The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, rickross said:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgarynext-the-west-village-project-is-dead-says-mayor-nenshi

 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/calgarynext-west-village-dead-saddledome-flames-ken-king-nenshi-1.4043862

 

Ken King insists the project is NOT dead, just "resting".  Claims it's still going through the process.

[rickross]

28 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/calgarynext-west-village-dead-saddledome-flames-ken-king-nenshi-1.4043862

 

Ken King insists the project is NOT dead, just "resting".  Claims it's still going through the process.

Oh I see Ken..in your mind the new arena is just taking a "nap"?..a little lie down session? lol He's delusional, all he's saying is there is NO plan B

[The_People1]

13 minutes ago, rickross said:

Oh I see Ken..in your mind the new arena is just taking a "nap"?..a little lie down session? lol He's delusional, all he's saying is there is NO plan B

 

One of them must be fake news.

[Carty]

26 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

One of them must be fake news.

 

Feaster is back?...   

[conundrumed]

With the opening of Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit next year, the 'dome will be the oldest arena in the league.

So if anyone's got an extra $1.5 to $2bil, kicking around, it's time to step up. lol

 

I liked the West end idea of downtown, it's pretty much a waste land and would attract a lot of investment.

But the Stampede grounds are great because the C-Train infrastructure is fine there.

Right downtown is always best for 20,000 people pumping dollars into a city, but there is nowhere decent in downtown Calgary. As much as there are blocks I'd gladly rip out lol.

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

Feaster is back?...   

We're getting the best arena not playing in the NHL.

[Carty]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

We're getting the best arena not playing in the NHL.

 

Don't get too excited...   The arena may only get used by the Flames a few times, and then they might find out that it is not up to the standards they are looking for...   Then the arena might end up getting traded to another city...

[rickross]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

We're getting the best arena not playing in the NHL.

The Cervenka Dome!

[conundrumed]

28 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

Don't get too excited...   The arena may only get used by the Flames a few times, and then they might find out that it is not up to the standards they are looking for...   Then the arena might end up getting traded to another city...

Maybe we can trade it for two arenas?? It's all about volume at this level, lol.

[DirtyDeeds]

3 hours ago, rickross said:

Oh I see Ken..in your mind the new arena is just taking a "nap"?..a little lie down session? lol He's delusional, all he's saying is there is NO plan B

On radio Ken said Next was on pause. The City asked him to put a proposal forth for Vic Park. City has not asked for anything to do with a stadium for the Stampeders other than suggest an upgrade.

[cross16]

I'm not voting for him again, but I think its as much time for a new President as it is a new Mayor. Disappointing there wasn't more discussion about the West village, but it was a pretty poor proposal put forward anyway, and with no plan B not sure how you can't categorize this as anything but an epic fail on the part of King. 

[CheersMan]

54 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm not voting for him again, but I think its as much time for a new President as it is a new Mayor. Disappointing there wasn't more discussion about the West village, but it was a pretty poor proposal put forward anyway, and with no plan B not sure how you can't categorize this as anything but an epic fail on the part of King. 

You keep saying this.  Maybe you could elaborate on why you think this was such a poor proposal and how KK failed? 

The Flames chose a parcel land in the vicinity of DT, a location which has proven league wide to be essential for success.  The parcel has limited development on it which would allow for rather easy surface demolition.  The sub-surface contamination has always been known, but at what cost is still somewhat unknown.  The Flames contacted other jurisdictions (Minnesota?) which had similar problems to research what they were dealing with and how it could be cleaned up.  The Flames then offered a vision to the people of Calgary on what they planned to build at proposed location.  The Flames extended their hand to the city saying “lets clean this up, develop the waste land and build a multi-facility building this city so very much needs”.  Flames offer to kick in $200M for a city owned building.  The proposed location also happens to have a new LRT system running straight through it which is capable of moving the expected crowds in and out. 

Again, please elaborate on where you feel the Flames made an epic proposal failure.

