Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

Did anyone else see the video they showed of Gio skating and stick handling. He looked good.

What a huge boost it would be to get him back.

The biggest issue with recovery is getting the mobility and strength back. That takes time.

When you lose use of your arm for even a week, you have very little muscle mass and your arm forgets how to move. The physio is intense.

[kehatch]

Giordano is targeting the third round. At least according to tonight's broadcast.

[Ameter]

Giordano is targeting the third round. At least according to tonight's broadcast.

Third round makes sense.

If we can beat the ducks and then get Gio back, I can see us making the finals. I'm yearning to see a Flames-Canadiens final.

[Heartbreaker]

Third round makes sense.

If we can beat the ducks and then get Gio back, I can see us making the finals. I'm yearning to see a Flames-Canadiens final.

Can you imagine how butthurt Bettman would be?! First, McDavid to Edmonton, then, a small market Canadian team playing another Canadian(en) team for the cup?!

The worst!

Love.

[Jessemadnote39]

Here's a phrase I never thought I'd say:

England did a good job in a shut down role against the Sedin's this series...

What?! Seriously talk about stepping it up.

[JTech780]

I used to be a big proponent of size on the back end, but these playoffs have me changing my mind on that. Skating ability is the most important asset on the back end.

Vancouver's back end couldn't skate and ended up getting killed by our forecheck. Anaheim has plenty of guys who aren't the biggest but they can skate and we had a lot of trouble getting in on the forecheck because their D was able to move the puck before we could get anything going.

If we are looking at the UFA market I would be interested in any of the following:

Paul Martin

Johnny Oduya

Andrej Sekera

All these guys are able to skate.

[travel_dude]

I used to be a big proponent of size on the back end, but these playoffs have me changing my mind on that. Skating ability is the most important asset on the back end.

Vancouver's back end couldn't skate and ended up getting killed by our forecheck. Anaheim has plenty of guys who aren't the biggest but they can skate and we had a lot of trouble getting in on the forecheck because their D was able to move the puck before we could get anything going.

If we are looking at the UFA market I would be interested in any of the following:

Paul Martin

Johnny Oduya

Andrej Sekera

All these guys are able to skate.

 

Lumping Engelland in with other big D-men is not really fair.  If Russell was bigger than 5'10", he might have had an easier time with the Maroon/Getzlaf/Perry line.  He has the heart of a lion, but he can't take out a guy 5 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier 20+ minutes per game.

 

I would take a combo of Brodie's skills, Gio's toughness and Kanzig's size every day.  Vancouver's biggest guy is Edler (6'3" 215 pounds, not exactly bruiser size) and is not a fierce player.  They were afraid of taking hits.  If Big Buff or Ferland or Chara is coming at your D-men, do you want to have a Kanzig size player or a Russell size player?

[JTech780]

Lumping Engelland in with other big D-men is not really fair. If Russell was bigger than 5'10", he might have had an easier time with the Maroon/Getzlaf/Perry line. He has the heart of a lion, but he can't take out a guy 5 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier 20+ minutes per game.

I would take a combo of Brodie's skills, Gio's toughness and Kanzig's size every day. Vancouver's biggest guy is Edler (6'3" 215 pounds, not exactly bruiser size) and is not a fierce player. They were afraid of taking hits. If Big Buff or Ferland or Chara is coming at your D-men, do you want to have a Kanzig size player or a Russell size player?

If you can get a player that is 6'3" or bigger and can skate like Brodie or Russell, then you have it made. The problem is that there isn't too many of those guys around and when there is there are 29 other teams trying to sign him.

At the end of the day I will take the skating ability over size.

I would say that Wideman is one if our worst skaters on the back end and he seemed to have the most trouble against Anaheim's forecheck.

[cfreining]

I am not sure, but I had the feeling that Russel hat a couple of issues with the forecheck and made some bad plays. He had even during the season some problems.

 

But on the other side he is a fearless blocker and maybe saved some other players back more often that way.....

