The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Frustrated by bureaucracy? I'm guessing could be one cause.

The said, King is right. Victoria Park is a terrible plan.

The CSEC is right with their location, just overshooting an all-in-one plan.

Build your arena, do some extraneous development of restaurants and hotels, if it turns into a football/field house down the road great.

One burning question.

Do we have to host a multi-bilion dollar Olympics every time our own home city's most popular team needs a new arena?

 

But you're right cross, KK, that statement was a trainwreck. Very apparent when the 1st question was, "why don't the billionaires and millionaires just pay for it"?

This is definitely political now. It's definitely off the tracks.

2nd burning question. Why is city council dictating location? East side of downtown Calgary? Really?

That's a bigger seedy area than even the west side of downtown Calgary, I've been around.

Our team needs a new arena. Incompetence ensues from all involved is what it boils down to for me.

Pump you're chests out boys, you're both, and likely all, too enamoured with yourselves.

Again, this isn't remotely considered an investment, nor does it seem any attempt is being made to make it one.

 

What a mess.  Not you.  The situation.  Instead of talking hockey, we are drawn back into a debate about who pays for something that should benefit both parties.

I hated the look of the Next proposal.  See-thru roofs? Come on.  I liked the idea of building an arena away from the current location.  Not sure how it's an improvement to move it a few blocks away.  What does the design look like?  Some random cube?  The dome is iconic.  Should be something unique if you want to sell the idea in the form of an Olympic bid.  Or at least have a design that is modern enough that there is easy access to the cheap seats (ARI has escalators) and enough bathrooms that you don't need to wear depends.  Maybe building a rink near a Stampede park doesn't make a lot of sense.  

 

Pretty bad that the rink was 1/2 submerged in dirty water only a few years ago and the push to get it built is still mired in mud.  What should have been resolved years ago somehow had to wait till after the election.  It was put off to prevent it from being a reason to vote for/vote against the current council.  Now it's become part of the campaign.

I would hate for Neshi to win just because the public turned sour with King.  Then again Nenshi is only part of the council that sat on this.  

 

I didn't mean to post about the topic, but I really don't like the situation.  It would be nice to see a game in a shiny new arena.  Nobody wants to see an increase in taxes, but they will happen anyway.  Building things employ people.  Employed people spend money.  Employed people pay taxes.  I'm not going to support ether side in this.  Both are hypocritical.      

[jjgallow]

To bring a hockey component into this, rightly or wrongly I feel like we witnessed a half-baked rebuild that was rushed to give the Flames a stronger fan base heading into election season.   Had the Flames followed through fully with the rebuild I think we'd be one season a way from having one of the top 3 teams in the NHL.   And that's extremely unlikely now.

 

I like hockey.

 

There is very little I need or love about the NHL, or Bettman, other than its association to hockey.   As for the Flames ownership, it needs some new life breathed into it.   It suffers from the same old school Oil business mentallity that Calgary needs to diversify from.    

 

I will continue to watch, play, and be a fan of hockey regardless of what happens with the NHL, with the Flames, or with the Flames ownership, or our politicians.      

 

Although if I had my druthers, I would certainly not miss the current Flames ownership if they decided to sell their shares.  And Nenshi?  I actually think he's doing the right thing here.    Especially with an Olympics bid coming.   But I don't consider him irreplaceable either.

 

Not stressed.   Hockey isn't going anywhere in my life, and neither are the great people who live here.

[rickross]

Finally some action. I think this public posturing is exactly what's needed to advance the negotiation process. As it stands I'm with the City's stance as the Flames owners greed has apparently come to light. It appears the Flames are overstating their position in the community. Yes, they are a big part of Calgary's social and cultural make up, and they do a lot charitable philanthropy which is great! However, just like Ken King said they are in the business of sports and entertainment, and successful businesses don't do anything for free. They've raised millions in charitable donations and in the same breath, saved millions off corporate tax breaks by doing so.

 

CSEC doesn't create the culture, they simply facilitate it. Without us, the Saddledome is nothing more than a building with a roof shaped like saddle. Put fans in it and they turn the Dome into a Home, "The Home of The Calgary Flames".  The fans and citizens of this city are the ones who drive the culture and social energy. This is where I believe the Flames owners are over stepping their boundaries. What created the C of Red and The Red Mile can't be written up in some tidy business plan, that is tied directly to the passion of the fans and it is priceless. The Flames know that. Even this very message board would just be an empty URL if not for us. 

 

These antics should act as catalysts to drive this arena deal closer to the vision that benefits all parties because quite frankly they need each other. 

[MAC331]

7 hours ago, rickross said:

Finally some action. I think this public posturing is exactly what's needed to advance the negotiation process. As it stands I'm with the City's stance as the Flames owners greed has apparently come to light. It appears the Flames are overstating their position in the community. Yes, they are a big part of Calgary's social and cultural make up, and they do a lot charitable philanthropy which is great! However, just like Ken King said they are in the business of sports and entertainment, and successful businesses don't do anything for free. They've raised millions in charitable donations and in the same breath, saved millions off corporate tax breaks by doing so.

 

CSEC doesn't create the culture, they simply facilitate it. Without us, the Saddledome is nothing more than a building with a roof shaped like saddle. Put fans in it and they turn the Dome into a Home, "The Home of The Calgary Flames".  The fans and citizens of this city are the ones who drive the culture and social energy. This is where I believe the Flames owners are over stepping their boundaries. What created the C of Red and The Red Mile can't be written up in some tidy business plan, that is tied directly to the passion of the fans and it is priceless. The Flames know that. Even this very message board would just be an empty URL if not for us. 

