The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[Pyromancer]

It they wait too long the toxic vapers from the spreading oil will start affecting the people in Kensington.

Actually based on their behavior & that of the councillor for Ward 7 it likely already has.

[Carty]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Why has it toking so long already?

 

It's Nenshi...   He just wants to blow smoke...

[Heartbreaker]

On 4/29/2017 at 4:30 PM, Carty said:

 

It's Nenshi...   He just wants to blow smoke...

 

Nenshi is looking out for the city. Maybe the tax payers shouldn't bear the blunt exclusively, and costs should be spliff among would be developers, and potentially anyone that could be held responsible. 

 

Love. 

[Jeff2]

Error

[cross16]

Calgarians were polled on their support for a new arena

 

50% feel a new arena is needed

60% Support it but just so long as it doesn't affect their tax dollars. 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-councillors-plan-b-arena-calgarynext-survey-1.4110440

[Carty]

Francis gives his opinion, and actually manages to make some good points...   Also interesting to read the comments from Calgarian entrepreneur W. Brett Wilson who is 12% owner of the Preds...   http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/news/nashville-is-showing-calgary-how-to-support-hockey-and-revitalize-a-city-build-a-new-arena/ar-BBBmh8I?li=AA54y7&ocid=spartandhp

 

Nashville is showing Calgary how to support hockey and revitalize a city: Build a new arena

 

NASHVILLE, Tenn. — How is it a city like Nashville is showing Calgary the right way to support hockey?

 

How insulting to have an arena in a southern, non-traditional hockey market provide a better hockey experience for its fans and the city than a self-proclaimed hockey mecca.

 

Nashville’s Bridgestone Arena generates far more money and civic pride than the Saddledome. It attracts the world’s best entertainers, which is something the Dome can’t do anymore. It’s a place for a city to rally around, gather, celebrate and reinvigorate.

 

Take a good look-see at what’s going on in and around the Predators’ conference final series against the Anaheim Ducks — this is how it could be in Calgary. A city and an NHL hockey team working hand-in-hand to create infrastructure and experiences a world-class city such as Calgary should be privy to.

 

Nashville’s got it right. Calgary’s got, well, nothing close.

 

It’s not a knock on the Flames — it’s a shot at those in Calgary standing in the way of a new arena.

 

Twenty-five years ago, it was different: the Saddledome was adequate and Nashville didn’t have an arena at all.

 

In 1993, then-mayor Phil Bredesen decided Nashville needed a major facelift and would get one by way of a new arena. He didn’t have a NHL or NBA franchise as an anchor tenant, but he knew how vital is was to transforming his city. It turned out it kick-started everything.

 

“Back then, Broadway was unsafe,” Nashville Predators chief executive officer Sean Henry said of the city’s now-famous strip of Honky Tonk bars.

 

“You wouldn’t be caught dead there. The mayor had vision. He said ‘we’ll build an arena there’ and people mocked him. He said ‘it will anchor our entertainment district.’ Getting a team was secondary. People thought he was crazy.

 

“A good leader does what he thinks is right, not always just what is popular. It can’t get done with a political leader who is scared.”

 

And there it is, the crux of the problem facing Calgary. No wonder Bredesen had previously made hordes of money as an entrepreneur who went on to be Tennessee’s governor. Calgary has long lacked such vision.

 

Two years after building the downtown rink for a shockingly reasonable US$144 million ($218 million in today’s dollars), the NHL awarded Nashville a franchise, kick-starting the revitalization.

 

A modest rink of 17,113 seats for hockey, it has been constantly renovated and updated with state-of-the-art audio and video capabilities that help make it host to one of the NHL’s most spectacular game-night productions. They do that with the help of a $2 improvement tax on every ticket.

 

The Flames and the city of Calgary can learn from all of it.

 

“We enjoy the best public/private relationship in all of sports,” Henry said of the cooperation between the city, which owns the rink, and the team, which operates it as one of North America’s busiest venues.

 

“This is a case study in how you build an arena and everything else falls into place. They pay for themselves. For every dollar you spend on it, three times comes back.”

