Flames Defense

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

Right now, the system we are using isn’t working for him. 

Is he a Schultz situation where he’s been used poorly and you go to a team that plays uptempo hockey and he is used more efficiently? 

 

I have a feeling that this more the case and another team will benefit from his skills. But if we keep him and have the same system it doesn’t work for both sides.

 

Funny enough, Pittsburgh plays virtually the same system as Calgary.

 

I think too many excuses are being made for Brodie personally. I will qualify my mini rant by saying i'm still a huge Brodie fan, he's been one of my favorite Flames since they drafted him, and I think he has the talent to be a very good dman but even I had to open my eyes to see he is really struggling and it's not because he is in the wrong system. The wrong system doesn't tell him to send blind passes up the middle or make a lazy drop back when exiting his zone etc. I have no doubt that Brodie is capable of succeeding within the system Gultuzan has. 

 

However, the Schultz example has parallels. The Oilers asked too much of Schultz too soon and he struggled but they were stubborn in that they figured they knew what they had and he would eventually just develop, but his confidence was shot. All Pittsburgh did with Schtulz was understand his strengths and weaknesses, play him in a sheltered role that maximized his strengths and let him rebuild his confidence. Now he's a solid offensive top 4 dman  but they made him work back up to that, which is also helped by the fact he plays with a ton of talent so the points will come. 

 

My opinion is that Brodie's game has declined because of bad habits, bad habits that developed because the Flames have asked too much. I think the Flames are in the same boat Edmonton was with Schtulz, they are stick in this belief bias that Brodie is the same dman he as in 14-15 and he'll just eventually come around and i'm sure Brodie is the same way. Problem with situations like this and a player's confidence is once it goes, it can snowball very quickly and I think that's what happened.  I think in order to fix it, you probably need a new coach and a new approach to Brodie, and someone who is willing to challenge the bias that has developed around Brodie. Maybe for a time you start him exclusively in the O-zone and against weaker competition. After a tough game or a bad turnover, you may have to sit him for a bit, or maybe you deploy him on the 3rd pairing for the rest of the game. Whatever it takes, but just remove this idea that this current version of Brodie is the same Brodie as 14-15 but it isn't. Now, the obvious flaw in this plan is the depth of the Flames isn't great on D. This mean more minutes for guys like Kulak and Stone or Gio/Hamilton so the execution of said plan is easier said then done. That was another advantage Pens had with Schultz is they had the depth to pull this off. 

 

Might be best to move on, and i'm of the belief that the Flames likely are quietly shopping Brodie around the league to try and get better at forward. I don't agree with the idea that Brodie doesn't have value and in fact he has quite a bit. Hamonic was struggling as much, if not more, on the Island than Brodie is here and he still garnered a huge trade interest. Brodie may be the piece that helps the Flames upgrade at forward, but if they keep him you probably have to go back to the drawing board in terms of his game. 

[ABC923]

Just something to note, Brodie was adamant that he preferred the right side of the ice.  Now, it shouldn't matter, but there's no question he's been less effective since making the switch.  Maybe it's all in his head, but if you move him back to the right side, maybe he bounces back.

[MAC331]

1 minute ago, ABC923 said:

Just something to note, Brodie was adamant that he preferred the right side of the ice.  Now, it shouldn't matter, but there's no question he's been less effective since making the switch.  Maybe it's all in his head, but if you move him back to the right side, maybe he bounces back.

To late for that IMO and I don't know about the RS being any better because I always hated seeing him on his backhand with passes being picked off. If he can't adjust maybe it is him that has to go.

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Funny enough, Pittsburgh plays virtually the same system as Calgary.

 

I think too many excuses are being made for Brodie personally. I will qualify my mini rant by saying i'm still a huge Brodie fan, he's been one of my favorite Flames since they drafted him, and I think he has the talent to be a very good dman but even I had to open my eyes to see he is really struggling and it's not because he is in the wrong system. The wrong system doesn't tell him to send blind passes up the middle or make a lazy drop back when exiting his zone etc. I have no doubt that Brodie is capable of succeeding within the system Gultuzan has. 

