to start doing this more .

 

We'll see if they really do crack down on the slashing next year  or not.. but even if they do , it's still likely back to open season in the playoffs .

 

When i see a guy like Kesler, turtle and duck everybody so that he can have a swordfight with Frolik, its unfortunately the only answer. 

The 2 high-lighted seem opposites.

That wasn't the 1st time Crosby speared a guy in the yi-yis. It seems to be his go-to these days.

I remember 1 game where a player had a Pen down after a fight & was just sort of sitting on him waiting for the ref to come escort them to to box when Cindy skated by behind & gave that player a hard spear to the crotch. That was after a set to that had nothing to do with Crosby.

3rd highlight: How do you justify Crosby's slash to Melhot that cost him his finger tip? Is slashing just bad when it happens to a star forward or is it equally bad when "The face of the League" does it?  The slashes Gaudreau gets take him off his game but haven't cost him a digit.

 

I always saw Malkin as the slew-footing weasel but @ least he gained a little respect from me when he dropped the gloves with Wheeler & took his beating like a man. Crosby would have run crying to the refs & then jabbed Wheeler in the nether region 1st chance he had.

 

If the NHL really wanted to take the dirty out of the game recind the instigator penalty. Penalize the "Sideshow Bob" fights between designated 3 minute or under  heavyweights that don't play a full shift but allow a Ferland to show someone that slashes Gaudreau that he finds that unacceptable & give him the what for without getting the extra minutes & probable suspension. I think it was Clark Gilles (a more than secent player himself) that on the Isles dynasty skated up to a player on the opposing team (Boston if memory serves me) & told him that unless they laid off the dirty stuff on Bossy (clean checks were fine) he was going to drag their star to center ice & beat him to a pulp. If it happened a 2nd time he'd do the same with the 2nd best. The word went to the bench & Bossy wasn't recieving cheap shots anymore.

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

It's a reasonable assumption that we could lose both Dougie and Hamonic.  On the other hand, how many defensive core players walk away like that.

 

Im not sure they walk away necessarily. I guess it really depends how things shake out in a few years, maybe we move on from gio who knows 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

The 2 high-lighted seem opposites.

That wasn't the 1st time Crosby speared a guy in the yi-yis. It seems to be his go-to these days.

I remember 1 game where a player had a Pen down after a fight & was just sort of sitting on him waiting for the ref to come escort them to to box when Cindy skated by behind & gave that player a hard spear to the crotch. That was after a set to that had nothing to do with Crosby.

3rd highlight: How do you justify Crosby's slash to Melhot that cost him his finger tip? Is slashing just bad when it happens to a star forward or is it equally bad when "The face of the League" does it?  The slashes Gaudreau gets take him off his game but haven't cost him a digit.

 

I always saw Malkin as the slew-footing weasel but @ least he gained a little respect from me when he dropped the gloves with Wheeler & took his beating like a man. Crosby would have run crying to the refs & then jabbed Wheeler in the nether region 1st chance he had.

 

If the NHL really wanted to take the dirty out of the game recind the instigator penalty. Penalize the "Sideshow Bob" fights between designated 3 minute or under  heavyweights that don't play a full shift but allow a Ferland to show someone that slashes Gaudreau that he finds that unacceptable & give him the what for without getting the extra minutes & probable suspension. I think it was Clark Gilles (a more than secent player himself) that on the Isles dynasty skated up to a player on the opposing team (Boston if memory serves me) & told him that unless they laid off the dirty stuff on Bossy (clean checks were fine) he was going to drag their star to center ice & beat him to a pulp. If it happened a 2nd time he'd do the same with the 2nd best. The word went to the bench & Bossy wasn't recieving cheap shots anymore.

you have to take the paragraph in its entirety.. i don't believe in running around just cheap shotting people, but in retaliation , even after the fact .. go for it.

If its the initial offence, then they , including Crosby , should be nailed for it

 

And that's exactly it, either recind the instigator, or let these guys defend themselves. Even in the old days , I never agreed with a player like Kenny Linseman , pulling a cheapshot and then having Semenko fight a battle for him. Like Tkachuk, he faced his own music .. that will only get him respect around the league.

[kehatch]

The challenge of putting a couple of kids on the bottom pairing is that you have no depth if there is an injury. I would prefer to see Stone, Fransen, or someone like that paired with one of the kids. Gives us depth when an inevitable injury occurs.

[manu11]

22 minutes ago, kehatch said:

The challenge of putting a couple of kids on the bottom pairing is that you have no depth if there is an injury. I would prefer to see Stone, Fransen, or someone like that paired with one of the kids. Gives us depth when an inevitable injury occurs.

 

A guy like Quincey could also be a cheap vet that can play top4 in a pinch