Flames Defense

[phoenix66]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

From a purely defensive perspective, imho the odd man out is Hanifin.  From an offensive perspective not so much lol.

 

I would personally entertain a Hanifin trade because IMHO he actually is a liability.   Now you're losing offense here so it would require some creativity but moving him along would probably enhance the club if done right, and definitely solve the waiver issue   

Agreed .. depending on your target I think he is by far  our biggest trade chip.. good young defenseman..sweetheart of a deal for a few more years .. top 4 on most teams ..

If we do have end up keeping him he shouid go back to second line with Tanev 

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

From a purely defensive perspective, imho the odd man out is Hanifin.  From an offensive perspective not so much lol.

 

I would personally entertain a Hanifin trade because IMHO he actually is a liability.   Now you're losing offense here so it would require some creativity but moving him along would probably enhance the club if done right, and definitely solve the waiver issue   

 

It's a tough call.  Hanifin is worth the most in trade.  And there are parts of his game that absolutely cause me to cringe.  He's not the riverboat gambler that Kylington is but you see him doing things that make you ask WTF.  Not once in a blue moon things.  Consistent things.  Paired with Ras, you see Ras making a decent read and covering his man, but then the other player comes out of nowhere and you wonder where Hanifin?  

 

We trade Hanifin we might regret it.  We trade Kylington I am sure we will regret it.  At least Hanifin brings back a certain return.  Kylington's body of work is more a trade where the other GM thinks he's buying low.  And the return will match that.

 

It's entirely likely we have 8D on the roster, but I think that is not very likely.  The farm team is in Calgary.  Worse case scenario is the player called up for a long road trip.  Don't need them for home games.  If I had my guess, we are trading Valimaki to start.  Set the bar.  Then we are trading either Kyl or Hanifin.  For a C.  

[jjgallow]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:07 AM, travel_dude said:

 

It's a tough call.  Hanifin is worth the most in trade.  And there are parts of his game that absolutely cause me to cringe.  He's not the riverboat gambler that Kylington is but you see him doing things that make you ask WTF.  Not once in a blue moon things.  Consistent things.  Paired with Ras, you see Ras making a decent read and covering his man, but then the other player comes out of nowhere and you wonder where Hanifin?  

 

We trade Hanifin we might regret it.  We trade Kylington I am sure we will regret it.  At least Hanifin brings back a certain return.  Kylington's body of work is more a trade where the other GM thinks he's buying low.  And the return will match that.

 

It's entirely likely we have 8D on the roster, but I think that is not very likely.  The farm team is in Calgary.  Worse case scenario is the player called up for a long road trip.  Don't need them for home games.  If I had my guess, we are trading Valimaki to start.  Set the bar.  Then we are trading either Kyl or Hanifin.  For a C.  

 

Hanifin for picks.  And if we MUST be silly and "go for it"  use those picks to get an actual defenceman.   

 

 

[conundrumed]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:31 AM, jjgallow said:

 

Hanifin for picks.  And if we MUST be silly and "go for it"  use those picks to get an actual defenceman.   

 

 

Ummm, clearly, you haven't seen Weegar play enough.

Weegar, Tanev, Andersson, Hanifin is a wicked top 4, still have Z, Kyl, Meloche, Vali, Mackey...

So your "actual" dman comment makes no sense. A lot of other team's have at least a couple of our bottom 5 playing top 4.

Our D is stacked, not sure what you're looking at.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Ummm, clearly, you haven't seen Weegar play enough.

Weegar, Tanev, Andersson, Hanifin is a wicked top 4, still have Z, Kyl, Meloche, Vali, Mackey...

So your "actual" dman comment makes no sense. A lot of other team's have at least a couple of our bottom 5 playing top 4.

Our D is stacked, not sure what you're looking at.

 

Wasn't meant as a slight to Weegar, I meant actual defenceman as opposed to Hanifin.

 

Don't have to look much further than our playoff run.