[cross16]

I think you have to strike a balance because while I like the current skating ability of the Flames back end I think their lack of size really hurt them in the Ducks series. Where I do agree with JTech is gone are the days of the big physical/stay at home dman that can just skate OK but you want the size and physicality they bring. Those players are dead, IMO at least, but I don't think the concept of size is dead. The Flames struggle a lot with bigger teams getting in on them in the forecheck and they basically have to collapse to the net and try and block shots to keep the pucks away from the net. They can't really engage forecheckers and stop the cycle and turn it around so that why I don't agree size is not longer important and I think if the Flames D core had a bit more grit to it this series would have been different. While I know we marvel at the Flames shot blocking ability and while I don't want to take away from the courage and tenacity it takes to block a shot, the reality is IMO you can't as a team operate that way all the time and have success. Blocking that many shots means you don't have the puck enough so I want guys that can help me get the puck and get out of my own end. That's where you need the mix of size and skating ability.

 

I think this Flames D is good enough to try and chase the right type of player instead of just signing anyone to just fill a need. Honestly save for a player that may add some NHL/AHL depth I don't see anyone on the free agent market I have interest in. I'd rather return the Flames current blueline, maybe get Schlemko back if the deal is fair, and let him battle it out with the likes of Morrisey, Wotherspoon, Ramage etc for the last spot. Then if a trade open up you can take it, but I don't see free agency as a good tool for improving the defence this offseason.

[420since1974]

I know that many fans want a trade to accelerate the Flames rebuild, but I feel that they are progressing fine just as they are.

 

They are already ahead of schedule, I'd be tempted to stay with the same lineup next season with the only tweaks coming from within the current organization.

 

Until Calgary can rid themselves of bad contracts such as Smid, Engelland, & Raymond, I'd stay the course.

[DirtyDeeds]

I think you have to strike a balance because while I like the current skating ability of the Flames back end I think their lack of size really hurt them in the Ducks series. Where I do agree with JTech is gone are the days of the big physical/stay at home dman that can just skate OK but you want the size and physicality they bring. Those players are dead, IMO at least, but I don't think the concept of size is dead. The Flames struggle a lot with bigger teams getting in on them in the forecheck and they basically have to collapse to the net and try and block shots to keep the pucks away from the net. They can't really engage forecheckers and stop the cycle and turn it around so that why I don't agree size is not longer important and I think if the Flames D core had a bit more grit to it this series would have been different. While I know we marvel at the Flames shot blocking ability and while I don't want to take away from the courage and tenacity it takes to block a shot, the reality is IMO you can't as a team operate that way all the time and have success. Blocking that many shots means you don't have the puck enough so I want guys that can help me get the puck and get out of my own end. That's where you need the mix of size and skating ability.

 

I think this Flames D is good enough to try and chase the right type of player instead of just signing anyone to just fill a need. Honestly save for a player that may add some NHL/AHL depth I don't see anyone on the free agent market I have interest in. I'd rather return the Flames current blueline, maybe get Schlemko back if the deal is fair, and let him battle it out with the likes of Morrisey, Wotherspoon, Ramage etc for the last spot. Then if a trade open up you can take it, but I don't see free agency as a good tool for improving the defence this offseason.

 We can't say how much different our backend D would have been had Gio been healthy. Yes size and grit was a problem against the Ducks but that was without Gio. While Gio is really a moderate sized D he excels at D play and moving the puck.

 

I can only think that had we been able to ice our Gio/Brodie tandem against Getzlaf and Perry, that they would not have had nearly the same effect on the scoreboard. Especially the first couple of games.

[cross16]

I don't think you need to accelerate the rebuild, the rebuild is done this is about building. Rebuilding to me means you are trading away assets, clearing cap room and trading core pieces and all that has been done. What more pieces are on the club that need to be dealt away? Sure you may not like the contracts of Engelland, Smid, Raymond, but you are not "rebuilding" just because you have a few contracts you don't like. This teams has key young players in good situations, has identified a good chunk of what could be a core moving forward, and has cap space to lock up that core so IMO the Flames are no longer rebuilding, they are building and in order to build you may have to make trades to improve the roster. I'm not saying sell the farm out to a trade and overpay, far from that. You still need to be smart but I also really disagree with the notion that the Flames should sit on their hands and let the "rebuild" continue because IMO the rebuild is over especially on the blueline. I'd be more inclined to agree that the rebuild was ongoing if they were waiting for top prospects on the blueline but they aren't. The top prospects are already here and contributing so you are drafting to keep the cupboard stocked, not re stock them.