 

However, the Schultz example has parallels. The Oilers asked too much of Schultz too soon and he struggled but they were stubborn in that they figured they knew what they had and he would eventually just develop, but his confidence was shot. All Pittsburgh did with Schtulz was understand his strengths and weaknesses, play him in a sheltered role that maximized his strengths and let him rebuild his confidence. Now he's a solid offensive top 4 dman  but they made him work back up to that, which is also helped by the fact he plays with a ton of talent so the points will come. 

 

My opinion is that Brodie's game has declined because of bad habits, bad habits that developed because the Flames have asked too much. I think the Flames are in the same boat Edmonton was with Schtulz, they are stick in this belief bias that Brodie is the same dman he as in 14-15 and he'll just eventually come around and i'm sure Brodie is the same way. Problem with situations like this and a player's confidence is once it goes, it can snowball very quickly and I think that's what happened.  I think in order to fix it, you probably need a new coach and a new approach to Brodie, and someone who is willing to challenge the bias that has developed around Brodie. Maybe for a time you start him exclusively in the O-zone and against weaker competition. After a tough game or a bad turnover, you may have to sit him for a bit, or maybe you deploy him on the 3rd pairing for the rest of the game. Whatever it takes, but just remove this idea that this current version of Brodie is the same Brodie as 14-15 but it isn't. Now, the obvious flaw in this plan is the depth of the Flames isn't great on D. This mean more minutes for guys like Kulak and Stone or Gio/Hamilton so the execution of said plan is easier said then done. That was another advantage Pens had with Schultz is they had the depth to pull this off. 

 

Might be best to move on, and i'm of the belief that the Flames likely are quietly shopping Brodie around the league to try and get better at forward. I don't agree with the idea that Brodie doesn't have value and in fact he has quite a bit. Hamonic was struggling as much, if not more, on the Island than Brodie is here and he still garnered a huge trade interest. Brodie may be the piece that helps the Flames upgrade at forward, but if they keep him you probably have to go back to the drawing board in terms of his game. 

 

I don’t know if we see the system to a “T” here. Maybe we just look dummer because what we are doing is way different (results). They play fast and uptempo. We are slow and methodical. 

 

Maybe it’s the players? Some here have said, they can put a system in but the players will decide on the ice to pass or shoot at the right or wrong times.

[cross16]

16 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Just something to note, Brodie was adamant that he preferred the right side of the ice.  Now, it shouldn't matter, but there's no question he's been less effective since making the switch.  Maybe it's all in his head, but if you move him back to the right side, maybe he bounces back.

 

Has he ever said this? Can anyone produce a quote?

 

I only ask because I hear this a lot but i've actually never head him say it, or read that he did say it. 

 

15 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I don’t know if we see the system to a “T” here. Maybe we just look dummer because what we are doing is way different (results). They play fast and uptempo. We are slow and methodical. 

 

Maybe it’s the players? Some here have said, they can put a system in but the players will decide on the ice to pass or shoot at the right or wrong times.

 

In whatever system you have, if you have the talent the Pens yes you will look much better at executing it. I think your bang on that the results is what is swaying the opinion. 

[MAC331]

25 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Has he ever said this? Can anyone produce a quote?

 

I only ask because I hear this a lot but i've actually never head him say it, or read that he did say it. 

 

 

In whatever system you have, if you have the talent the Pens yes you will look much better at executing it. I think your bang on that the results is what is swaying the opinion. 

I think you have weigh in experience and maturity within your roster when it comes to executing any system(s). Everyone has to be committed.

[redfire11]

21 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Funny enough, Pittsburgh plays virtually the same system as Calgary.

 

I think too many excuses are being made for Brodie personally. I will qualify my mini rant by saying i'm still a huge Brodie fan, he's been one of my favorite Flames since they drafted him, and I think he has the talent to be a very good dman but even I had to open my eyes to see he is really struggling and it's not because he is in the wrong system. The wrong system doesn't tell him to send blind passes up the middle or make a lazy drop back when exiting his zone etc. I have no doubt that Brodie is capable of succeeding within the system Gultuzan has. 

