Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The coaches want pairings that have one top Defenseman on each pairing. GG wants to rotate the defensive pairings especially when on the road. Lazy way to coach where he does not have to worry about matching pairings. I liken this to averaging the pairings. He will end up getting average defensive results.

 

Brodie told to play on the side he is not comfortable playing. The coaches however say he should be better on his natural side when he has been playing on the opposite side for a few years now.

 

Personally I think the coaches are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and it is not working.

 

If we were seeing better than average results, then GG is doing the right thing.  But, I think we have seen a lot of average.

[robrob74]

I've seen about 3 games all year.  But the ones I did see, it seems like most are going through the motions, no great opportunities or big excitement. Sure they have the puck, but the scoring chances aren't high quality. The D still have mishaps that cost the game as well. Plus untimely penalties hurt us too.

[robrob74]

The PK may look better,. But taking penalties changes momentum.

[Carty]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The coaches want pairings that have one top Defenseman on each pairing. GG wants to rotate the defensive pairings especially when on the road. Lazy way to coach where he does not have to worry about matching pairings. I liken this to averaging the pairings. He will end up getting average defensive results.

 

Average seems to be best case scenario...   For the most part, the D pairings are a head scratcher...

 

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Brodie told to play on the side he is not comfortable playing. The coaches however say he should be better on his natural side when he has been playing on the opposite side for a few years now.

 

It worries me that they have not put Brodie back on the side where he plays best...   How long are they going to wait ?...

 

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Personally I think the coaches are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and it is not working.

 

Exactly what I have been thinking...

[kehatch]

Giordano doesn't look good. Brodie doesn't look good. Keeping them with partners thst don't make any sense on paper while they don't look good doesn't make a lot of sense. 

 

I get what the coach is trying to do. But it isn't working. Put Brodie with Giordano. Enough is enough . 

[cross16]

I think its time to stop making excuses or trying to appease Gio. The guy is their captain and highest paid player and he needs to step up and play like it. Everytime he gets moved away from Brodie, or Brodie has been hurt, he suddenly becomes barely average and then everytime the answer is to just move them back togeher. Brodie has been fine away from him its time for Gio to step up and stop having excuses provided for him. 

 

If Gio can't function with Brodie then I agree with what others have said that the Flames have to shop him. Flames are in trouble this year and over the next few years if we are going to be foreced to always have Brodie and Gio paired together because Gio can't seem to function without him. 

[MAC331]

40 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think its time to stop making excuses or trying to appease Gio. The guy is their captain and highest paid player and he needs to step up and play like it. Everytime we gets moved away from Brodie he suddenly becomes barely average and then everytime the answer is to just move them back togeher. Brodie has been fine away from him its time for Gio to step up and stop having excuses provided for him. 

 

If Gio can't function with Brodie then I agree with what others have said that the Flames have to shop him. Flames are in trouble this year and over the next few years if we are going to be foreced to always have Brodie and Gio paired together because Gio can't seem to function without him. 

I think we are seeing GG try to instill some belief and confidence into Wideman. He must feel we need Wideman to be a top 4 defenseman and if this is the case Giordano and Brodie have to play LS. Both Giordano and Brodie are mature enough to make the necessary adjustments. I am fine with Giordano and Wideman but Brodie should be with Hamilton not Engelland. Jokipakka should be with Engelland playing lesser minutes.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I think its time to stop making excuses or trying to appease Gio. The guy is their captain and highest paid player and he needs to step up and play like it. Everytime he gets moved away from Brodie, or Brodie has been hurt, he suddenly becomes barely average and then everytime the answer is to just move them back togeher. Brodie has been fine away from him its time for Gio to step up and stop having excuses provided for him. 

 

If Gio can't function with Brodie then I agree with what others have said that the Flames have to shop him. Flames are in trouble this year and over the next few years if we are going to be foreced to always have Brodie and Gio paired together because Gio can't seem to function without him. 

 

I would say you are accurate in that Gio has to step up himself.

 

What I don't like is forcing things and trying to make them happen.  It's one thing to bring in a new system and expect all to fare well.  It's another to break up successful pairs, and hope that three pairings capture the magic.  If it work, then fine.  If it doesn't then what are you accomplishing?