[Flyerfan52]

Watching the Ducks against the Jets & Flames I wanted the Flames to pursue Beauchemin as he becomes a UFA this year.

THN has him listed as 34 & I thought "great. No 35+ contract" but then looked @ his birthdate. June 4, 1980 making him 35 by UFA day. I wonder if he'd be open to a 1-2 year offer? Last contract was 3.5 cap hit so 4.5-5.0 x 2 sounds good to me for now with all further contracts being 1 year based on previous season to avoid that Pronger situation the Flyers are stuck with.

 

Dang he'd be a nice addition to our blue line!

[rocketdoctor]

The dman that impressed me lots this year in opposition colours was Roman Josi of the Preds.    Would love to see him in Flames uniform.  But wishful thinking never got us anywhere.

 

I think we return this years D core and add Schlemko to the mix.  Let Smid go.  Diaz seemed to get better as the season progressed.   Not convinced Potter brings anymore than Wotherspoon.

[The_People1]

Pre-2004, an ideal blueline would include:

2 D for puck moving

4 D for size and toughness

 

In today's NHL, an ideal blueline would include:

4 D for puck moving

2 D for size and toughness

 

The Flames enjoyed a lot of surprising success from their D this season because their D is basically built around this ideal.  With Smid healthy, it was 4 puck movers and 2 for size and toughness.  We ended the playoffs with only Engellend for size and toughness which was one reason for the downfall.

 

Moving forward,

Giordano - Brodie

Russell - Wideman

(A BIG & TOUGH D) - Engellend

 

We don't really need to upgrade the top 4 unless we bring in a Dman who can do both, move the puck and offer size.

[tachaudh]

Pre-2004, an ideal blueline would include:

2 D for puck moving

4 D for size and toughness

 

In today's NHL, an ideal blueline would include:

4 D for puck moving

2 D for size and toughness

 

The Flames enjoyed a lot of surprising success from their D this season because their D is basically built around this ideal.  With Smid healthy, it was 4 puck movers and 2 for size and toughness.  We ended the playoffs with only Engellend for size and toughness which was one reason for the downfall.

 

Moving forward,

Giordano - Brodie

Russell - Wideman

(A BIG & TOUGH D) - Engellend

 

We don't really need to upgrade the top 4 unless we bring in a Dman who can do both, move the puck and offer size.

 

Moving forward, that quite simply is not good enough. In my mind guys like Russell, Wideman, Engelland, Schlemko are solid 5-6 guys. We have a glaring hole at 3-4. While I love these guys to pieces, the reason we had to block so many shots is because we just can't hack it possession wise. Blocking a shot should be a last resort, but that wasn't the case with us this year.

 

How we fill that 3-4 slot in is anyone's guess but as long as we have guys like Russell and Wideman patrolling the blue line in our 3-4 spot, we're not making it to the next level. 

[kehatch]

Your D has to be mobile and be competent at both ends of the ice. I don't want any slow defence only D on my team. They are liabilities that lead to fire drills on your own end and who limit your team offence on the rush and on the offensive zone. I also don't want Babchuck like D that can only assist in the offensive zone.

But I agree you need size as well. Which is why 2 way big physical and mobile D are the most sought after commodity this side of the legitimate top line C.

[MAC331]

Yeah I don't think you put the 2 big guys together in the last pairing, where is the value in that ?

Let's just say Smid is healthy and could play, I see him used with Wideman on the LS. Russell and Engelland would be the 3rd pairing.

 

Could BT improve this scenario all around, sure so let us see what he manages to do this offseason.

[travel_dude]

Your D has to be mobile and be competent at both ends of the ice. I don't want any slow defence only D on my team. They are liabilities that lead to fire drills on your own end and who limit your team offence on the rush and on the offensive zone. I also don't want Babchuck like D that can only assist in the offensive zone.