 

[cross16]

Took King over 5 years, since he first started discussing an arena project, to come up with something he could take to public. Was "really close" 3 years ago and then waits another 3 and sees Alberta dip into recession and then decides to unvail the proposal. (Don't try and argue with me that no one could predict the recession. It's Alberta it was going to happen). Why does it take over 5 years?

picks the contamantied land and didn't not even know how much it would cost to clean it up. Asked for what is looking to be over 800 million of public funds and asking the city to give up prime real estate thst they would make significantly more on if they just sold it on their own and it wouldn't cost them 800 million either. Then proposes to build a field house in a horrible location and ignored the previous recommendations by the city and othere who were consulted on the building of a field house in Calgary in an effort to gain more public funds. Not to mention they still don't even have the proposal of what the arena would look like, they only have the concept and they had no plan b. 

 

After 5 years all you can put forward is a concept that is asking for over 800 million in public funds, didn't know all the details when you announce it AND you had no plan B I consider thst pretty poor. Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of how Nenshi is handling this, but I'm much more upset with King.

[The_People1]

58 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

You keep saying this.  Maybe you could elaborate on why you think this was such a poor proposal and how KK failed? 

The Flames chose a parcel land in the vicinity of DT, a location which has proven league wide to be essential for success.  The parcel has limited development on it which would allow for rather easy surface demolition.  The sub-surface contamination has always been known, but at what cost is still somewhat unknown.  The Flames contacted other jurisdictions (Minnesota?) which had similar problems to research what they were dealing with and how it could be cleaned up.  The Flames then offered a vision to the people of Calgary on what they planned to build at proposed location.  The Flames extended their hand to the city saying “lets clean this up, develop the waste land and build a multi-facility building this city so very much needs”.  Flames offer to kick in $200M for a city owned building.  The proposed location also happens to have a new LRT system running straight through it which is capable of moving the expected crowds in and out. 

Again, please elaborate on where you feel the Flames made an epic proposal failure.

 

 

In my opinion, KK and the Flames should've ran the idea by Nenshi secretly/informally first to test the waters.  They should've just called up Nenshi and simply asked about the creosote clean-up in that area and get a feel for how real that will be.   Instead, they presented CalgaryNext to the public and made use of the creosote contamination as a scare tactic talking about potential seepage into the river to corner Nenshi into a rock and a hard place.  That likely didn't rub Nenshi the right way.

 

Nenshi came out so hard again the idea from the get go that it's very difficult to do a 180 and save face at any point of the process.

 

Half joking, the Flames should've wined and dined a few politicians from the beginning (Nenshi and Notley included) to help spin and market the project before making a public proposal.  Buyout local media to control the mainstream narrative.  Generate viral memes to get the social media crowd going for you.  Spend some money and flood the city with pro-CalgaryNext propaganda.  Or do like Daryl Katz, sell an unrealistic ultra-low cost proposal to the city and then hand the city a bill for an extra 40% halfway into pregnancy.  The concrete foundation is already poured.  Can't stop now.

 

I mean, something.  I would imagine in today's world, every sports team owner in every city has to do dirty work behind the scenes to jack public funds.  It's standard protocol.  Instead, KK and the Flames decide to do it honorably and openly. They were grossly optimistic.

[Cowtownguy]

17 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

You keep saying this.  Maybe you could elaborate on why you think this was such a poor proposal and how KK failed? 

The Flames chose a parcel land in the vicinity of DT, a location which has proven league wide to be essential for success.  The parcel has limited development on it which would allow for rather easy surface demolition.  The sub-surface contamination has always been known, but at what cost is still somewhat unknown.  The Flames contacted other jurisdictions (Minnesota?) which had similar problems to research what they were dealing with and how it could be cleaned up.  The Flames then offered a vision to the people of Calgary on what they planned to build at proposed location.  The Flames extended their hand to the city saying “lets clean this up, develop the waste land and build a multi-facility building this city so very much needs”.  Flames offer to kick in $200M for a city owned building.  The proposed location also happens to have a new LRT system running straight through it which is capable of moving the expected crowds in and out. 

