Flames Defense

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

They get points for figuring out McDavid was a good pick?

Nope. For finally figuring out that a decade of sucking was useless until they landed 1 worth being taken 1st.

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Nope. For finally figuring out that a decade of sucking was useless until they landed 1 worth being taken 1st.

 

 

One thing that these playoffs and most good teams are showing us is the importance of a good or poor D. When you're developing a team, you need a good D, I mean, the Avs not developing their D, nor the Oil.

 

we are a tad ahead of the Oil, just cause the D is slight. They have better goaltending and our start put us behind. 

 

We are not leaps and bounds ahead, and could be even. 

 

But regardless, tough D is important. If we want to compete, we have to develop the d further. 

 

 

[MAC331]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

One thing that these playoffs and most good teams are showing us is the importance of a good or poor D. When you're developing a team, you need a good D, I mean, the Avs not developing their D, nor the Oil.

 

we are a tad ahead of the Oil, just cause the D is slight. They have better goaltending and our start put us behind. 

 

We are not leaps and bounds ahead, and could be even. 

 

But regardless, tough D is important. If we want to compete, we have to develop the d further. 

 

 

I agree robrob in that we are not heads and shoulders above EDM's talent level with Talbot providing an advantage. This is an important offseason for us IMO to get our goal selections right and add some key defensemen. I would like to see 3 defensemen added that have some edge to them to go with the 3 we have now.

Could we get Brett Pesce from CAR for Stajan C and Mangiapane LW ? they need some young offensive threats.

Could we get Dalton Prout from NJD for Bouma LW and Shinkaruk LW ?

This would go a long way to shore up our RSD situation.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I agree robrob in that we are not heads and shoulders above EDM's talent level with Talbot providing an advantage. This is an important offseason for us IMO to get our goal selections right and add some key defensemen. I would like to see 3 defensemen added that have some edge to them to go with the 3 we have now.

Could we get Brett Pesce from CAR for Stajan C and Mangiapane LW ? they need some young offensive threats.

Could we get Dalton Prout from NJD for Bouma LW and Shinkaruk LW ?

This would go a long way to shore up our RSD situation.

 

I don't really know those players but if they do the trick! 

 

See, that one game we were up 4-1 we were one hit away from knocking a few guys out of the game. When we stopped playing, out mental toughness shown through. 

 

GG needed to send an energy line out to change momentum. Plus I think our D needed to be tougher. 

 

I dont one think I would re-sign Engelland unless we knew he was playing injured.

[jjgallow]

15 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Nope. For finally figuring out that a decade of sucking was useless until they landed 1 worth being taken 1st.

 

Lol....fair enough.  But I would argue that's yet to be determined

[jjgallow]

So, with Jan Rutta, here's the thing.

 

It just really feels like these become emotional and poor signings when multiple teams start bidding, and I can't help but wonder if it has more to do with the showmanship of the agent than the play of the player.

 

I do realize that it sounds cocky, given that scouts are supposedly involved (although none of us could name one that is).    But the bottom line is that, when you look at the track record of these deals, with the Flames and the league, it is Not good.  It's bad.   Quite definitively.   Especially when we're talking about players in their late 20's, and especially when the league is questionable, and Especially when they're not already clearly dominant in that league (and Rutta isn't).   It's just a reallity we go through every year.

 

I do think there are players to be had.   An example:  Yevgeni Lisovets   http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=70449

 

As far as I can tell he is performing at a vastly superior level to Rutta.  LIke, not even close.   He's just as big, and just as physical, and stands a much better chance at being plugged into an NHL lineup.   I realize there's a business end to it too...something I've never fully grasped, which probably has more to do with why Rutta is the "hot" topic right now.   It's not his play, that's for sure.

 

Yes, Rutta is a RHS.   There are those too.

 

Pavel Vorobey, for example.   RHS, Way bigger.   Performing right now, at a very similar level to what Rutta is currently.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=249111

 

Except...he's 19.  And could potentially be an NHL star one day.

 

 

I....don't get it.   

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[MAC331]

30 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I don't really know those players but if they do the trick! 

 

See, that one game we were up 4-1 we were one hit away from knocking a few guys out of the game. When we stopped playing, out mental toughness shown through. 

 

GG needed to send an energy line out to change momentum. Plus I think our D needed to be tougher. 

