The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Local Amateur hockey is screaming for more hockey arenas.. I will take a guess that they don't like to only ice times after midnight available to them with our present facilities.

 

On the Fieldhouse front I believe Edmonton has 4 of them.... Calgary has none...

Maybe Neshi can put in a bid for Kraft Hockeyville to see if he can get a donation for a hockey arena.  Seems like he will only do it now as part of a Olympic bid.

 

[robrob74]

29 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Maybe Neshi can put in a bid for Kraft Hockeyville to see if he can get a donation for a hockey arena.  Seems like he will only do it now as part of a Olympic bid.

 

 

Thats the passive aggressive route. This way he gets to appease all.

[cross16]

This is an emotional topic so I get the response but I think quite a bit is getting lost here. 

 

1. There is no short track speed skating facility at the U of C. It's a long track venue. 

2. The idea of hosting hockey in Edmonton was floated by Nenshi. BidCo has never put forward that idea. 

3. The Olympics require ice times for hockey(men's and women's), curling, short track speed skating and figure skating. Hosting all of that in the dome is not at all feasible. You need another ice surface and one with the cacpatity to sell tickets. 

4. The Coral was barely deemed safe for the 1 WHL game they played there and certain areas had to be restricted. Even with renovations can it handle an Olympics? Could probably build a new facility for the cost of renovating the Coral

5. Calgary hosts 1 NHL team, 1 WHL team 3 junior teams, 1 pro women's team and 3 university hockey programs and has an arena crisis at multiple levels. I'm not sure i agree there is no long term need for a 5-6K arena, there is plenty of need. 

6. The flames have already agreed to pledge money to a new building and negotiations are on going. Why would Bidco get involved and why would the try and fully fund a mostly private venture when private sector has already agreed to take part? 

7. The point behind the Olympics, and why Nenshi and most want them, is the infrastructure benefits. An article I linked explains this well but if calgary were to win they'll get a bunch of money for infrastructure projects that they never would have received and don't have themselves. If you look at Vancouver they have quite a few legacy projects that improved their city but didn't put an extreme burden on their civic budget/books. 

 

Now to be clear I'm actually not for an Olympic bid at this point. I'd like to see more details to the proposal first and I don't think we have been well enough informed to date so I hope more is coming but I think many are jumping the gun here. 

 

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

So as an outsider looking in can I ask a couple questions that may seem obvious?

 

- Where were all the alpine/snowboard/x-country events held in '88? Why wouldn't they be suggested now?

- How much were the purpose built facilities from '88 used after the fact? (ski jump, luge track)

- When is your next civic election? Would the mayor have reason to think he'd still be around?

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

How old is the Corral? I remember watching a game there the first year that the Flames came to town when I was a kid. I thought it was a huge facility back then. 

The Stampede Corral is a multi-purpose venue (ice hockey, rodeo, tennis) in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Located on the grounds of Stampede Park, the arena was completed in 1950 at a cost of C$1.25 million ($12.8 million today) to replace Victoria Arena as the home of the Calgary Stampeders minor professional hockey club

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stampede_Corral

[DirtyDeeds]

15 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

So as an outsider looking in can I ask a couple questions that may seem obvious?

 

- Where were all the alpine/snowboard/x-country events held in '88? Why wouldn't they be suggested now?

- How much were the purpose built facilities from '88 used after the fact? (ski jump, luge track)

- When is your next civic election? Would the mayor have reason to think he'd still be around?

 

Snowboarding it was not around back then as a suggested Olympic Event and not even a demonstration event.

 

As for the Mayor.. Well He just went through an election where the New Arena was one of the major objectives of his biggest competitors campaign. Nanshi  defeated him and took that as a sign that the people sided with him over the Arena debate.(Partly because he was opposed to Calgary Next but claimed to be supportive of an East Village Arena project.

[Cowtownguy]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

This is an emotional topic so I get the response but I think quite a bit is getting lost here. 