Again, please elaborate on where you feel the Flames made an epic proposal failure.

 

There was no way that this was ever going to happen given an NDP provincial government, (no way, nada, never), Nenshi as Mayor, and the price of oil so low. Spending a billion of taxpayers' money on a recreational stadium, especially now, was an unrealistic expectation. This is toxic for any politician in hard times. Notice that few politicians from any political party are demanding that this be constructed with public money. After SkyDome (built in 1989), every politician is wary of building sports arenas and stadiums. In Detroit, they collected funds for the new arena for many years in advance. I am not sure why this was not started decades ago (i.e. a ticket surcharge, possibly an airport tax for the stadium etc.). The Flames also did not set a limit on, or responsibility for, cost overruns. Neither did Edmonton, which is why the taxpayers are responsible for that sinkhole.

 

If they wanted this, they should have issued the proposal when the PCs were in power and Redford was swimming in so much cash that she could build her own personal palace in Edmonton.

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

With the opening of Little Caesar's Arena in Detroit next year, the 'dome will be the oldest arena in the league.

So if anyone's got an extra $1.5 to $2bil, kicking around, it's time to step up. lol

 

I liked the West end idea of downtown, it's pretty much a waste land and would attract a lot of investment.

But the Stampede grounds are great because the C-Train infrastructure is fine there.

Right downtown is always best for 20,000 people pumping dollars into a city, but there is nowhere decent in downtown Calgary. As much as there are blocks I'd gladly rip out lol.

I think the West end would be the best but Plan B should be just an arena. I didn't ever think a mega-sports complex was required. I also don't think the Saddledome needs to come down, let the Stampede group continue to use it, keep the Hitmen playing out of there. Football and Soccer can find other locations. Football could or should stay up by the University IMO.

[CheersMan]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

Took King over 5 years, since he first started discussing an arena project, to come up with something he could take to public. Was "really close" 3 years ago and then waits another 3 and sees Alberta dip into recession and then decides to unvail the proposal. (Don't try and argue with me that no one could predict the recession. It's Alberta it was going to happen). Why does it take over 5 years?

picks the contamantied land and didn't not even know how much it would cost to clean it up. Asked for what is looking to be over 800 million of public funds and asking the city to give up prime real estate thst they would make significantly more on if they just sold it on their own and it wouldn't cost them 800 million either. Then proposes to build a field house in a horrible location and ignored the previous recommendations by the city and othere who were consulted on the building of a field house in Calgary in an effort to gain more public funds. Not to mention they still don't even have the proposal of what the arena would look like, they only have the concept and they had no plan b. 

 

After 5 years all you can put forward is a concept that is asking for over 800 million in public funds, didn't know all the details when you announce it AND you had no plan B I consider thst pretty poor. Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of how Nenshi is handling this, but I'm much more upset with King.

 

It took 5 years because that is how long Roger’s Place took to built.  KK was patient enough to wait his turn.  There is never a good time to ask for $800M, but to ask for it while the province was watching the EDM Roger’s Place fiasco would have been in very poor taste. 

Nobody can predict the highs and lows of the economy.  If you can, maybe you could tell us when the next ones will occur.  To start a project like this at the peak of a boom when unemployment is at its lowest, prices at the highest, with only unskilled labor available may not be the best idea.  Waiting for a recession when contractors are hungry with sharper pencils will only save the city money.

You call it contaminated, then you call in prime land, it can’t be both.  Difficult to call it prime land when you are unable to stick a shovel in it.  The Flames offered $200M, which would go along ways towards the cleanup.  Is there anybody else standing in line offering to clean it up?

Horrible location?  In what sense?  There are people with professions who know how to move traffic. 

This was a proposal at preferred location.  Plan B, C, D, E, F, G, H…………… were not offered.

Maybe KK needs to make a trip to Seattle to get dialog started and peoples hands out of their pockets?  No, he has too much class for that.   