But I agree you need size as well. Which is why 2 way big physical and mobile D are the most sought after commodity this side of the legitimate top line C.

 

I would settle for a defensive, punishing D-man.  Engelland is only 1/2 that.  Having Russell and Wideman on the same pair tells the opposite tale.  Two offensive-minded players.  If you had a faster Regehr-like player with Wideman or Russell you would be better off.  One takes the offense, the other crushes players entering the zone or cycling the puck.

 

Gio/Brodie (Brodano) is a study in that kind of pairing.  Gio takes offense, and Brodie covers both sides if Gio pinches.  Or vice-versa.  Only thing lacking is the punishing hits, but Gio does his fair share.  The third pair (Diaz/Engelland/Schlemko/Smid) lacks the shut-down/hard-hitting guy.  Smid and Engelland are too slow.  Schlemko is too small.  Diaz is not a great 1st pass or real offensive threat.  Wotherspoon is a bit of both, but too light yet to be a punishing D-man.  His skating is good, but his offense is unproven so far.  Morrison is an unknown, but is reported to be somewhat mean. 

 

Yeah I don't think you put the 2 big guys together in the last pairing, where is the value in that ?

Let's just say Smid is healthy and could play, I see him used with Wideman on the LS. Russell and Engelland would be the 3rd pairing.

 

Could BT improve this scenario all around, sure so let us see what he manages to do this offseason.

 

Smid was bad with Wideman or Russell.  I think moving on from Smid, Engelland, and Diaz is likely a good thing.  Petry was a guy I was high on when EDM was looking to move him, but he is likely to get a tidy sum at FA time.

[JTech780]

There are a lot of questions on our back end going into next season. The guarantee's are Giordano, Brodie and Russell.

Giordano has shown that he us an elite defenseman at both ends of the ice. He has also become one of the best leaders and captains in the game.

Brodie took a big leap forward this year bother offensively and defensively. The scary thing is that he still has room to grow and he has the skills to get there. If he can cut down on forcing plays that just aren't there on the break outs and in the offensive zone, while also playing the body just a little more instead of just relying on his stick, Brodie can take the next step to becoming and elite defenseman.

Russell might be one if the most underrated defenseman in the league. I have him as our 3rd best defenseman year. He makes a good first pass, he can skate the puck out of the zone, he finds ways to the puck through from the point, he is one the best defenseman at poistining himself in the defensive zone. If Russell was 6'3" 215lbs we would be talking about a 1st pairing defenseman.

Wideman has great offensive instincts. The same can't be said defensively. He is also slowing down. I think we should look at trading him while his value is at an all time Hugh and before he loses another step.

Engelland looked better and better as the season went on. Does his contract suck, kind of yeah and I don't see us getting too many takers for his services so in the meantime he will serve as solid 6th defenseman.

Smid looked terrible this year. Injuries probably had a huge part to play in that. Those injuries will also be huge question marks going into next year. Will he ever play again? If so how effective will he be? Smid and his $3.5 million contract will play a big role in what Treliving can do in the offseason.

What do we do with Schlemko and Diaz going forward? Both are solid 7th defenseman but neither are players you want in your top 6 everyday.

The prospect pool isn't great, Wotherspoon got some great experience in the playoffs, hopefully he can take that experience and build on it. He looked OK, but not great. Morrison is an interesting case, he had a great start to his pro career, but how close is he to being NHL? Culkin, Kulak and Ramage all took steps forward this year, but all are a ways away from being ready for the next step.

[travel_dude]

There are a lot of questions on our back end going into next season. The guarantee's are Giordano, Brodie and Russell.

Giordano has shown that he us an elite defenseman at both ends of the ice. He has also become one of the best leaders and captains in the game.

Brodie took a big leap forward this year bother offensively and defensively. The scary thing is that he still has room to grow and he has the skills to get there. If he can cut down on forcing plays that just aren't there on the break outs and in the offensive zone, while also playing the body just a little more instead of just relying on his stick, Brodie can take the next step to becoming and elite defenseman.