They don’t miss out on top concerts like Calgary does because the 37-year-old Saddledome is ill-designed, ill-equipped and out-dated.

 

Nashville is a must-stop for every major tour and is one of the top tourist attractions in the U.S. It’s one of the fastest growing cities in America; almost 100 people move to the city daily. Dozens of cranes dot the city’s growing skyline, with 39 significant building projects in the works, including plenty of hotels.

 

In a city with two main industries — health care and music — the main attraction is the few blocks around Bridgestone Arena, where modern-day patrons now don’t think twice about their safety while boot-scootin’ from bar to bar at night.

 

Behind the rink is the $620-million U.S. Music City (Convention) Centre added four years ago to build off the success of the district.

 

On Tuesday and Thursday this week, a wave of yellow-clad Predators fans swept into the area, tailgating, dancing and drinking before and after watching the team’s first

appearance in the Western Conference final. A who’s-who of the country music scene descended on the celebrations, as they have all year long. On Tuesday, Keith Urban sang the anthem before enjoying the game with Nicole Kidman and their kids. On Thursday, it was Kelly Clarkson.

 

Calgary entrepreneur and philanthropist W. Brett Wilson owns 12 per cent of the Predators and constantly marvels at how a city like Calgary can’t see the forest for the trees and enjoy similar benefits with a new rink that’s taking far too long to gain any traction.

 

He not only empathizes with his fellow NHL owners throughout their struggle to get a new arena built, but is also saddened as a Calgarian.

 

“I’m hugely disappointed in the city’s lack of leadership, whether it’s staff or politicians, in terms of saying ‘here’s what we need — let’s go negotiate it.’ As opposed to, ‘oh no, we’re not going to do that,'” said Wilson, who has long been critical of Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi’s apprehensive approach to supporting an arena that will clearly require tax dollars to build.

 

“It bugs me to no end that when a city is allocated a couple hundred million for a sports facility that an ownership group anywhere puts up of their own money. People keep forgetting that’s a donation — a donation to the infrastructure of the city. Sure, they’re going to want to mould the building in terms of access and rights to usage, but that’s all part of a contract.”

 

Instead of embracing the possibilities and working hard toward a solution, Nenshi initially showed outright disdain for the mere notion of spending a dime of taxpayers’ money on a new rink.

 

“I think the biggest problem has been this mindset — this perception that there has to be a win-lose negotiation,” said Wilson.

 

“On the part of whether it’s the mayor or some of the aldermen, the comment that, ‘I’m never going to give a dollar to the billionaires’ is just so adverse to the interest of the city.”

Correct.

 

While we are led to believe progress is being made between the Flames and the city behind closed doors the last handful of months, the dialogue over possibilities has yet to be healthy enough among constituents. It needs to have concrete numbers on how East Village’s Plan B, next to the current Dome, would be funded, so the public can have an informed discussion on its merits.

 

“But one of the core problems from my perspective is the sheer autonomy and power the Stampede board has,” Wilson said of the East Village concept.

“Based on rumour and innuendo, I would question the sanity of anyone trying to build a facility on Stampede land. That’s why you start to see talk of property swaps. I don’t have any inside knowledge from the team or the city, but you can see there’s movement.”

 

The latest threat is that unless a proposal between the city and the Flames is unveiled within the next handful of weeks, there would be no possible movement from city council on it until after the October municipal election.

 

Calgary’s leadership needs to boldly steer people in the right direction, which is to make sure a deal is concocted allowing Calgary to eventually enjoy the fruits of a new building the way Nashville has.

 

Or the Flames will eventually leave, providing economists with a case study on how to dismantle a city.

 

“The relationship the Predators as a club have with the city of Nashville is extraordinary, whether it be through funding, expansions, upgrades, renovations,” said Wilson.

“The benefit to the city has been immense. Why can’t we figure that out in Calgary?”

 

It’s a question Nenshi and his council needs to answer soon, before another wave of politicians are brought in to end this logjam.