 

I don't think that Wideman and Engelland taken separately are bad D-men.  They have limitations.  They have things they do well.  They are being played because we have no other better options.  If you play Gio-Brodie and Joki-Hamilton, then you are stuck with Wideman-Engelland or sitting one and inserting Kulak.  If you choose to play Wideman top pair minutes, then you limit the effectiveness of Gio.  He can't pinch as much because Wideman can't get back.  Yes, you have forwards, but you also can't have a D-man that can't get back.

 

 

[MAC331]

40 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would say you are accurate in that Gio has to step up himself.

 

What I don't like is forcing things and trying to make them happen.  It's one thing to bring in a new system and expect all to fare well.  It's another to break up successful pairs, and hope that three pairings capture the magic.  If it work, then fine.  If it doesn't then what are you accomplishing?

 

I don't think that Wideman and Engelland taken separately are bad D-men.  They have limitations.  They have things they do well.  They are being played because we have no other better options.  If you play Gio-Brodie and Joki-Hamilton, then you are stuck with Wideman-Engelland or sitting one and inserting Kulak.  If you choose to play Wideman top pair minutes, then you limit the effectiveness of Gio.  He can't pinch as much because Wideman can't get back.  Yes, you have forwards, but you also can't have a D-man that can't get back.

 

 

That is a cop out for Giordano and I highly doubt he thinks that way. As for Wideman saying he can't get back is flat out wrong, he has to be smarter about his positioning on the ice at all times. ( this may be one of his limitations) Anyways GG has his reasons for trying these pairings which are not all wrong in the thinking but like everything else only time will tell.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

What I don't like is forcing things and trying to make them happen.  It's one thing to bring in a new system and expect all to fare well.  It's another to break up successful pairs, and hope that three pairings capture the magic.  If it work, then fine.  If it doesn't then what are you accomplishing?

 

 

IMO the Flames do not have the depth, and likely won't have the depth anytime soon, to stack a pairing with Gio - Brodie. Combine that problem with that they then don't have a partner for Hamilton, you will say Jokipakka but he is not a top 4 dman in my eyes, so if you want a strong D core I think you need to split them up. 11 games is too soon to say they cannot accomplish that but thats why I think Gulutzan is adament on doing it becuase the overal team is likely going to be better for it.

 

I'm just tired of hearing how Gulutzan is messing with Brodie-Gio like its his fault. Gio needs to play better and we should not have to protect Gio like the Flmaes have done the last 2 years.  The Flames also need to support Hamilton much more than they have since they acquired him. 

 

Edit: And also to the whole "why break up a good thing" argument. Last yearFlames were a lottery pick team, worst GAA, Worst GA and bottom 5 in most defensive categories so why "good thing" do they really have going for them? Good team defence needs more than 1 good pairing. 

[MAC331]

26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

IMO the Flames do not have the depth, and likely won't have the depth anytime soon, to stack a pairing with Gio - Brodie. Combine that problem with that they then don't have a partner for Hamilton, you will say Jokipakka but he is not a top 4 dman in my eyes, so if you want a strong D core I think you need to split them up. 11 games is too soon to say they cannot accomplish that but thats why I think Gulutzan is adament on doing it becuase the overal team is likely going to be better for it.

 

I'm just tired of hearing how Gulutzan is messing with Brodie-Gio like its his fault. Gio needs to play better and we should not have to protect Gio like the Flmaes have done the last 2 years.  The Flames also need to support Hamilton much more than they have since they acquired him. 

GG is doing what he thinks will bring the best out of everyone. Like everything else right now people have to have some patience with this team.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

IMO the Flames do not have the depth, and likely won't have the depth anytime soon, to stack a pairing with Gio - Brodie. Combine that problem with that they then don't have a partner for Hamilton, you will say Jokipakka but he is not a top 4 dman in my eyes, so if you want a strong D core I think you need to split them up. 11 games is too soon to say they cannot accomplish that but thats why I think Gulutzan is adament on doing it becuase the overal team is likely going to be better for it.

 

I'm just tired of hearing how Gulutzan is messing with Brodie-Gio like its his fault. Gio needs to play better and we should not have to protect Gio like the Flmaes have done the last 2 years.  The Flames also need to support Hamilton much more than they have since they acquired him. 

 

Hey, I'm not specifically blaming GG for this.  He's tried things.  They work in some cases and don't in others.