 

I dont one think I would re-sign Engelland unless we knew he was playing injured.

I think they would and another to consider may be one of ANA's own UFA's Holzer another RHSD. We need to look around us not only ANA has size, talent and nastiness. Our arch-rival EDM has added size, talent and nastiness. LA has always had it. VAN and ARZ are rebuilding up tp to it. SJS has always had size, talent and nastiness. We cannot afford to be the nice kids on the block with some talent.

[cross16]

I think these things need to be looked at for what they are, lottery tickets. The vast majority of college and international free agents don't pan out so whoever you sign the likelihood is they won't be a meaningful nhler and that's across the board in the NHL. There isn't a team out there that does intl and college FA better than another one it's a crapshoot. Bring in some depth and competition in spots you need it and you hope for the best, anything more is found money. 

[MAC331]

Just now, jjgallow said:

So, with Jan Rutta, here's the thing.

 

It just really feels like these become emotional and poor signings when multiple teams start bidding, and I can't help but wonder if it has more to do with the showmanship of the agent than the play of the player.

 

I do realize that it sounds cocky, given that scouts are supposedly involved (although none of us could name one that is).    But the bottom line is that, when you look at the track record of these deals, with the Flames and the league, it is Not good.  It's bad.   Quite definitively.   Especially when we're talking about players in their late 20's, and especially when the league is questionable, and Especially when they're not already clearly dominant in that league (and Rutta isn't).   It's just a reallity we go through every year.

 

I do think there are players to be had.   An example:  Yevgeni Lisovets   http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=70449

 

As far as I can tell he is performing at a vastly superior level to Rutta.  LIke, not even close.   He's just as big, and just as physical, and stands a much better chance at being plugged into an NHL lineup.   I realize there's a business end to it too...something I've never fully grasped, which probably has more to do with why Rutta is the "hot" topic right now.   It's not his play, that's for sure.

 

Yes, Rutta is a RHS.   There are those too.

 

Pavel Vorobey, for example.   RHS, Way bigger.   Performing right now, at a very similar level to what Rutta is currently.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=249111

 

Except...he's 19.  And could potentially be an NHL star one day.

 

 

I....don't get it.   

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Why do you insist when you have already received people's rebuttals. You don't make anymore sense today than yesterday

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think these things need to be looked at for what they are, lottery tickets. The vast majority of college and international free agents don't pan out so whoever you sign the likelihood is they won't be a meaningful nhler and that's tire across the board in the NHL. There isn't a team out there that does into and college FA better than another one it's a crapshoot. Bring in some depth and competition in spots you need it and you hope for the best, anything more is found money. 

 

Ya, it is the Panarins and Zeitsev (Toronto player/spelling) that I wish we could find. 

[cross16]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

Ya, it is the Panarins and Zeitsev (Toronto player/spelling) that I wish we could find. 

 

Flames were a finalist for Panarin and were close. Chose Chicago because of Toews/Kane and flames were still rebuilding. 

 

Panarin was a big bidding war, not really a find. 

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Why do you insist when you have already received people's rebuttals. You don't make anymore sense today than yesterday

 

Why do you continue to make wild accusations without any explanation (except when you did provide an explanation, which you later admitted to be nothingless).

 

Nobody's forcing you to read this thread in late May.   I'm posting my thoughts on defence on a defence thread.   If you know so much better, then just state your opinion.  Tell us all that you think Rutta is the next big star of this team.  Just get it out.

 

Otherwise, allow other people to have thoughts.   And no, my post is not the same.  I've provided examples now of players that I would vouch for if the Flames signed.   And frankly....I just don't see that in the Czech league this year.

 

My question is why you would bother spending your time complaining about other people's opinions.  Like you an opinion custodian and need to maintain opinion order, and simply don't have time to have your own opinion.

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I think they would and another to consider may be one of ANA's own UFA's Holzer another RHSD. We need to look around us not only ANA has size, talent and nastiness. Our arch-rival EDM has added size, talent and nastiness. LA has always had it. VAN and ARZ are rebuilding up tp to it. SJS has always had size, talent and nastiness. We cannot afford to be the nice kids on the block with some talent.

 

As we are now, I think we are close. We can play with any team in the league. When we lose Stone, that changes. Our biggest need is in net and then on D. We have to keep in mind those teams, especially since they're in our division. You can't win cups if you can't beat teams in our own division. 