[travel_dude]

Carty - I read this article last week and thought the exact same thing.  How amazing is the atmosphere in Nashville's Arena District.  Compare it to the "Ice Dirstrict" in EDM and it's like night and day.  The fans had no place to gather and watch, unless they wanted to pay $80 to stand in Ford Hall and watch TV.  No outdoor area.  Maybe the Wintergarden will address that, but the area is still a crap area.  And I fear that is how the one in Calgary will go, since the view is so short-sighted.  

[phoenix66]

I went to a game in Phoenix this year , same result and takeaway..  I especially like his statement that the money the team puts in is a donation to the city.

People need to realize this isn't about pumping money into a stadium for a Team.. this is development of the city and the local economy.

People who don't even go to games or concerts will indirectly benefit. The people who will be employed building it, the ones who will be employed by not only the stadium but by the businesses that go in around it

Edmonton and Nashville are both similar in that they transformed a basic slum area into an economic win.

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Carty - I read this article last week and thought the exact same thing.  How amazing is the atmosphere in Nashville's Arena District.  Compare it to the "Ice Dirstrict" in EDM and it's like night and day.  The fans had no place to gather and watch, unless they wanted to pay $80 to stand in Ford Hall and watch TV.  No outdoor area.  Maybe the Wintergarden will address that, but the area is still a crap area.  And I fear that is how the one in Calgary will go, since the view is so short-sighted.  

I think Calgary Next had that vision .. but by the city forcing them back to the Vic Park area I agree..  I cant help but think the objection to NEXT was more to do with the loss to the Stampede Board and Property values / Builders in Vic park than the made up cost objections.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Edmonton and Nashville are both similar in that they transformed a basic slum area into an economic win.

 

Sorry, I don't see the transformation.  Still homeless people living 1/2 a block away, sleeping on the sidewalk.  Big buildings around, not so much entertainment.  Parking is available in a muddy unpaved lot behind the arena.  City is going to pay a lot in leasing for their offices now.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sorry, I don't see the transformation.  Still homeless people living 1/2 a block away, sleeping on the sidewalk.  Big buildings around, not so much entertainment.  Parking is available in a muddy unpaved lot behind the arena.  City is going to pay a lot in leasing for their offices now.

admittedly I haven't seen it personally yet so I have no doubt you're correct .. but I am told its still a work in progress (the area)

But totally think this is where Calgary can score the win if Nenshi and the rest get their heads out of their A$$e$

[cross16]

Made some good points, except he really skipped over the fact that Nashville's arena cost 200 million to build (today's dollars) and the Flames asked the city for 4 times that amount. 

 

but Francis has always been a guy that thinks the city should basically do whatever the Flames want so i'll never see eye to eye on him with that one, same with Brett Wilson. The fact Wilson even argues that the City should foot 100% of the bill and the owners shouldn't have put in any money boiled my blood.

 

That being said the whole issue has been poorly handled and Wilson is right the public sparing comes across as a win-loss type argument when that really shouldn't be the focus. With a new council coming in October i'm really skeptical a debate is going to happen on this between now and then but I really hope i'm wrong. 

 

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I think Calgary Next had that vision .. but by the city forcing them back to the Vic Park area I agree..  I cant help but think the objection to NEXT was more to do with the loss to the Stampede Board and Property values / Builders in Vic park than the made up cost objections.

 

If the Stampede had their way the Flames and the arena would be off their land entirely as they don't want them there, they want the land for themselves. The only reason the Vic park option seems feasible is the City is willing to give the Dome land back to the Stampede. 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

Made some good points, except he really skipped over the fact that Nashville's arena cost 200 million to build (today's dollars) and the Flames asked the city for 4 times that amount. 

 

but Francis has always been a guy that thinks the city should basically do whatever the Flames want so i'll never see eye to eye on him with that one, same with Brett Wilson. The fact Wilson even argues that the City should foot 100% of the bill and the owners shouldn't have put in any money boiled my blood.

 

That being said the whole issue has been poorly handled and Wilson is right the public sparing comes across as a win-loss type argument when that really shouldn't be the focus. With a new council coming in October i'm really skeptical a debate is going to happen on this between now and then but I really hope i'm wrong. 