 

Now to be clear I'm actually not for an Olympic bid at this point. I'd like to see more details to the proposal first and I don't think we have been well enough informed to date so I hope more is coming but I think many are jumping the gun here. 

 

 

I don't need to wait for a weather person to tell me that the sun will rise tomorrow. The Olympics are a loser made attractive only by creative accountants and opportunistic politicians. 

[The_People1]

5 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I don't need to wait for a weather person to tell me that the sun will rise tomorrow. The Olympics are a loser made attractive only by creative accountants and opportunistic politicians. 

 

Well, so are stadiums and arenas.  Unfortunately.

[Cowtownguy]

8 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well, so are stadiums and arenas.  Unfortunately.

True enough. That is why I am not convinced that the city should spend money on a new arena. But, if I am forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, I will choose a new arena for the Flames because we have already committed to some investment in it, and the rest could be paid for with tax dollars from other levels of government. I like spending other people's money. If Nenshi blows a lot of our money on the Olympics and fails to use the influx of new cash on a new area, then I think we should "git a rope". And, you know, this would be a good time to implement a small airport tax for future infrastructure investment when the next arena is needed in 30 years. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

So as an outsider looking in can I ask a couple questions that may seem obvious?

 

- Where were all the alpine/snowboard/x-country events held in '88? Why wouldn't they be suggested now?

- How much were the purpose built facilities from '88 used after the fact? (ski jump, luge track)

- When is your next civic election? Would the mayor have reason to think he'd still be around?

 

I'm guessing some of the ski hills have been privatized and so can't really be used unless the owners get involved.

 

A few years back, I red Calgary's Olympic facilities were one of the most used after the fact. Even comparing to Vancouver, I think some of their facilities have been converted into YMCA type multi-use facility.  Many countries convert their buildings like speed skating ovals into indoor soccer facilities and stuff like that.  Some countries level their facilities because they sit on prime real estate and they build condos and office towers.

 

Nenshi just got re-elected. 

[conundrumed]

45 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I don't need to wait for a weather person to tell me that the sun will rise tomorrow. The Olympics are a loser made attractive only by creative accountants and opportunistic politicians. 

Hallelujah.

Can't raise $5bil to feed and shelter the homeless, advance the educational system, health care and societal infrastructure.

But we can raise $5bil to host an international sporting event for a few weeks.

Sadly, if we win the bid, all I want is an ongoing investigation into how the money is spent and which contractors/land use are connected to which politician.

WhichHunt?

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Hallelujah.

Can't raise $5bil to feed and shelter the homeless, advance the educational system, health care and societal infrastructure.

But we can raise $5bil to host an international sporting event for a few weeks.

Sadly, if we win the bid, all I want is an ongoing investigation into how the money is spent and which contractors/land use are connected to which politician.

WhichHunt?

 

Makes me want to scheme up a way to pocket a mil for myself somehow.

[cross16]

19 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I don't need to wait for a weather person to tell me that the sun will rise tomorrow. The Olympics are a loser made attractive only by creative accountants and opportunistic politicians. 

 

Completely fair. Totally understand that some will never want the Olympics and that's very fair. not suggesting we all get behind an Olympic bid, but I do feel that in other ways their are a lot of conclusions being reached without facts (ie Hockey will be hosted in Edmonton, there will be no NHL arena etc etc). 

[Cowtownguy]

58 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Completely fair. Totally understand that some will never want the Olympics and that's very fair. not suggesting we all get behind an Olympic bid, but I do feel that in other ways their are a lot of conclusions being reached without facts (ie Hockey will be hosted in Edmonton, there will be no NHL arena etc etc). 

That makes sense.  I am not saying that the city is going to do so, I try to couch my ideas as "if the city does x, then ...". The Olympics and the NHL have much in common. They offer up unique social entertainment with a significant price tag. I am not sure how to quantify the level of happiness spread by such events and what should be the expected price tag given existing information available. It seems difficult to justify.