 

Youre right about bout the other team's grit factor.

[MAC331]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

Why do you continue to make wild accusations without any explanation (except when you did provide an explanation, which you later admitted to be nothingless).

 

Nobody's forcing you to read this thread in late May.   I'm posting my thoughts on defence on a defence thread.   If you know so much better, then just state your opinion.  Tell us all that you think Rutta is the next big star of this team.  Just get it out.

 

Otherwise, allow other people to have thoughts.   And no, my post is not the same.  I've provided examples now of players that I would vouch for if the Flames signed.   And frankly....I just don't see that in the Czech league this year.

 

My question is why you would bother spending your time complaining about other people's opinions.  Like you an opinion custodian and need to maintain opinion order, and simply don't have time to have your own opinion.

I have plenty of my own opinions and you are right yours are nothing I should worry about. I think cross said it best, these finds provide competition for positions available and should they prove out you win from spying them and bringing them in.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I do think there are players to be had.   An example:  Yevgeni Lisovets   http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=70449

 

As far as I can tell he is performing at a vastly superior level to Rutta.  LIke, not even close.   He's just as big, and just as physical, and stands a much better chance at being plugged into an NHL lineup.   I realize there's a business end to it too...something I've never fully grasped, which probably has more to do with why Rutta is the "hot" topic right now.   It's not his play, that's for sure.

 

Yes, Rutta is a RHS.   There are those too.

 

Pavel Vorobey, for example.   RHS, Way bigger.   Performing right now, at a very similar level to what Rutta is currently.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=249111

 

Except...he's 19.  And could potentially be an NHL star one day.

 

 

I....don't get it.   

 

 

I guess the NHL teams do not agree.  For some reason, none of the players you are suggesting is drawing any interest.  Since I am not a scout, I would ask what any of these players bring to the table.  The older ones tend to have a solid history of pro play, regardless of the league.  The younger ones are less proven at the pro level, and would require years of development in the AHL before they could be ready.  Signing a Russian prospect is fine, if you can get them over here and pay them $70k for years before they ever make the NHL if ever.

 

I would compare the early career with Andersson or Kylington.  Neither is guaranteed to be in the NHL, but have been offensive forces.  Both are still young for the NHL.

 

Bottom line is that all of these guys are risks in one way or another.  Our development system is slow for transitioning them into NHL players.

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I guess the NHL teams do not agree.

 

I guess, my question is, are we sure about that?  Are the NHL teams really not interested?  Ie., did nobody see how good Panarin was until his latest KHL contract happened to expire?

 

I'm just pointing out that there are sometimes some extreme oddities in these selections and I can't help but wonder if there is far more to it, perhaps on a business end.

 

I purposely picked out players that, to my knowledge, are not locked in contracts.  I could obviously be wrong about that.    If you start looking at players in europe who are on contracts, there are some tremendous talents.   But it seems like some almost "announce" that they are available (literally on twitter by their agent), while other far more gifted players silently pass through a contract renewal as if nothing had happened.

 

I guess what I mean is, I am not intentionally calling the NHL teams stupid.   I am just pointing out anomalies, to which I don't understand but expect there to be an explanation for.   It does seem like some NHL teams are better at capitalizing on them than others.

[cross16]

Until you are 27 you need to sign an entry level contract, irregardless of your previous experience. So maximum base you are gojng to get is around 900k with the potential to earn a little more than 3 million if you hit bonuses. To hit the full 3 million you are talking be a top producer, like Panarin, winning awards etc. In essence, good luck as a international free agent making much more than 1-1.5 million on an ELC. Good chance a lot of them already make that or more playing at home. That also assumes they actuakky make the NHL. What is far more common is they will be on the AHL making 100k or so. That's why you typically see players wait until there is a bidding war because why are they going to come over to spend time in the AHl? Might as well stay home And make more money. 

Flames are always going to be at a bit of a disadvantage here too as are other smaller market clubs. You are trying to convince someone who has lived in Europe their whole life to move to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And oh I'm top of that your proabbky spend a lot of time in Stockton California. Hard sales pitch when you are competing against big markets and clubs who sometimes even have the farm team in the same place so the player just needs to buy 1 apartment. 