 

My opinion is that Brodie's game has declined because of bad habits, bad habits that developed because the Flames have asked too much. I think the Flames are in the same boat Edmonton was with Schtulz, they are stick in this belief bias that Brodie is the same dman he as in 14-15 and he'll just eventually come around and i'm sure Brodie is the same way. Problem with situations like this and a player's confidence is once it goes, it can snowball very quickly and I think that's what happened.  I think in order to fix it, you probably need a new coach and a new approach to Brodie, and someone who is willing to challenge the bias that has developed around Brodie. Maybe for a time you start him exclusively in the O-zone and against weaker competition. After a tough game or a bad turnover, you may have to sit him for a bit, or maybe you deploy him on the 3rd pairing for the rest of the game. Whatever it takes, but just remove this idea that this current version of Brodie is the same Brodie as 14-15 but it isn't. Now, the obvious flaw in this plan is the depth of the Flames isn't great on D. This mean more minutes for guys like Kulak and Stone or Gio/Hamilton so the execution of said plan is easier said then done. That was another advantage Pens had with Schultz is they had the depth to pull this off. 

 

 

I agree as I am a huge fan of Brodie.  His skating is so smooth reminds me of Josi or Karllson. Yes his head is just not in the right place this year. This could be coaching, usage(r or l side), personal life. Who knows but the potential is there for a norris candidate. We could trade him but we would have to be overpaid and if next year he steps up his game he would be so valuable to our needs.

[MAC331]

40 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I agree as I am a huge fan of Brodie.  His skating is so smooth reminds me of Josi or Karllson. Yes his head is just not in the right place this year. This could be coaching, usage(r or l side), personal life. Who knows but the potential is there for a norris candidate. We could trade him but we would have to be overpaid and if next year he steps up his game he would be so valuable to our needs.

I said earlier you could flip a coin with Brodie to keep him or trade him. I think you have 2 seasons remaining to trade him and Giordano so when do you start ?

[DirtyDeeds]

12 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Has he ever said this? Can anyone produce a quote?

 

I only ask because I hear this a lot but i've actually never head him say it, or read that he did say it. 

 

 

In whatever system you have, if you have the talent the Pens yes you will look much better at executing it. I think your bang on that the results is what is swaying the opinion. 

Derek Wills

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-thoughts-no-opportunism-hurts-calgary/

 

 

 

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matchsticks and gasoline:

https://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2017/5/3/15446364/2016-17-report-card-t-j-brodie-calgary-flames

 

 

 

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Bob Hartley in interview with 

Flames from 80 feet above:

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2015/09/six-reasons-to-be-skeptical-that-brodie.html

[cross16]

That is what I thought. Lots of quotes/thoughts but very little actually coming from Brodie. 

[CheersMan]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

That is what I thought. Lots of quotes/thoughts but very little actually coming from Brodie. 

How would Brodie look, or any player for that mater, if he spouted off in the media that he did not like the way he was being handled by his coach and GM?  That would be a sure ticket out of town for any player.  Him keeping his mouth shut in the media shows a true sign of professionalism.  

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

How would Brodie look, or any player for that mater, if he spouted off in the media that he did not like the way he was being handled by his coach and GM?  That would be a sure ticket out of town for any player.  Him keeping his mouth shut in the media shows a true sign of professionalism.  

The other parts in that article or review DD pulled up was the comment about the lack of scoring over the past two seasons and now this one. Brodie has become so indecisive was the puck, when he should shoot he passes and shoots when he should pass or skates around while others wait. He has always IMO been a reckless defender in our zone and can't handle any opposition with size over him.. I simply think if he can be traded to help with adding some additional scoring up front preferably on RW it should happen.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, CheersMan said:

How would Brodie look, or any player for that mater, if he spouted off in the media that he did not like the way he was being handled by his coach and GM?  That would be a sure ticket out of town for any player.  Him keeping his mouth shut in the media shows a true sign of professionalism.  

 

The other angle to that, is how would the organization look if a player has been telling you for years he wants to play a certain position, is "adament" he should play there and instead you spend significant assets in order to keep him in a position he does not want to play?