 

If memory serves, you are a season ticket holder while the most games I have watched at the 'dome in a year has been 4 I believe. I will spend money on decent tickets for my wife and I to watch one game live. Any more than that, and it cuts into our ability to save up for a new truck, an appliance that now has a lifetime expectancy of 5-6 years etc. You are likely in a different situation. Maybe you are financially better off, less dumb with your money than I am ("oooh! Canadian Tire is selling drills for 50% off!"), or you live in a condo and hockey is your thing. My point is that hockey tickets are worth the money for you, but often not for me. Now, how does that translate in the larger scheme of things? We could study the effects of the Vancouver games as a reasonably good comparable. All British Columbians paid into them. How does the average person living in the interior feel about spending x on the games? Would they be willing to spend that again, or would they want their money back? What about in the city proper? I don't think anyone can justify a new arena or the Olympics without this information, and it pisses me off when they use our municipal tax dollars to brainwash us into accepting them like we live in the Soviet Union or something.

 

At least the Flames are a permanent fixture in the city with some economic benefit (likely mitigated if the arena is too expensive). IF the city does host the Olympics, then I think it would be absolutely crazy not to clean up the creosote and go forward with CalgaryNext. King did a terrible job of selling the project at the worst time. If we win the bid, and the feds are in a more generous mood after screwing up Trans Mountain (and anything else Albertan), we need to seize the moment and get a few things done. A new arena might cost Calgarians little to nothing if other taxpayers are screwed out of a little money. But make no mistake about it, the Olympics are akin to public transportation. They are an economic loser.

 

Gotta run, Home Depot has a one day sale on shiny, ginormic, red Milwaukee tool chests with built in power bars! It matches my red Canadian Tire rack for tires.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, Cowtownguy said:

That makes sense.  I am not saying that the city is going to do so, I try to couch my ideas as "if the city does x, then ...". The Olympics and the NHL have much in common. They offer up unique social entertainment with a significant price tag. I am not sure how to quantify the level of happiness spread by such events and what should be the expected price tag given existing information available. It seems difficult to justify.

 

If memory serves, you are a season ticket holder while the most games I have watched at the 'dome in a year has been 4 I believe. I will spend money on decent tickets for my wife and I to watch one game live. Any more than that, and it cuts into our ability to save up for a new truck, an appliance that now has a lifetime expectancy of 5-6 years etc. You are likely in a different situation. Maybe you are financially better off, less dumb with your money than I am ("oooh! Canadian Tire is selling drills for 50% off!"), or you live in a condo and hockey is your thing. My point is that hockey tickets are worth the money for you, but often not for me. Now, how does that translate in the larger scheme of things? We could study the effects of the Vancouver games as a reasonably good comparable. All British Columbians paid into them. How does the average person living in the interior feel about spending x on the games? Would they be willing to spend that again, or would they want their money back? What about in the city proper? I don't think anyone can justify a new arena or the Olympics without this information, and it pisses me off when they use our municipal tax dollars to brainwash us into accepting them like we live in the Soviet Union or something.

 

At least the Flames are a permanent fixture in the city with some economic benefit (likely mitigated if the arena is too expensive). IF the city does host the Olympics, then I think it would be absolutely crazy not to clean up the creosote and go forward with CalgaryNext. King did a terrible job of selling the project at the worst time. If we win the bid, and the feds are in a more generous mood after screwing up Trans Mountain (and anything else Albertan), we need to seize the moment and get a few things done. A new arena might cost Calgarians little to nothing if other taxpayers are screwed out of a little money. But make no mistake about it, the Olympics are akin to public transportation. They are an economic loser.

 

Gotta run, Home Depot has a one day sale on shiny, ginormic, red Milwaukee tool chests with built in power bars! It matches my red Canadian Tire rack for tires.

 

I don't disagree with any of this. 

 

Im a huge proponent of your last point. For the most part all sports and sporting venues etc are economic losers to everyone but the owners and players. It's more of a morale/quality of life argument and obviously everyone values that differently. 

 

As as I said I'm more in the No camp towards a bid now then yes. I want to see more facts and figures before I'm committed to that position but right now I'm a no. I just like to discuss facts and not miss information. 