 

So its a real compelx process. On top of this the player has to want to play in Na, not always the case, have to not be under contract, not easy to find out sometimes, and then they have to pick the Flames out of 30 teams. It's tough. 

[Flyerfan52]

35 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Until you are 27 you need to sign an entry level contract, irregardless of your previous experience. So maximum base you are gojng to get is around 900k with the potential to earn a little more than 3 million if you hit bonuses. To hit the full 3 million you are talking be a top producer, like Panarin, winning awards etc. In essence, good luck as a international free agent making much more than 1-1.5 million on an ELC. Good chance a lot of them already make that or more playing at home. That also assumes they actuakky make the NHL. What is far more common is they will be on the AHL making 100k or so. That's why you typically see players wait until there is a bidding war because why are they going to come over to spend time in the AHl? Might as well stay home And make more money. 

Flames are always going to be at a bit of a disadvantage here too as are other smaller market clubs. You are trying to convince someone who has lived in Europe their whole life to move to Calgary, Alberta Canada. And oh I'm top of that your proabbky spend a lot of time in Stockton California. Hard sales pitch when you are competing against big markets and clubs who sometimes even have the farm team in the same place so the player just needs to buy 1 apartment. 

 

So its a real compelx process. On top of this the player has to want to play in Na, not always the case, have to not be under contract, not easy to find out sometimes, and then they have to pick the Flames out of 30 teams. It's tough. 

All true.

There is also the fact that most Euro kids dream of Olympic Gold while NA kids are about the SC. So playing closer to home, staying in your culture, being able to pull on your country's jersey trump playing NHL for all but the most competitive (though many of those made the trek to play junior in NA for the hockey & to aclimatise to the culture). But since there is no guarantee they make it the much lower $s of the AHL side of an ELC is a deterant.

There is still the odd gem to be found so if a vet Euro player still has the itch to prove he can play in the best league in the world I'm willing to give him that chance if it's low risk/low cost on the chance he is an NHLer. What is likely to cause an influx of those however is the report the KHL is going to contract by 6 teams.

I see undrafted college players as just as  likely to be that raw gem & there isn't the cultural baggage. Same with the undrafted late bloomers in juniors. The biggest bidding wars seem to be on the NAs meeting that description or the collegians that spurn their drafting team to go UFA (remember we feared Gaudreau would do that?).

[manu11]

I have a question for you guys:

If we can add a top4 this season (whether that is Stone or someone else), what role do you expect for our bottom pair next season? Will they get a lot of offensive starts or do they get a mix of zone starts against weaker competition?

[Flyerfan52]

12 minutes ago, manu11 said:

I have a question for you guys:

If we can add a top4 this season (whether that is Stone or someone else), what role do you expect for our bottom pair next season? Will they get a lot of offensive starts or do they get a mix of zone starts against weaker competition?

I'm hoping we add a 4th D better than Stone & then re-sign Stone as a 4/5 type for if/when needed.

Should we get a 4/5 he'll probably be partnered with Bart or a prospect (with Bart @ 28 I think what we see is what we get) for the low  minutes to rest the top 4. The 4/5 might get as high as 15 minutes but his partner maybe 10. Main use comes when the other team has their 4th line on the ice.

Most coaches plat the heck out of their top 4 (more so than the top 6 forwards) & I don't think GG is any different.

3rd pairing will remain a spot for an extra probably partnered with a trainee.

In games where 7 D are dressed that spot is usually used on a "Sideshow Bob" on a precautionary dressing if a higher D has just returned from illness/injury.

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I'm hoping we add a 4th D better than Stone & then re-sign Stone as a 4/5 type for if/when needed.

Should we get a 4/5 he'll probably be partnered with Bart or a prospect (with Bart @ 28 I think what we see is what we get) for the low  minutes to rest the top 4. The 4/5 might get as high as 15 minutes but his partner maybe 10. Main use comes when the other team has their 4th line on the ice.

Most coaches plat the heck out of their top 4 (more so than the top 6 forwards) & I don't think GG is any different.

3rd pairing will remain a spot for an extra probably partnered with a trainee.

In games where 7 D are dressed that spot is usually used on a "Sideshow Bob" on a precautionary dressing if a higher D has just returned from illness/injury.