 

 

If the Stampede had their way the Flames and the arena would be off their land entirely as they don't want them there, they want the land for themselves. The only reason the Vic park option seems feasible is the City is willing to give the Dome land back to the Stampede. 

Oh. agreed.. and the Flames want to rid themselves of the Stampede Board .. the SB was ticked they lost the old deal , they still make $ off the stadium concessions so don't want to lose that .. but the city will bend over backwards to appease them.

 

he did say that (US$144 million ($218 million in today’s dollars) )---  and people gloss over the fact that its not just a stadium, its the football stadium as well as the Field House-- they asked the city for the same amount they'd already earmarked for the FieldHouse..  the city magnified it by including the cost of cleanup .. which they will have to do regardless of the project or not... Im surprised the "Green" loving party in power hasnt stepped in and demanded the city clean it up anyway ..

I was fully expecting a comeback of the city requesting to have the flames cover a portion of the cleanup costs , likely the Flames were expecting that to be the Negotiation point as well

There were so many negotiation points available (any offer always expects them and usually leaves room for them ), and the city(nenshi) went straight to "no"

Possible options :

stadium tax

ticket surcharges

split the cost of cleanup 

revenue sharing

interest loan

.

 

the list goes on..   Ken King is a smart guy , theres no way he said "final offer ".. he was expecting a negotiation that never happened

 

Personally .. i don't know why the Fire Park/ Max Bell area isn't in the conversation  ..  probably not enough surrounding development options 

[travel_dude]

Maybe King is part of the problem.  Was given the task of concentrating on the Arena project and he has butted heads so much that he may never be able to close a deal.  You get two guys like Nenshi and KK together and the egos/agendas collide.  Then you get Bettman coming in and adding his comments.  

 

 

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Oh. agreed.. and the Flames want to rid themselves of the Stampede Board .. the SB was ticked they lost the old deal , they still make $ off the stadium concessions so don't want to lose that .. but the city will bend over backwards to appease them.

 

he did say that (US$144 million ($218 million in today’s dollars) )---  and people gloss over the fact that its not just a stadium, its the football stadium as well as the Field House-- they asked the city for the same amount they'd already earmarked for the FieldHouse..  the city magnified it by including the cost of cleanup .. which they will have to do regardless of the project or not... Im surprised the "Green" loving party in power hasnt stepped in and demanded the city clean it up anyway ..

I was fully expecting a comeback of the city requesting to have the flames cover a portion of the cleanup costs , likely the Flames were expecting that to be the Negotiation point as well

There were so many negotiation points available (any offer always expects them and usually leaves room for them ), and the city(nenshi) went straight to "no"

Possible options :

stadium tax

ticket surcharges

split the cost of cleanup 

revenue sharing

interest loan

.

 

the list goes on..   Ken King is a smart guy , theres no way he said "final offer ".. he was expecting a negotiation that never happened

 

Personally .. i don't know why the Fire Park/ Max Bell area isn't in the conversation  ..  probably not enough surrounding development options 

 

Well to be fair the City hasn't even said no yet and actually recently agreed, via vote, to keep both options on the table. Nenshi is obviously against it publicly but remember he is only 1 vote on council so its not like he carries extra powers. Not to mention it was the City, not the Flames, that ordered and paid for a feasibility study to look further into CalgaryNext and that study deemed it not feasible. I get the public PR from the city has not been great, well just from Nenshi really, but behind the scenes, the City is doing far more on this than the Flames that people arn't giving them credit for. And yes while I know it was not jsut the arena, still asking for any level of goverement for 200 million and for over 1 billion is 2 separate universes. If the Flmaes had come to the city asking for 200 million to build an arena i'm willing to guarantee the deal would be done by now. 

 

Too far from downtown IMO. I think arena need to be as close to downtown as possible in order to minimize that traffic/parking concerns you have. Max Bell is too far from DT IMO and also has poor infrastructure in terms of vehicles going to and from. 