 

I'm not suggesting this is a Brodie issue. What i'm getting at is that I think the left-right issue with Brodie has became a bigger story, as is custom in today's age, due to the media and it rests on little actual facts. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

The other angle to that, is how would the organization look if a player has been telling you for years he wants to play a certain position, is "adament" he should play there and instead you spend significant assets in order to keep him in a position he does not want to play?

 

I'm not suggesting this is a Brodie issue. What i'm getting at is that I think the left-right issue with Brodie has became a bigger story, as is custom in today's age, due to the media and it rests on little actual facts. 

 

 

It seems to me, Calgary media seem to be quite respectful in that when something is seemingly off the record, it’s quite possible they won’t directly quote him. But then, I am not privy to any private conversations so I couldn’t say exactly. Three different news guys have said it, and they’re in contact with these players everyday. 

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

It seems to me, Calgary media seem to be quite respectful in that when something is seemingly off the record, it’s quite possible they won’t directly quote him. But then, I am not privy to any private conversations so I couldn’t say exactly. Three different news guys have said it, and they’re in contact with these players everyday. 

 

so i should maybe clarify what i've been saying.

I'm not blaming Brodie here at all. I do believe that he is probably more comfortable on the right side but what I think is more likley is that while he may be more comfortable there he wasn't adamant about it and was open to playing both. I think too much has been made of this and that's likely due to media hype taking a simple and small statement and blowing it out of proportion. Plus it's always an easy and simple answer to a problem we likely cannot understand. 

 

So yes I do agree that Brodie said he is more comfortable on the right side. However, I think if the Flames were to move him to the right side next year there would be no change to his game. I think his struggles are not due to what side of the ice he is playing on and I also don't believe the Flames would go tot he lengths they did to improve their Right side D if Brodie wasn't Ok playing the left side. 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

so i should maybe clarify what i've been saying.

I'm not blaming Brodie here at all. I do believe that he is probably more comfortable on the right side but what I think is more likley is that while he may be more comfortable there he wasn't adamant about it and was open to playing both. I think too much has been made of this and that's likely due to media hype taking a simple and small statement and blowing it out of proportion. Plus it's always an easy and simple answer to a problem we likely cannot understand. 

 

So yes I do agree that Brodie said he is more comfortable on the right side. However, I think if the Flames were to move him to the right side next year there would be no change to his game. I think his struggles are not due to what side of the ice he is playing on and I also don't believe the Flames would go tot he lengths they did to improve their Right side D if Brodie wasn't Ok playing the left side. 

 

The thing that is baffling is, GG is supposedly an analytics guy but he refused to alter what wasn’t working until it was too late.

 

Brodie is one example which is small. Things like the PP player usage hurt the team even more.

 

it is the add up of all of those.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

The thing that is baffling is, GG is supposedly an analytics guy but he refused to alter what wasn’t working until it was too late.

 

Brodie is one example which is small. Things like the PP player usage hurt the team even more.

 

it is the add up of all of those.

 

Well let's be fair though. It was Hartley that wanted Gio-Hamilton together too and It was Treliving who went out and got Hamonic and Stone to keep Brodie on the left side.

 

Not trying to defend Gulutzan at all costs here, but I do think this decision was over his head. LS-RS is a league trend and to Gio-Hamilton are a better pair than Gio-Brodie ever where. I think it's an easy decision to pick apart but for me, it makes a ton of sense. 

[robrob74]

32 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Well let's be fair though. It was Hartley that wanted Gio-Hamilton together too and It was Treliving who went out and got Hamonic and Stone to keep Brodie on the left side.

 

Not trying to defend Gulutzan at all costs here, but I do think this decision was over his head. LS-RS is a league trend and to Gio-Hamilton are a better pair than Gio-Brodie ever where. I think it's an easy decision to pick apart but for me, it makes a ton of sense. 

 

Brodie is probably better than most of us feel. Every team needs a D like him, who can skate, move the puck, etc.

[MAC331]

17 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Brodie is probably better than most of us feel. Every team needs a D like him, who can skate, move the puck, etc.