 

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

In my opinion, KK and the Flames should've ran the idea by Nenshi secretly/informally first to test the waters.  They should've just called up Nenshi and simply asked about the creosote clean-up in that area and get a feel for how real that will be.   Instead, they presented CalgaryNext to the public and made use of the creosote contamination as a scare tactic talking about potential seepage into the river to corner Nenshi into a rock and a hard place.  That likely didn't rub Nenshi the right way.

 

Nenshi came out so hard again the idea from the get go that it's very difficult to do a 180 and save face at any point of the process.

 

Half joking, the Flames should've wined and dined a few politicians from the beginning (Nenshi and Notley included) to help spin and market the project before making a public proposal.  Buyout local media to control the mainstream narrative.  Generate viral memes to get the social media crowd going for you.  Spend some money and flood the city with pro-CalgaryNext propaganda.  Or do like Daryl Katz, sell an unrealistic ultra-low cost proposal to the city and then hand the city a bill for an extra 40% halfway into pregnancy.  The concrete foundation is already poured.  Can't stop now.

 

I mean, something.  I would imagine in today's world, every sports team owner in every city has to do dirty work behind the scenes to jack public funds.  It's standard protocol.  Instead, KK and the Flames decide to do it honorably and openly. They were grossly optimistic.

 

I have a hard time believing that Nenshi had no idea about what the Flames were proposing.  Maybe KK had hit a wall with Nenshi and was then forced to present it to the public?

[The_People1]

32 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

I have a hard time believing that Nenshi had no idea about what the Flames were proposing.  Maybe KK had hit a wall with Nenshi and was then forced to present it to the public?

 

Thus, either knowingly or unknowingly, failure to get Nenshi on board with the idea prior to public unveiling of the proposal is a huge failure on the part of the Flames.

 

"Forced to present it to the public" so in failure to get Nenshi on board, go with the intention to undermine him and city council?  Fight him in public?  Okay but then fight one of North America's most successful and popular mayors in history without a trace of smear campaign or social media warfare?  That's the $800-mil plan?

 

In hindsight, what were they thinking?

[rickross]

I think this new arena idea is a moot point, there aren't even any solid proposals on the table. We're atleast 5 years away from seeing anything come to fruition. Get used to the Dome for the foreseeable future...its old but it's still a classic. Eventually the Flames will have the newest arena in sports until then let's enjoy some playoff runs in the only building that brought us the Cup

[CheersMan]

24 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Thus, either knowingly or unknowingly, failure to get Nenshi on board with the idea prior to public unveiling of the proposal is a huge failure on the part of the Flames.

 

"Forced to present it to the public" so in failure to get Nenshi on board, go with the intention to undermine him and city council?  Fight him in public?  Okay but then fight one of North America's most successful and popular mayors in history without a trace of smear campaign or social media warfare?  That's the $800-mil plan?

 

In hindsight, what were they thinking?

 

As Cross mentioned, 5 years has come and gone.  With or without the mayor’s approval the Flames have decided it’s time to get off the pot.  Mayor's come and go, professional sporting franchises usually don’t.  Some mayor's appreciate what sports bring to a community, it appears other mayors don’t care.

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

As Cross mentioned, 5 years has come and gone.  With or without the mayor’s approval the Flames have decided it’s time to get off the pot.  Mayor's come and go, professional sporting franchises usually don’t.  Some mayor's appreciate what sports bring to a community, it appears other mayors don’t care.

These discussions will continue, this is by no means over with between the parties. The West end needs to be cleaned up environmentally and the city needs a new Arena. It takes a good 3 years to build such a facility and construction people could use the work. Scale it down to an Arena and Entertainment venue should be the direction.

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

As Cross mentioned, 5 years has come and gone.  With or without the mayor’s approval the Flames have decided it’s time to get off the pot.  Mayor's come and go, professional sporting franchises usually don’t.  Some mayor's appreciate what sports bring to a community, it appears other mayors don’t care.

 

I find it odd that the mayor would be saying the old proposal was dead.  He is not the council, so he only has voting rights in the event of a tie, if I remember my civics correctly.  Councils can be swayed by mayors, for sure.  