[phoenix66]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Well to be fair the City hasn't even said no yet and actually recently agreed, via vote, to keep both options on the table. Nenshi is obviously against it publicly but remember he is only 1 vote on council so its not like he carries extra powers. Not to mention it was the City, not the Flames, that ordered and paid for a feasibility study to look further into CalgaryNext and that study deemed it not feasible. I get the public PR from the city has not been great, well just from Nenshi really, but behind the scenes, the City is doing far more on this than the Flames that people arn't giving them credit for. And yes while I know it was not jsut the arena, still asking for any level of goverement for 200 million and for over 1 billion is 2 separate universes. If the Flmaes had come to the city asking for 200 million to build an arena i'm willing to guarantee the deal would be done by now. 

 

Too far from downtown IMO. I think arena need to be as close to downtown as possible in order to minimize that traffic/parking concerns you have. Max Bell is too far from DT IMO and also has poor infrastructure in terms of vehicles going to and from. 

all valid points.. and yes i should have been more clear ..Nenshi is the major issue. He lets his personal beliefs get in the way too much (Uber, stadium , etc)

Im sure you are right .. but I'd be willing to bet , if it all gets done separately (stadium , football stadium,  city builds a fieldhouse) the city will pay more , and the projects will cost more in the long run ..and sooner or later , somebody has to pay to clean that area up 

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

all valid points.. and yes i should have been more clear ..Nenshi is the major issue. He lets his personal beliefs get in the way too much (Uber, stadium , etc)

Im sure you are right .. but I'd be willing to bet , if it all gets done separately (stadium , football stadium,  city builds a fieldhouse) the city will pay more , and the projects will cost more in the long run ..and sooner or later , somebody has to pay to clean that area up 

 

I think they will too but I don't think it will be near as much as people think and I think the long term net benefit to the city will be greater. As i've said a few times I think the city is better off cleaning up WV, which all signs seem to indicate they will, and using the land for their own uses because it will net them more $ than CalgaryNext every would. 

 

so yes City will spend more, but gain much more benefit with that plan IMO at least. If it cost a little more, say 200million, to do it right in the short term but benefit the long term i'm ok with that as a taxpayer. 

[cross16]

Pretty interesting response to the Francis article by this National Post writer

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/father-raymond-j-de-souza-if-the-public-must-pay-for-nhl-rinks-they-should-get-tickets-for-free

[The_People1]

Does any NHL team own the building they play in?  If not, then why not?

[cross16]

17 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Does any NHL team own the building they play in?  If not, then why not?

 

Actually the Oilers and Flames are the only CDN teams that don't own their arena interestingly enough. From a league perspective I think its less than half but i'm not 100% sure. 

They don't tend to own them because of the cost required to build is too high. They wind up as the manager of the building which is really a win-win for them. They don't need to put up the capital required to build it, aren't usually responsible for upgrades but they get the lions share of the revenue it generates. 

[Carty]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Pretty interesting response to the Francis article by this National Post writer

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/father-raymond-j-de-souza-if-the-public-must-pay-for-nhl-rinks-they-should-get-tickets-for-free

 

By the same logic Father de Souza presents in his article, riders on tax payer funded buses and LRT's should get to ride for free, and that will never happen...   Father de Souza likes to give opinions on a lot of subjects, and he gets paid from a number of different sources to do it...   In the article he conveniently claims Calgary as his hometown, as he was born in Ontario and went through the school system in Calgary when his father moved there for work, and then he moved back to Ontario where he still lives...   He has a nice song and dance about how it is wrong to take money from the poor and give it to the rich, but maybe he should also remember the one about how people that live in glass houses should not be throwing stones...   I'll leave it at that...

 

Huge amounts of taxpayer dollars are spent on the construction and maintenance of public transportation...    My tax dollars go towards them, but I never use it...   I don't complain about it, as it is part of the cities infrastructure...   So is a new arena, and the same thing applies to it for taxpayers in general...   The city of Calgary is about to spend  close to 10 Billion freaking dollars on the Green Line alone, and half of that is additional cost and shortfall resulting from poor planning...   Another way of looking at it is the entire cost of CalgaryNEXT is only about 20% of the amount of the overages on the Green Line and only about 10% of it's total cost...   Everyone has their own opinion based on how they choose to look at it, and there are a number of possible angles...