[Cowtownguy]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't disagree with any of this. 

 

Im a huge proponent of your last point. For the most part all sports and sporting venues etc are economic losers to everyone but the owners and players. It's more of a morale/quality of life argument and obviously everyone values that differently. 

 

As as I said I'm more in the No camp towards a bid now then yes. I want to see more facts and figures before I'm committed to that position but right now I'm a no. I just like to discuss facts and not miss information. 

So, you agree, I should buy the toolbox. I deserve it. 

 

I will be very interested to see just how detailed the information is on the Olympic bid. It is my understanding that the responsibilities carried by the sponsoring city are deliberately vague. Will the city get that information, and will we as taxpayers get it? I would like to know who will carry the responsibility to maintain facilities afterwards. I believe there were some issues with the roof on the Olympic oval.

[CheersMan]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Completely fair. Totally understand that some will never want the Olympics and that's very fair. not suggesting we all get behind an Olympic bid, but I do feel that in other ways their are a lot of conclusions being reached without facts (ie Hockey will be hosted in Edmonton, there will be no NHL arena etc etc). 

 

Did you see a new arena in the $5.23B draft?  I didn't, I did see a caveat for one though, which probably means adding a new arena would drive up the price another $1B to $6.23B.  We also have a mayor suggesting Olympic hockey could be played in the new arena 3 hrs north.  

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3747346/nenshi-says-new-arena-not-necessary-for-calgary-olympic-bid-cites-edmontons-rogers-place/ 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

Did you see a new arena in the $5.23B draft?  I didn't, I did see a caveat for one though, which probably means adding a new arena would drive up the price another $1B to $6.23B.  We also have a mayor suggesting Olympic hockey could be played in the new arena 3 hrs north.  

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3747346/nenshi-says-new-arena-not-necessary-for-calgary-olympic-bid-cites-edmontons-rogers-place/ 

That would be a major embarrassment. The biggest draw for the Olympics is ice hockey. Well not really but sellouts of 18000 for every event. Equivalent for summer would be 100m finals. Sure it's still Alberta but why bother. 

[robrob74]

36 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

Did you see a new arena in the $5.23B draft?  I didn't, I did see a caveat for one though, which probably means adding a new arena would drive up the price another $1B to $6.23B.  We also have a mayor suggesting Olympic hockey could be played in the new arena 3 hrs north.  

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3747346/nenshi-says-new-arena-not-necessary-for-calgary-olympic-bid-cites-edmontons-rogers-place/ 

 

A new arena in the bid might be a few hundred mil as maybe the city will put forward some as well an expectation that the team does as well. So I don’t think it would be a full billion from Olympic bid money.

 

one thing Francis mentioned on Friday was that that Olympic money will go into giving venues a facelift, money that would otherwise (could) not be there for it. Now it allows future development for people of all ages in sports.

 

if Calgary wants to be one of the homes to winter Olympic training facilities then there needs to be some money put into it. The Olympics is a good or bad excuse to do that.

[DirtyDeeds]

If the Bid for the Olympics is going to include places like Edmonton or Whistler then they should be in the process to bid too. They should also be ponying up some of the funding  as well.

 

If Calgary intends it to be the Calgary Olympics then the venues must be Calgary and immediate surrounding areas... Anything else is a big fat NO and lets stop this nonsense now.

[7wit]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

If the Bid for the Olympics is going to include places like Edmonton or Whistler then they should be in the process to bid too. They should also be ponying up some of the funding  as well.

 

If Calgary intends it to be the Calgary Olympics then the venues must be Calgary and immediate surrounding areas... Anything else is a big fat NO and lets stop this nonsense now.

In ‘88 some athletes and coaches were complaining that Nakiska and the Canmore Nordic Centre were too far away. I feel suggesting Edmonton for games is utter nonsense.