Looks like he is trying something different tonight in San Jose:

 

Derek WillsVerified account ‏@Fan960Wills  22m22 minutes agoSan Jose, CA

#Flames projected pairings vs. #Sharks: Giordano-Brodie Jokipakka-Hamilton Kulak-Engelland Goal: Johnson (starter's net) Elliott

[ABC923]

Flames D ranked According to:

 

P/60 (5v5): Hamilton, Jokipakka, Engelland, Wideman, Giordano, Brodie

Corsi% (5v5): Hamilton (51.7), Wideman (48.5), Engelland (48), Giordano (47.3), Jokipakka (46.7), Brodie (45.5)

D-Zone Starts (5v5): Brodie, Hamilton, Engelland, Jokipakka, Giordano, Wideman

O-Zone Starts (5v5): Wideman, Giordano, Jokipakka, Brodie, Hamilton, Engelland

+/-: Engelland (+4), Wideman (+4), Jokipakka (+2), Hamilton (+1), Giordano (-1), Brodie (-8)

Points: Hamilton (6), Giordano (5), Wideman (4), Jokipakka (4), Engelland (2), Brodie (2)

TOI per game: Giordano, Brodie, Wideman, Engelland, Hamilton, Jokipakka

 

Some interesting conclusions can be made here.  First off, there is a case to be made that Hamilton is our best defender this year.  He clearly leads in offensive stats and drives possession better than anyone else at this juncture, all while having the second fewest O-zone starts (by percentage) and the second most D-zone starts (again by percentage.  Arguably he should be getting more ice time.  Second: Engelland is having a very good season.  He leads the team in plus-minus, holds his own in possession, and is generally deployed in a defensive role.  For what he is, we really can't ask for more.  Third: Despite everything, Wideman is actually fairing better than most.  While only Hamilton has a positive corsi, Wideman appears to be holding out just fine.  He is tied for the lead in plus-minus, and is producing some points.  That said, he has the most favourable zone starts on the team.  Fourth: While both Gio and Brodie are off to bad starts, Brodie's is much worse.  He produces the fewest points, is an anchor on possession this year, and has a team worst +/- (and not even close to the next worst at his position).  He has some of the least favourable zone starts on the team, but he really needs to do better. 

 

Finally, on a more positive note, our total defense as a whole is +4 (Kulak is +2, Grossman -1), which indicates that as a team, we are actually doing alright 5v5.  If we can even become average at special teams we might just win a few more games.

[AlbertaBoy12]

35 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

 

 

Finally, on a more positive note, our total defense as a whole is +4 (Kulak is +2, Grossman -1), which indicates that as a team, we are actually doing alright 5v5.  If we can even become average at special teams we might just win a few more games.

Our team D has looked much improved this year. Our top D struggling has not helped but overall the team has looked better which is important. Further our PP was at 25% the past few games they were saying on sports net the other night. Yes we still have work to do but this team is getting better, it's no tire fire 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Our team D has looked much improved this year. Our top D struggling has not helped but overall the team has looked better which is important. Further our PP was at 25% the past few games they were saying on sports net the other night. Yes we still have work to do but this team is getting better, it's no tire fire 

 

Our PP at home is non-existent.  That is not good in any way, shape or form.   

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Our PP at home is non-existent.  That is not good in any way, shape or form.   

I would agree there is issues but the improvements are coming. This team is getting better. No matter what you say about these D pairings the flames team D is not near as big of a tire fire as it was last year

[kehatch]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think its time to stop making excuses or trying to appease Gio. The guy is their captain and highest paid player and he needs to step up and play like it. Everytime he gets moved away from Brodie, or Brodie has been hurt, he suddenly becomes barely average and then everytime the answer is to just move them back togeher. Brodie has been fine away from him its time for Gio to step up and stop having excuses provided for him. 

 

If Gio can't function with Brodie then I agree with what others have said that the Flames have to shop him. Flames are in trouble this year and over the next few years if we are going to be foreced to always have Brodie and Gio paired together because Gio can't seem to function without him. 

 

They are putting him with Wideman and then throwing him against the other teams top lines.  Suggesting that this isn't putting him in a position to be successful isn't the same as saying he needs to be with Brodie to be successful.  Not even close.  You can say the same thing about Brodie and Engelland.  These are pairings that don't work.  

 

I understand why he is doing it.  But having one effective pairing that plays close to half of the game 5 on 5 vs three ineffective pairings makes much more sense.  Besides, Jokipakka/Hamilton was an effective pairing to end last season and there isn't anything wrong with Kulak/Engelland or Kulak/Wideman as a third pairing.  It isn't like the Flames only option is to split the two up to put forward a respectable D.  