[flames for life]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Wasn't meant as a slight to Weegar, I meant actual defenceman as opposed to Hanifin.

 

Don't have to look much further than our playoff run.

My question is, given this seems to be a bell you ring a lot, who or what would you consider to be an “actual”defenseman?  Do none of our defenders rate in that category?   

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, flames for life said:

My question is, given this seems to be a bell you ring a lot, who or what would you consider to be an “actual”defenseman?  Do none of our defenders rate in that category?   

 

It was Edmonton doing the bell ringing.    

[phoenix66]

16 hours ago, flames for life said:

My question is, given this seems to be a bell you ring a lot, who or what would you consider to be an “actual”defenseman?  Do none of our defenders rate in that category?   

I'll be honest I don't get the hate on Hanifin.. not just you, but  in general. He wouid be legitimate top 4 on nearly every team .. 

[flames for life]

15 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It was Edmonton doing the bell ringing.    

I appreciate the jest, but you didn’t answer the question; who do you consider to be an “actual “ defenseman, and do any of our defence measure up?

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, flames for life said:

I appreciate the jest, but you didn’t answer the question; who do you consider to be an “actual “ defenseman, and do any of our defence measure up?

 

It would be nice if it was a jest, but instead was just more of a literal fact.   Was not enjoyable.

 

Many consider out division weak, and, not incorrectly.  However it is also a division with the highest scoring generational player in a long time.   So, defense.  is important.  importanter.

 

 

Most of our defensemen I am actually just fine with.   the "actual defenseman" comment was not in reference to them.

 

Where we run into problems is on the elite end, the defensemen eating the most minutes.

 

And the most glaring is Hanifin.    He only sees the ice offensively, he can't antipate, position himself for, offensive moves from creative elite players like McDavid, he isn't able to reduce risks.

 

I'd be fine if we had the cap to just have Hanifin as a powerplay specialist.   But when he's eating loads of minutes and can't take away angles or reduce scoring opportunities, it's harmful.   Truthfully what I'm looking for is hard to find.    That doesn't make it less of a priority.

 

 

[7wit]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It would be nice if it was a jest, but instead was just more of a literal fact.   Was not enjoyable.

 

Many consider out division weak, and, not incorrectly.  However it is also a division with the highest scoring generational player in a long time.   So, defense.  is important.  importanter.

 

 

Most of our defensemen I am actually just fine with.   the "actual defenseman" comment was not in reference to them.

 

Where we run into problems is on the elite end, the defensemen eating the most minutes.

 

And the most glaring is Hanifin.    He only sees the ice offensively, he can't antipate, position himself for, offensive moves from creative elite players like McDavid, he isn't able to reduce risks.

 

I'd be fine if we had the cap to just have Hanifin as a powerplay specialist.   But when he's eating loads of minutes and can't take away angles or reduce scoring opportunities, it's harmful.   Truthfully what I'm looking for is hard to find.    That doesn't make it less of a priority.

 

 

Is Chychrun an “actual defenseman” and is he > Hanifin?

[flames for life]

9 hours ago, 7wit said:

Is Chychrun an “actual defenseman” and is he > Hanifin?

Until I see more of Chychrun play, what I have seen of him, has not impressed me much.  The last game Flames played against Arizona, he was mostly invisible.  At this stage, imo, Chychrun = Hanifin; therefore a straight trade.

[cross16]

I am a big fan of Chychrun but at this point I don't see the point of pursuing him. The cost is huge and the Flames IMO no longer need a dman of that calibre. They got one in Mackenzie Weegar who IMO I would rank higher than Chychrun or at the very least at the same level 

[Sarasti]

I dont get the love for Chychrun to be quite honest. He is a solid dman, no doubt, but not a world-beater and honestly not really better than who we already have.

Certainly not at the ungodly acquisition cost people have been throwing around here.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Sarasti said:

I dont get the love for Chychrun to be quite honest. He is a solid dman, no doubt, but not a world-beater and honestly not really better than who we already have.