[cross16]

11 hours ago, CheersMan said:

 

Did you see a new arena in the $5.23B draft?  I didn't, I did see a caveat for one though, which probably means adding a new arena would drive up the price another $1B to $6.23B.  We also have a mayor suggesting Olympic hockey could be played in the new arena 3 hrs north.  

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3747346/nenshi-says-new-arena-not-necessary-for-calgary-olympic-bid-cites-edmontons-rogers-place/ 

 

No, thus why I mentioned how negotiations are happening. Lots can change and like i said Bidco isn't negotiation with the Flames so don't really have the ability to put that back on the city. Also worth noting that the proposal calls for Hockey to be played in Calgary and the mayor does not sit on the board of Bidco. 

 

A new arena should not he not be linked to the Olympics. They are 2 separate issues imo. If successfull the money the city gets should not be going to a new arena, there are other and more pressing needs but the two can remain separate. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

I just wish they wouuld both quit acting like Children and Start Negotiating

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

No, thus why I mentioned how negotiations are happening. Lots can change and like i said Bidco isn't negotiation with the Flames so don't really have the ability to put that back on the city. Also worth noting that the proposal calls for Hockey to be played in Calgary and the mayor does not sit on the board of Bidco. 

 

A new arena should not he not be linked to the Olympics. They are 2 separate issues imo. If successfull the money the city gets should not be going to a new arena, there are other and more pressing needs but the two can remain separate. 

They can be two separate issues, but as an opportunist, an Olympic bid would seem like a logical time to give the city some long term benefits.  We managed to get a beautiful Saddledome arena amongst other things in 1988. This go around our elected officials are willing to settle for a 5-6K arena then farm out the prestigious events to another city.   

I’m not going to pretend to understand fully all the intricacies involved in such a large scale budget for an Olympic bid or the required financing for the proposed CalgaryNext project.  Ooops, did I say CalgaryNext, I’m sorry, such a bad word to some on this forum.

CalgaryNext provided a solution for our local sporting and entertainment needs for decades to come (not to mention contamination clean up which opens up enormous land development).  I think most will agree with that. That is what we as a community should be striving for.

Now imagine for a second, just for a second that CalgaryNext is a reality.  The events center would be a decent platform for Olympic hockey and figure skating.  End goal is home for our Calgary Flames and world class entertainment venues.

The stadium portion of CalgaryNext proposed to seat up to 41,000 and was fully enclosed with a roof.  An opportunist would look at that football sized field and imagine a temporary modification to fit in 12 curling rinks, a short track oval, a regulation ice rink and more.  End goal is home for our Calgary Stampeders and world class facilities for amateur sports plus field house.

That is what an Olympic bid should look like for me and my city, it should benefit our community long term, not just lipstick on this or that.  Sending tens of thousands of people to other cities for them to profit on the prestigious events while we foot the bill seems ridiculous.

[ABC923]

I'm not a fan of Calgarynext.  Never have been, never will be.  Not in favour of the Olympics either.  But if we must have the Olympics, CalgaryNext makes a whole lot of sense.  The land is there to create the entire Olympic Village centered around the facility.  Are we really going to hold the opening ceremonies in an uncovered stadium again, let alone McMahon?  That would be embarrassing as a city, but I don't see anywhere in the budget for a major upgrade on that facility.  McMahon is fine for us local schmucks to go watch the stamps, but it's not a place I want to parade out for the world to see.  Calgary Next gets us the facility to hold the ceremonies in, and maybe could double as an event venue.  You could possibly build a new cross-country ski trail system along the river that ends in the stadium or something.   We would get the field house, upgrade the transit system over there, get affordable housing built (olympic village), and leave a real legacy.  The plan as is nets us upgrade on current facilities at only marginal savings over building something new.  If we are going to do it, if we really must, let's do it right.  

 

So here's my suggestion: Have the federal, provincial, and city governments split the land remediation 3 ways.  Get the Flames to pony up a bit more money (I think they were low-balling anyway, could probably get them to pitch in closer to 500 million total), and get the thing done right.  The city could wind up paying as little as 1/3 the cost for CalgaryNext if they played their cards right.