 

Fortunately the coach is going back to pairings that make sense rather then continue to try and force something that doesn't work.  About time.  

[kehatch]

12 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

I would agree there is issues but the improvements are coming. This team is getting better. No matter what you say about these D pairings the flames team D is not near as big of a tire fire as it was last year

 

Agreed.  One of the things that Gulutzen is doing well is playing a more structured and aggressive defensive system.  One that goes beyond collapse in front of the net, get a block or a save, then throw a stretch pass up the middle.  We are seeing that improvement on the ice and via the possession numbers.  They have played well the last 6 or so games even in the last two losses.  

[cross16]

37 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

They are putting him with Wideman and then throwing him against the other teams top lines.  Suggesting that this isn't putting him in a position to be successful isn't the same as saying he needs to be with Brodie to be successful.  Not even close.  You can say the same thing about Brodie and Engelland.  These are pairings that don't work.  

 

I understand why he is doing it.  But having one effective pairing that plays close to half of the game 5 on 5 vs three ineffective pairings makes much more sense.  Besides, Jokipakka/Hamilton was an effective pairing to end last season and there isn't anything wrong with Kulak/Engelland or Kulak/Wideman as a third pairing.  It isn't like the Flames only option is to split the two up to put forward a respectable D.  

 

Fortunately the coach is going back to pairings that make sense rather then continue to try and force something that doesn't work.  About time.  

 

Then why is the answer to always put him back with Brodie?

 

I disagree with the bolded as well. Sure a "respectable" D maybe but not a very good D. I dont' think Jokipakka-Hamilton is that solid a 2nd pairing and its certainly not a pairing I would wnat to lean on for 20-22 mins a night every night. I don't beleive Jokipakka is a solid enough dman in to be able to play those type of minutes and cover up for Hamilton. Not to mention I think they would get murded when it comes to line matchups. 

 

Gulutzan is really limited in what he can do but hopefully the Flames can rebuild their d in the offeseason and commit to some better pairings. IMO, they'll never get to where they want to be if they insist on keeping Gio-Brodie together and certainly won't if Gio can't prove he is a good NHL dman away from Brodie. 

[kehatch]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Then why is the answer to always put him back with Brodie?

 

I disagree with the bolded as well. Sure a "respectable" D maybe but not a very good D. I dont' think Jokipakka-Hamilton is that solid a 2nd pairing and its certainly not a pairing I would wnat to lean on for 20-22 mins a night every night. I don't beleive Jokipakka is a solid enough dman in to be able to play those type of minutes and cover up for Hamilton. Not to mention I think they would get murded when it comes to line matchups. 

 

Gulutzan is really limited in what he can do but hopefully the Flames can rebuild their d in the offeseason and commit to some better pairings. IMO, they'll never get to where they want to be if they insist on keeping Gio-Brodie together and certainly won't if Gio can't prove he is a good NHL dman away from Brodie. 

 

The argument will go around in circles.  You keep suggesting Giordano can't play without Brodie.  Once again, Giordano can't play top pairing minutes next to Wideman.  There aren't many (or any) D in the league that could.  The reason people keep going back to Giordano/Brodie is because it was one of the top pairings in the league a season ago, not because that is the only way Giordano can play solid hockey.  

 

Yes, the Flames need to find a D to play with Hamilton in the off season.  But there isn't any reason to split up Giordano-Brodie short term or long term.  But if you want to split them up Giordano-Engelland, Brodie-Hamilton makes a bunch more sense in my opinion.  Wideman alternating between healthy scratch and the top pair doesn't make much sense.  

[cross16]

17 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

The argument will go around in circles.  You keep suggesting Giordano can't play without Brodie.  Once again, Giordano can't play top pairing minutes next to Wideman.  There aren't many (or any) D in the league that could.  The reason people keep going back to Giordano/Brodie is because it was one of the top pairings in the league a season ago, not because that is the only way Giordano can play solid hockey.  

 

 

He has yet to away from Brodie, not at last for a few years at least. He wasn't very good with Hamilton last year and Flames rushed him back with Brodie. That is what i'm getting at there seems to be a theme developing that Gio needs Brodie far mor than the other way around and rather then focus on Gio, media/fans are quick to rush back to Gio/Brodie and i'm not a fan of that. Sure they were one of the top pairings but their team and specifcially their team defence was terrible. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Yes, the Flames need to find a D to play with Hamilton in the off season.  But there isn't any reason to split up Giordano-Brodie short term or long term.  But if you want to split them up Giordano-Engelland, Brodie-Hamilton makes a bunch more sense in my opinion.  Wideman alternating between healthy scratch and the top pair doesn't make much sense.  