Certainly not at the ungodly acquisition cost people have been throwing around here.

 

He led all D in goals two seasons ago.  But last season was a down year but ARZ still demanding 4 first round pick or equivalent.  If Chychrun holds out, then maybe he forces ARZ's asking price to come down but ARZ is trying to tank for Bedard so maybe they don't care if Chychrun holds out all year.

[jjgallow]

14 hours ago, 7wit said:

Is Chychrun an “actual defenseman” and is he > Hanifin?

 

Very very hard to say.    I would lean on the side of no, he isn't consistent enough.    Last year was an off-year for him.

 

if you'd asked me two years ago I'd say absolutely.    

 

He's had some concussions, and lower body injuries.   IMHO very very very likely this is involved.

[conundrumed]

21 hours ago, Sarasti said:

I dont get the love for Chychrun to be quite honest. He is a solid dman, no doubt, but not a world-beater and honestly not really better than who we already have.

Certainly not at the ungodly acquisition cost people have been throwing around here.

In fairness, he's likely better than most, just a toss up with Weegar. I feel bad for him and Keller. Pretty exciting to realize your dream, pretty deflating to be on a perpetually tanking team that is virtually without hope, now playing to a smaller rink than your amateur rinks. They could literally do better as the Saskatchewan Coyotes fan-wise.

The ask on Chychrun is too high though. The Weegar add really negates the need. His career is going to waste. I love to see that he's recognizing it. Sign of a competitor. They shouldn't be in the league and I feel sorry for the players there. But hey, it got them a gaming license...

If I was any Cali team, St. Loo, NYR, I'd be sniffing around pretty hard for Chychrun.

He's skilled and versatile and a great character guy stuck in a horrible market and ownership.

In closing, lol, too many are waaaay to hard on Hanifin, Dube and Kylington. Be careful trading them. There is a lot of risk in that. It's too early imho. If you only focus on mistakes, no one will ever be good enough. They can grow out of those. They're all young enough. The 2D especially. D tend to age really well.

I'll be the first to say Hanifin probably isn't proud of his playoff performance. It was one year, oh well.

He's a good dman.

I'm quite honestly jacked about Huberdeau. @cross16 is correct that he puts the puck everywhere rather than carry it up ice. Once it gets towards the O-zone, she's a whole new game. He turns dmen inside out with his passing. He doesn't really need an epic RWer he's never really had one.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

In fairness, he's likely better than most, just a toss up with Weegar. I feel bad for him and Keller. Pretty exciting to realize your dream, pretty deflating to be on a perpetually tanking team that is virtually without hope, now playing to a smaller rink than your amateur rinks. They could literally do better as the Saskatchewan Coyotes fan-wise.

The ask on Chychrun is too high though. The Weegar add really negates the need. His career is going to waste. I love to see that he's recognizing it. Sign of a competitor. They shouldn't be in the league and I feel sorry for the players there. But hey, it got them a gaming license...

If I was any Cali team, St. Loo, NYR, I'd be sniffing around pretty hard for Chychrun.

He's skilled and versatile and a great character guy stuck in a horrible market and ownership.

In closing, lol, too many are waaaay to hard on Hanifin, Dube and Kylington. Be careful trading them. There is a lot of risk in that. It's too early imho. If you only focus on mistakes, no one will ever be good enough. They can grow out of those. They're all young enough. The 2D especially. D tend to age really well.

I'll be the first to say Hanifin probably isn't proud of his playoff performance. It was one year, oh well.

He's a good dman.

I'm quite honestly jacked about Huberdeau. @cross16 is correct that he puts the puck everywhere rather than carry it up ice. Once it gets towards the O-zone, she's a whole new game. He turns dmen inside out with his passing. He doesn't really need an epic RWer he's never really had one.

 

There may be some that are hard on Hanifin, but really it's more of a question of who you can afford in 2 years. Having Weegar kinda lessens the need to have Hanifin in the top 2.  So, it comes down to Kylington and Zadorov, both have unique skill sets on this team.