Russell might be one if the most underrated defenseman in the league. I have him as our 3rd best defenseman year. He makes a good first pass, he can skate the puck out of the zone, he finds ways to the puck through from the point, he is one the best defenseman at poistining himself in the defensive zone. If Russell was 6'3" 215lbs we would be talking about a 1st pairing defenseman.

Wideman has great offensive instincts. The same can't be said defensively. He is also slowing down. I think we should look at trading him while his value is at an all time Hugh and before he loses another step.

Engelland looked better and better as the season went on. Does his contract suck, kind of yeah and I don't see us getting too many takers for his services so in the meantime he will serve as solid 6th defenseman.

Smid looked terrible this year. Injuries probably had a huge part to play in that. Those injuries will also be huge question marks going into next year. Will he ever play again? If so how effective will he be? Smid and his $3.5 million contract will play a big role in what Treliving can do in the offseason.

What do we do with Schlemko and Diaz going forward? Both are solid 7th defenseman but neither are players you want in your top 6 everyday.

The prospect pool isn't great, Wotherspoon got some great experience in the playoffs, hopefully he can take that experience and build on it. He looked OK, but not great. Morrison is an interesting case, he had a great start to his pro career, but how close is he to being NHL? Culkin, Kulak and Ramage all took steps forward this year, but all are a ways away from being ready for the next step.

 

Saying Wideman is slowing down seems strange, since he had a career year. The previous year was bad due to multiple injuries.

If he is your offensive D-man, then you pair him up with the guy that gets the defensive work done.  Trading him makes us weaker offensively.  Russell could up his defensive game if his backup was a defense first player, but his best year was still only 7 goals.

 

Wideman and Gio both have 2-3 really good years ahead of them before we see much tailing off.  Likely Gio tails off due to his hard-nosed play.

[JTech780]

Saying Wideman is slowing down seems strange, since he had a career year. The previous year was bad due to multiple injuries.

If he is your offensive D-man, then you pair him up with the guy that gets the defensive work done. Trading him makes us weaker offensively. Russell could up his defensive game if his backup was a defense first player, but his best year was still only 7 goals.

Wideman and Gio both have 2-3 really good years ahead of them before we see much tailing off. Likely Gio tails off due to his hard-nosed play.

I meant he is slowing down skating wise. I see Wideman as a liability defensively and I think being paired with Russell covered a lot of his short comings on that side of things.

Wideman is very good offensively there is no doubt about that, he also stepped it up in that department after Gio went down, so I get why people would hesitant to trade him. I think we have the guys that can produce offensively to cover for the loss of Wideman if he was traded.

[Wreckening]

I meant he is slowing down skating wise. I see Wideman as a liability defensively and I think being paired with Russell covered a lot of his short comings on that side of things.

Wideman is very good offensively there is no doubt about that, he also stepped it up in that department after Gio went down, so I get why people would hesitant to trade him. I think we have the guys that can produce offensively to cover for the loss of Wideman if he was traded.

I agree. Of any player on this team I could part with would be Wideman. Don't get me wrong, I respect him for all he has done here and really like him as a player. I wouldn't take anything less than a 2nd rounder and a prospect for him though, that's minimum. I think he has great value right now and if you could land a bigger and skilled RW through a trade you have to do the deal.

 

I'm not keen with Bennett on the right side. He is a Center and I believed he looked out of place at times during the playoffs playing on the wing. He still managed to impress but I think he was out of his comfort zone.

 

My top six for next year would look something like:

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler : Why mess with success.

Ferland - Bennett - Poirier : Great 1-2 punch with the top line. Physicality and skill.

[The_Argus]

If the Flames are going to keep Wideman, I would like to see them bring someone else in to upgrade the top 4, and transition Wideman into an offensive specialist role. In that case, Wideman might only get third pairing minutes 5-on-5 but would get lots of extra time on the power play to make up for it. Potentially, that would give us a killer third pairing, and then we have someone who you know can step up if someone in the top 4 gets hurt. (And let's be honest, how often do you go a whole season without losing one of your top 4 guys at some point?)

 

I would also be fine with trading Wideman, though, if someone is willing to overpay based on his career year.