 

I'm fine with those pairings, except for the fact that Brodie seems uncomfortable playiing the left side right now. NOt sure if that is temporary or not but that is my only hesitation.

I'm fine with further experimenting and i'm not suggesting the way they had it was perfect or the way it should be I just don't agree with how the Flames are handling their d core, don't agree with how they are handling Hamilton, and don't like that the answer to it is to put Gio-Brodie back together. 

[travel_dude]

Cross, I'm not sure that we can say Gio away from Brodie is a problem.  Gio with a solid defensive player would be fine.  Gio with Hamilton was something that didn't work early last season, mostly because Gio was less than 100%.  The alternative, once Brodie came back was Russell-Hamilton, which was horrible.  Hamilton improved immensely as the season went on.

 

This season we have seen mostly Gio-Wideman.  That is not something that would or should fare well against top offensive lines.  You might get away with Gio-Engelland for less than 20 minutes.  Maybe Jokipakka is fine for less than 20 minutes, and throw Brodie in there for a couple.  I think you underrate Jokipakka a bit.  I have seen some smart plays coming from him.  He is stronger on the boards than Brodie and more mobile than Wdeman.  He is the 2nd best LD we currently have.  

 

Anyway, I think we are just going around the topic again, so I will drop it.  We can't fix it unless a trade happens or until next off-season.  IMHO it's better to have a top pairing, a 2nd pairing that is quite good, and a 3rd pair you can trust.   I see no value in having three average pairs.

[cross16]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Cross, I'm not sure that we can say Gio away from Brodie is a problem.  Gio with a solid defensive player would be fine.  Gio with Hamilton was something that didn't work early last season, mostly because Gio was less than 100%.  The alternative, once Brodie came back was Russell-Hamilton, which was horrible.  Hamilton improved immensely as the season went on.

 

This season we have seen mostly Gio-Wideman.  That is not something that would or should fare well against top offensive lines.  You might get away with Gio-Engelland for less than 20 minutes.  Maybe Jokipakka is fine for less than 20 minutes, and throw Brodie in there for a couple.  I think you underrate Jokipakka a bit.  I have seen some smart plays coming from him.  He is stronger on the boards than Brodie and more mobile than Wdeman.  He is the 2nd best LD we currently have.  

 

Anyway, I think we are just going around the topic again, so I will drop it.  We can't fix it unless a trade happens or until next off-season.  IMHO it's better to have a top pairing, a 2nd pairing that is quite good, and a 3rd pair you can trust.   I see no value in having three average pairs.

 

We can't say definitively no, but injury or not that fact is that so far over the last 3 seasons Gio away from Brodie hasn't been very good. Brodie away from Gio has been good, for the most part. So while not a definitive answer there is evidence building that Gio may not be as good without Brodie as he is with Brodie. part of what I'm saying is I want to find that out so I want to see Gio play with others but instead we are going back to our "safe haven".

 

We differ strongly on how you breakdown the D cores, but that is at the heart of this. Its looking like I may be on my own here and thats fine but IMO the Flames have 1 top pair, a below average pair (especially defensivly) and a servicable but not outstanding 3rd pair. Doesn't exactly scream confidence to me. Having that top pair together hasn't exactly meant good thigns for the Flames overal D the last 2 seasons. They were terrible last year and barely average the year prior. 

[kehatch]

I am not sure what your arguing. Initially you were saying we had to separate Gaudreau and Brodie to balance the lines. Now your saying we need to trade Giordano because he can't play without Brodie. 

 

The latter contradicts the former doesn't it? 

 

Bottom line for me is Brodie and Giordano are better together then they are apart. So let's keep them together . 

[xstrike]

What's funny about all this is that we're carrying 8 defensemen.

 

I think brodie will have to play on the left side if he isn't playing on Giordano's right.

 

With no brodano, I'd go like this.

Gio Engelland 

Brodie Hamilton

Kulak Jokipakka

 

OR if you really want Brodie on the right [assuming no Gioham]

 

Gio  Engelland

Kulak Brodie

Jokipakka Hamilton

 

Okay, it's really hard to do unless you put Gio with Hamilton.