 

Dube is better on RW, and it's a matter of fit in the lineup.  If he gets played on Backlund's line, can he be what Mange was last year?  I don't know that he would be a great fit with Mange and Kadri or Kadri and Toffoli.  Don't know is the operative thing.  He's bopped around the lines a lot, so I'm not sure what he is.  Had one good stretch just before the playoffs, then tailed off to nothing.   

 

If Hanifin gets us a top 6 winger or Dube gets us a defensive specialist or RW'er, then it's a question of whether we are better off.  

[7wit]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There may be some that are hard on Hanifin, but really it's more of a question of who you can afford in 2 years. Having Weegar kinda lessens the need to have Hanifin in the top 2.  So, it comes down to Kylington and Zadorov, both have unique skill sets on this team.

 

Dube is better on RW, and it's a matter of fit in the lineup.  If he gets played on Backlund's line, can he be what Mange was last year?  I don't know that he would be a great fit with Mange and Kadri or Kadri and Toffoli.  Don't know is the operative thing.  He's bopped around the lines a lot, so I'm not sure what he is.  Had one good stretch just before the playoffs, then tailed off to nothing.   

 

If Hanifin gets us a top 6 winger or Dube gets us a defensive specialist or RW'er, then it's a question of whether we are better off.  

I agree with this. I think if you move Hanifin then Kylington will be given every opportunity to fill in as he did last year to start the season. I’m actually glad we never gave him up in the Mark Stone offer a couple of years ago. They wanted Valimaki instead and BT said no. That might have solved some of our issues now though if we gave up Valimaki. In Hanifin’s case he may be too expensive in a couple of years and if we can sign Weegar long term there isn’t room for Hanifin so I see why Chychrun garners interest. You may get 2 more years for the same money. At what cost though?

 

Dube is a wildcard and if he’s a little slower in development but then turns out like Backlund (solid reliable 2/3 liner) it could be beneficial down the road. Sometimes patience is the key and I believe each year he gets a little bit better. If he gets you an established reliable prolific player now though he may be worth trading. Speaking of disappearing in the playoffs our entire RW side kinda went quiet. That’s why we need a quality RW with playoff experience or at least someone who shows they are willing to put in the effort and be here. It shows on the ice when one foot is always out the door. If Dube gets you a good quality D man you need to explore that as well but you can’t give him away as he’s still young. Would we be better off?

 

 

[conundrumed]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There may be some that are hard on Hanifin, but really it's more of a question of who you can afford in 2 years. Having Weegar kinda lessens the need to have Hanifin in the top 2.  So, it comes down to Kylington and Zadorov, both have unique skill sets on this team.

 

Dube is better on RW, and it's a matter of fit in the lineup.  If he gets played on Backlund's line, can he be what Mange was last year?  I don't know that he would be a great fit with Mange and Kadri or Kadri and Toffoli.  Don't know is the operative thing.  He's bopped around the lines a lot, so I'm not sure what he is.  Had one good stretch just before the playoffs, then tailed off to nothing.   

 

If Hanifin gets us a top 6 winger or Dube gets us a defensive specialist or RW'er, then it's a question of whether we are better off.  

First things first is getting Weegar signed. Hard to trade Hanifin only to find out Weegar wants to test UFA.

Losing both would suck. But until Weegar is extended, I don't think we can have Hanifin on the block. Our D takes a hit removing Hanifin so it can't be a move that we regret.

Unless of course Valimaki has a miraculous recovery or Kylington has really focused on his weaknesses and continues to elevate himself.

So which RWer would be available for Hanifin? I'd have liked Zadina (not straight across) but he just signed 3 x $1.825. I do understand the want for a top 6 RW, but what names? A lot of, "Hanifin for a 1RW", but I'm not hearing any names.

7th dman is going to be a battle. Valimaki, Mackey and Meloche will be a battle. Looking beyond that, Poirier, Kuznetsov and Solovyov continuing to develop would be great timing in 2 years when so many contracts expire.