Brodie totally has value and this would be a hockey trade that would benefit both team's needs. We need to have better RW players that can score, scorers are at a premium. Brodie was what a 4th round pick that has given this team some good seasons but if he can help better our future in a trade use him now.

This is why I like the idea of a Brodie for Reinhart trade with BUF, I think Brodie under Housley will get back on track and good for him. Reinhart could fit in here in a number of ways because he is a quality player that has success at both C and RW with a RHS.

[DirtyDeeds]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Brodie totally has value and this would be a hockey trade that would benefit both team's needs. We need to have better RW players that can score, scorers are at a premium. Brodie was what a 4th round pick that has given this team some good seasons but if he can help better our future in a trade use him now.

This is why I like the idea of a Brodie for Reinhart trade with BUF, I think Brodie under Housley will get back on track and good for him. Reinhart could fit in here in a number of ways because he is a quality player that has success at both C and RW with a RHS.

I am curious why you would think Brodie under Housley would get back on track?

 

He would be going from one poor defensive team to a worse one. 

Buffalo is not some magical D factory for development or particularly good at reclamation project players.

Housley has not shown yet he is good with young players either.

Team is bottom of league in most categories....

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I am curious why you would think Brodie under Housley would get back on track?

 

He would be going from one poor defensive team to a worse one. 

Buffalo is not some magical D factory for development or particularly good at reclamation project players.

Housley has not shown yet he is good with young players either.

Team is bottom of league in most categories....

 

The big thing is that Brodie would never want to go to Buffalo.  M-NTC, 8 team list.  Why would anyone?

Unless you like chicken wings.

 

If you are trading with Buffalo, it needs to be a player who can be moved without issue.  

How about Bennett for Okposo?  No restrictions there.  

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I am curious why you would think Brodie under Housley would get back on track?

 

He would be going from one poor defensive team to a worse one. 

Buffalo is not some magical D factory for development or particularly good at reclamation project players.

Housley has not shown yet he is good with young players either.

Team is bottom of league in most categories....

Very similar playing styles and I think Housley would be someone he would take advise from in a constructive way. BUF has a number of good defensemen and need to improve their play from the back end. You are very critical of a coach that has been in the position what 1 year ? You love Brodie I understand that but if he gets me a scorer with 20 to 30 goal potential I'm using him in a trade, no question.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The big thing is that Brodie would never want to go to Buffalo.  M-NTC, 8 team list.  Why would anyone?

Unless you like chicken wings.

 

If you are trading with Buffalo, it needs to be a player who can be moved without issue.  

How about Bennett for Okposo?  No restrictions there.  

Brodie is from ONT he may love to get back East regardless of the team. What would you say the % chance of Bennett for Okposo flying ?

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Brodie is from ONT he may love to get back East regardless of the team. What would you say the % chance of Bennett for Okposo flying ?

 

Little chance, I suppose.  Okposo made sense to them when they signed him.

Trading Kane signaled another re-tool.

ROR will stay.

Pominville only has another year.

 

Bennett fits the age group for them.  He replaces some of what Kane brought.

Maybe send Brouwer and Bennett to make the dollars work?

 

I think Buffalo has a good chance at getting Dahlin, so they may not need Brodie.

[MAC331]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Little chance, I suppose.  Okposo made sense to them when they signed him.

Trading Kane signaled another re-tool.

ROR will stay.

Pominville only has another year.

 

Bennett fits the age group for them.  He replaces some of what Kane brought.

Maybe send Brouwer and Bennett to make the dollars work?

 

I think Buffalo has a good chance at getting Dahlin, so they may not need Brodie.

Trading Kane was going to happen regardless, he wasn't wanted there. Should BUF get Dahlin I agree they likely don't need Brodie. The question becomes who could use Brodie that would benefit us ? Some have mentioned MON, the only player I would even want from them is Gallagher. Some have mentioned CAR, the only player there that could help us is Skinner unless we go defense for defense LS. I wouldn't trade Brodie for the sake of trading him, the goal has to be improvement from our end.