 

I'm all for adding a 4th D.  A real one.  I don;t have a problem with Stone as a 5/6 guy, other than the possible cost to re-sign.  He may think he can get $4m, but I would not want to pay that for depth.  Bart is a 6/7 guy as far as O can tell.  I think that Andersson could be in the top 6, assuming we don't sign Stone.

 

With Engelland in the lineup, Gully still played him close to 17 minutes on a nightly basis, regardless of what line he played on.  I would prefer to get away from that and use the top four closer to 50 minutes.  

 

 

[manu11]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I'm hoping we add a 4th D better than Stone & then re-sign Stone as a 4/5 type for if/when needed.

Should we get a 4/5 he'll probably be partnered with Bart or a prospect (with Bart @ 28 I think what we see is what we get) for the low  minutes to rest the top 4. The 4/5 might get as high as 15 minutes but his partner maybe 10. Main use comes when the other team has their 4th line on the ice.

Most coaches plat the heck out of their top 4 (more so than the top 6 forwards) & I don't think GG is any different.

3rd pairing will remain a spot for an extra probably partnered with a trainee.

In games where 7 D are dressed that spot is usually used on a "Sideshow Bob" on a precautionary dressing if a higher D has just returned from illness/injury.

 

I didn't really want to turn that into a discussion about the Nr.4, even though I get the feeling if the likes of Stone or B.Smith isn't good enough for a 4th D you are more looking for a Nr.3 guy IMO.

I just wanted to find out what kind of player would be best to sign for the bottom three.  If they only play the 4th line regardless of zone start, we probably still could use a guy like Engelland, but if our top4 takes the majority of the starts in the D-zone and our bottom pair gets mostly starts in the O-zone then we should look for more of a puck moving D-man, for example someone like Postma. 

[MAC331]

16 minutes ago, manu11 said:

 

I didn't really want to turn that into a discussion about the Nr.4, even though I get the feeling if the likes of Stone or B.Smith isn't good enough for a 4th D you are more looking for a Nr.3 guy IMO.

I just wanted to find out what kind of player would be best to sign for the bottom three.  If they only play the 4th line regardless of zone start, we probably still could use a guy like Engelland, but if our top4 takes the majority of the starts in the D-zone and our bottom pair gets mostly starts in the O-zone then we should look for more of a puck moving D-man, for example someone like Postma. 

I would trade for Pulock from NYI .

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, manu11 said:

 

I didn't really want to turn that into a discussion about the Nr.4, even though I get the feeling if the likes of Stone or B.Smith isn't good enough for a 4th D you are more looking for a Nr.3 guy IMO.

I just wanted to find out what kind of player would be best to sign for the bottom three.  If they only play the 4th line regardless of zone start, we probably still could use a guy like Engelland, but if our top4 takes the majority of the starts in the D-zone and our bottom pair gets mostly starts in the O-zone then we should look for more of a puck moving D-man, for example someone like Postma. 

Postma is UFA so costs only a contract. But believe me you won't want him.

If going for a Jets D as a 4/5 I'd put in an offer to them (or LV) for Chiarot's RFA rights. He just keeps getting better, A late bloomer.

 

As UFA I'd go for Del Zotto last of the Flyers.

 

Trades for a #3/4  I've mentioned in a few threads.

**************************************************************************

The likelihood of the 3rd pairing getting the starts in the o-zone are slim unless we have a huge lead. That is where you try to make hay with your best players on the ice.

So to answer that ? your bottom pairing needs to be more defensive than offensive in the few minutes of ice they see.

[manu11]

4 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Postma is UFA so costs only a contract. But believe me you won't want him.

If going for a Jets D as a 4/5 I'd put in an offer to them (or LV) for Chiarot's RFA rights. He just keeps getting better, A late bloomer.

 

As UFA I'd go for Del Zotto last of the Flyers.

 

Trades for a #3/4  I've mentioned in a few threads.

**************************************************************************

The likelihood of the 3rd pairing getting the starts in the o-zone are slim unless we have a huge lead. That is where you try to make hay with your best players on the ice.

So to answer that ? your bottom pairing needs to be more defensive than offensive in the few minutes of ice they see.

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Obviously, I suggested Postma for that o-zone oriented scenario. I like Del Zotto, but I don't think he would sign under $3m. I'd look for cheaper options like Quincey or maybe Polak. We shouldn't put too much money in our D, especially in the bottom three.