 

Maybe the CGY proposal should have included building an office tower that they could lease a good portion of floors to the city.

[The_People1]

13 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

As Cross mentioned, 5 years has come and gone.  With or without the mayor’s approval the Flames have decided it’s time to get off the pot.  Mayor's come and go, professional sporting franchises usually don’t.  Some mayor's appreciate what sports bring to a community, it appears other mayors don’t care.

 

Which is okay but where is the smear campaign to make Nenshi out to be the bad guy?  Where is the scare of creosote seepage into the Bow River?  Where is the bought out local media pumping this scare tactic into the public to sway public opinion?

 

All of these are necessary if they go the route of fighting the mayor in public but they are absent.  All signs point to Nenshi doing very well and enjoying high public approval and will likely win another term.  The Flames appear to be making no effort to change this course of future events.

 

If Nenshi says 'no' to the proposal, that sways public opinion to the 'no' side because Calgarians trust him.  Had he said "we love the general concept but need to find the budget to do so.  We would enthusiastically work with the Flames to make this project a reality"  wow what a different tone.

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

It took 5 years because that is how long Roger’s Place took to built.  KK was patient enough to wait his turn.  There is never a good time to ask for $800M, but to ask for it while the province was watching the EDM Roger’s Place fiasco would have been in very poor taste. 

 

Why is it in poor taste? The province did not fund Rogers Arena, Edmonton City Council foot the bill on that one. Negotiations were between Katz and the City of Edmonton, province as not involved. 

The wait is more likely because they bought the Stamps and went back to the drawing board, but again Edm had a concept for a new area I think within a year of Katz buying the Oilers. Should not have taken King and co over 3/4 years to introduce a concept, and what was happening in Edm should have had no baring on what they were doing. 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

Nobody can predict the highs and lows of the economy.  If you can, maybe you could tell us when the next ones will occur.  To start a project like this at the peak of a boom when unemployment is at its lowest, prices at the highest, with only unskilled labor available may not be the best idea.  Waiting for a recession when contractors are hungry with sharper pencils will only save the city money.

 

YOu can't predict the highs and the lows but you can predict that Alberta is a boom bust economy and that commodities run in cycles. There was no way OIl was staying at over $100/barrell. I talked to multiple people in o/G that new eventually the price would correct, that's just the nature of a commodity. 

when you are asking for public funds its much better to build when they actually have them. Governements get the most stressed in a downturn so while yes you can save some, but not alot, of money building in a downturn, the likelihood you will get public funds decreases. That was key to this project, not saving money on the construction of it. 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

You call it contaminated, then you call in prime land, it can’t be both.  Difficult to call it prime land when you are unable to stick a shovel in it.  The Flames offered $200M, which would go along ways towards the cleanup.  Is there anybody else standing in line offering to clean it up?

 

 

It is prime land once the contaminated land is cleaned up, which the Flames are not paying for by the way and yes Council has said they will be cleaning the land up irregardless of Calgary Next. 200million is less than 20% of the cost of this project so sorry i'm not giving the Flames credit for offering $200 million and it would not go very far at all in cleaning up the land. 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

Horrible location?  In what sense?  There are people with professions who know how to move traffic. 

 

 

The purpose of a field house is the further training and developing of amateur athletes. That training is currently done at the U of C and the support facilities for that are at the U of C so a proper field house needs to be at U of C as well. A downtown location makes very little sense for a fieldhouse

 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

 

This was a proposal at preferred location.  Plan B, C, D, E, F, G, H…………… were not offered.

Sure and it is fine that they only went public with their preferred proposal but to have no ideas or plan B is a pretty big fail in my books when it comes to planning. And properly executed business plan should have a backup. 

[Cowtownguy]

Let us not forget that it is not just council that makes this decision. They have a committee made up of members of the community including business professionals, that have made suggestions to council. I believe that they concluded the location was deficient because the cost of the cleanup was unclear, as was the responsibility for the cost. The Flames needed to either approach council and gain their interest in advance, or engage in the strong arm tactics that Peeps suggested.