 

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, Carty said:

 

, riders on tax payer funded buses and LRT's should get to ride for free, and that will never happen...   .

 

 

 

Well not quite. The money spent on transit, and the tax dollars thst fund it get put back in the city unlike the arena where the majority of profits will go to the owners. 

 

Im not saying I agree with the article but he has a point.

[Carty]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Well not quite. The money spent on transit, and the tax dollars thst fund it get put back in the city unlike the arena where the majority of profits will go to the owners. 

 

Im not saying I agree with the article but he has a point.

 

Just to clarify due to the way you quoted me without the "By the same logic Father de Souza presents in his article" to preface the quote, I'm not suggesting that public transit should be free, just equating it to what Father de Souza said about how there should be free tickets to a new arena...

 

Sure transit fares go back into city coffers, but it's a drop in the bucket and the cost for the system is still almost entirely subsidized by taxpayers, many of which will never use it...    It would take a long, long time to even put a small dent in the 10 billion cost of the Green Line by itself, and the same goes for the rest of the public transit system...   The arena and transit are just different parts of city infrastructure...  

 

Nenshi wants to make an Olympic bid as part of his 'legacy', and he's going to need a new arena,,,   Sure the Flames would of course use it, and also help pay for it, and it would also gets used for other cultural events...

[CheersMan]

12 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

all valid points.. and yes i should have been more clear ..Nenshi is the major issue. He lets his personal beliefs get in the way too much (Uber, stadium , etc)

Im sure you are right .. but I'd be willing to bet , if it all gets done separately (stadium , football stadium,  city builds a fieldhouse) the city will pay more , and the projects will cost more in the long run ..and sooner or later , somebody has to pay to clean that area up 

This is what some people continue to miss or ignore.  There will be no $200M gift from the Flames as that will be off the table.  There will be no savings from digging one hole instead of two.  There will be no savings from dropping a field house into a fully enclose but modified stadium structure.  The CalgaryNext proposal is probably $500M cheaper than building all facilities separately…….and the land gets cleaned up sooner rather than later.

 

12 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think they will too but I don't think it will be near as much as people think and I think the long term net benefit to the city will be greater. As i've said a few times I think the city is better off cleaning up WV, which all signs seem to indicate they will, and using the land for their own uses because it will net them more $ than CalgaryNext every would. 

 

so yes City will spend more, but gain much more benefit with that plan IMO at least. If it cost a little more, say 200million, to do it right in the short term but benefit the long term i'm ok with that as a taxpayer. 

With your endless wisdom, maybe you could explain how the city would make less money from having the foot print of CalgaryNext located in West Village versus having it located in Victoria Park?  We also need to stop pretending that the city will clean up the contamination on their own, if a $200M gift from the Flames won’t convince them, nothing will.  No mayor or politician would tackle the contamination on their own. 

If a state of the art entertainment/sporting complex used by ALL on the west side is such a terrible waste of land, maybe we should tear out the endless path-ways and sitting benches on Princes Island Park, making way skyscrapers too?  We could turn DT into a concrete jungle for those willing to pay the highest taxes, chasing the poor ones to the suburbs. 

10,000-15,000 people AT EVERY CalgaryNext venue would have the opportunity to stop for a moment (or longer) before going into the facilities to enjoy the scenery of the Bow River flow by.  Maybe a few hundred people decide to bike to an event along the Bow River, is that such a terrible thing for the residents of Calgary?   

[MAC331]

I think a Nashville type set up would be a great way to enhance all that the East End has going for it now. Pump some excitement back into the night life in this City.

West End has a lot of hair and additional costs related to it. There is no question the contamination has to dealt with by governments (taxpayers) no other way. If this site eventually did another under roof facility for Football and Soccer with an outside village atmosphere I think Calgary come out a winner.