[The_People1]

On 8/27/2022 at 7:15 AM, conundrumed said:

First things first is getting Weegar signed. Hard to trade Hanifin only to find out Weegar wants to test UFA.

Losing both would suck. But until Weegar is extended, I don't think we can have Hanifin on the block. Our D takes a hit removing Hanifin so it can't be a move that we regret.

Unless of course Valimaki has a miraculous recovery or Kylington has really focused on his weaknesses and continues to elevate himself.

So which RWer would be available for Hanifin? I'd have liked Zadina (not straight across) but he just signed 3 x $1.825. I do understand the want for a top 6 RW, but what names? A lot of, "Hanifin for a 1RW", but I'm not hearing any names.

7th dman is going to be a battle. Valimaki, Mackey and Meloche will be a battle. Looking beyond that, Poirier, Kuznetsov and Solovyov continuing to develop would be great timing in 2 years when so many contracts expire.

 

Let's just do Kylington for Puljujarvi.

[travel_dude]

19 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Let's just do Kylington for Puljujarvi.

 

I would "consider" Valimaki for Puljujarvi, but that's close to an overpay.

He isn't even getting the offers of a 2nd now.

I would actually be okay in sending a 2nd and a lesser prospect for Pooly.

[jjgallow]

56 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would "consider" Valimaki for Puljujarvi, but that's close to an overpay.

He isn't even getting the offers of a 2nd now.

I would actually be okay in sending a 2nd and a lesser prospect for Pooly.

 

What's up with Valimaki, did he get injured?   I mean obviously the top priority should be getting his career back on track.  but if that isn't likely, and probably only a few people know, then yes gotta trade.

[bosn111]

Valimaki had an injury a couple of years ago where he basically missed a full season of development during prime development time. This may have had a more significant effect then most thought, but I think there is more than that.

 

I have seen a few reports and rumours that the issue is more between the ears with respect to ego rather than injury. He is definitely not the only player with this issue, but it seems to be having an impact on Valimaki.

 

The biggest evidence for this is Sutter. We know that Sutter will only play a young guy ahead of vets if he is lights out talented and/or works so hard every day both on and off the ice that he can’t be ignored.

 

Since Valimaki has not shown the super high end skill (Makar or Hughes types), and Sutter refuses to play him, then the issue appears to be effort based. I believe that Valimaki needed the Kylington plan. Spend 2 years+ in the minors to learn how to be a pro and mature as an individual before getting the luxuries that come with an NHL roster spot. Once the maturity and hard work kicked in for Kylington, he stepped up and earned his roster spot. Valimaki was essentially gifted his spot initially. Now that he is being forced to mature and earn the spot back he isn’t happy. (Somewhat similar to the Puljujarvi situation of the past few years).

 

If he doesn’t respond to the challenge of the tough love and expects a roster spot because he was drafted in the first round, then by all means trade him. If he learned from the Kylington example and will be coming into camp stronger and having put in the work, then he may have a shot.

 

Maybe getting traded due to his attitude would be the shock he needs. Maybe another team would just give him a spot and he is good enough to have a decent career. But if he wants to be anything better than a bottom pair D who can fill in higher, he will need to put in the work. The NHL is no longer a league where skill alone will guarantee success. Players need to actually work off ice as well. No more cigarettes and steak before each game.

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

What's up with Valimaki, did he get injured?   I mean obviously the top priority should be getting his career back on track.  but if that isn't likely, and probably only a few people know, then yes gotta trade.

 

Okay, so I have time for Valimaki to get back up to speed, but he can't really do that in the NHL.  Not any real spots for him, even if he's #7.  Waiving him has decent risk, even if you consider that most players make it through the season start waiver wire.  There are teams that will wait, so as not to have to make a trade.  

 

So, the only way to get Valimaki the NHL reps is to trade Hanifin.  Opens up the 7 spot.  I have no doubt that he could get back on track if he shows up ready in camp and forces BT to keep him up.