 

These antics should act as catalysts to drive this arena deal closer to the vision that benefits all parties because quite frankly they need each other. 

No team = No fans required. This has become nothing more than two big egos defending their positions publicly now that an election is coming. King no longer wants to deal with Nenshi on this deal it is that simple.

[Cowtownguy]

A public facility is not strictly defined as something that absolutely everyone uses. It is broadly defined as something made available to most everyone in the interests of the public. It was always obvious that both the current Mayor and the Premier are explicitly in favour of private, individual money going to fund public interests, not public money going to fund private interests. I personally do not use public transit, libraries, or museums, but it is inescapable that these are clearly public facilities created in the interests of the collective even if some people disagree with particular expenditures. By contrast, if the City of Calgary gave $185 million to one artist for a painting to be kept for 35 years, then the public would rightfully be outraged. This is what the Flames are demanding, and they are doing a remarkably poor job of selling this unpalatable request at the worst possible time.

 

It is obvious that the Flames are demanding public money largely for their own private interests because they will dictate access to this new facility. This fact is not even in dispute. If people were allowed to watch any game they wanted to, perhaps even with a small user fee attached to it, then the Flames could rightfully make the argument that this expenditure is analogous to public expenditures on art, water, and garbage. Ken King admitted as much when he maintained that ticket surcharges are really not paid for by fans even though they pay for the tickets. His argument was basically that the Flames charge as much as the market will bare. Charging as much as the market will bare is not equivalent to say, a $10.00 public user fee. There is nothing inconsistent with acknowledging that professional ice hockey teams are private entities with private interests that have some positive public impact, like musicians or celebrities. They are certainly not a public service and there is good reason not to be funded as such.

 

Demanding hundreds of millions of public tax dollars for private interests is not insignificant by any means. Doing so when unemployment in the city is at 10% and budgets are seriously strained makes the request more distasteful. It becomes egregious when it is clear that the Flames have not generated a solid plan to begin with. This was evident with the underwhelming unveiling of CalgaryNext. It hardly looked planned at all. Not making your financial request known until after publicly stating that you are giving up pursuing a new arena is bizarre and just not credible. Would anyone here tell the bank that you no longer want your small business loan and then offer the financials afterwards? Why is King even bothering to offer the plan next week when they have supposedly given up working with the city? Disregarding the importance of public funds from the city because taxes will ultimately be collected from the building over the long term was offensive, as was stating that ticket surcharges are really Flames’ revenue to begin with. If the surcharge is on my credit card, then it is my money as a facility user. 

 

I acknowledge that there are many people who want a new arena and are willing to part with public dollars to achieve that goal. I am not yet convinced, but I know some people feel that way. They love ice hockey as much or more than I do. Can anyone honestly tell me, however, that they were against the idea, or even on the fence about it, and are now solidly in favour of it after listening to King speak? Was anyone really moved by Gary Bettman’s involvement in the whole matter? I rarely ascribe to conspiracy (and do not do so now) what can be more parsimoniously explained by incompetence, but this appears less like a plan to get a new arena as it is a plan to move the team. I said at the beginning that the Flames should have hired a public relations firm to help them with this and nothing has dissuaded me from that point of view.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

A public facility is not strictly defined as something that absolutely everyone uses. It is broadly defined as something made available to most everyone in the interests of the public. It was always obvious that both the current Mayor and the Premier are explicitly in favour of private, individual money going to fund public interests, not public money going to fund private interests. I personally do not use public transit, libraries, or museums, but it is inescapable that these are clearly public facilities created in the interests of the collective even if some people disagree with particular expenditures. By contrast, if the City of Calgary gave $185 million to one artist for a painting to be kept for 35 years, then the public would rightfully be outraged. This is what the Flames are demanding, and they are doing a remarkably poor job of selling this unpalatable request at the worst possible time.

 

It is obvious that the Flames are demanding public money largely for their own private interests because they will dictate access to this new facility. This fact is not even in dispute. If people were allowed to watch any game they wanted to, perhaps even with a small user fee attached to it, then the Flames could rightfully make the argument that this expenditure is analogous to public expenditures on art, water, and garbage. Ken King admitted as much when he maintained that ticket surcharges are really not paid for by fans even though they pay for the tickets. His argument was basically that the Flames charge as much as the market will bare. Charging as much as the market will bare is not equivalent to say, a $10.00 public user fee. There is nothing inconsistent with acknowledging that professional ice hockey teams are private entities with private interests that have some positive public impact, like musicians or celebrities. They are certainly not a public service and there is good reason not to be funded as such.

 

Demanding hundreds of millions of public tax dollars for private interests is not insignificant by any means. Doing so when unemployment in the city is at 10% and budgets are seriously strained makes the request more distasteful. It becomes egregious when it is clear that the Flames have not generated a solid plan to begin with. This was evident with the underwhelming unveiling of CalgaryNext. It hardly looked planned at all. Not making your financial request known until after publicly stating that you are giving up pursuing a new arena is bizarre and just not credible. Would anyone here tell the bank that you no longer want your small business loan and then offer the financials afterwards? Why is King even bothering to offer the plan next week when they have supposedly given up working with the city? Disregarding the importance of public funds from the city because taxes will ultimately be collected from the building over the long term was offensive, as was stating that ticket surcharges are really Flames’ revenue to begin with. If the surcharge is on my credit card, then it is my money as a facility user. 

 

I acknowledge that there are many people who want a new arena and are willing to part with public dollars to achieve that goal. I am not yet convinced, but I know some people feel that way. They love ice hockey as much or more than I do. Can anyone honestly tell me, however, that they were against the idea, or even on the fence about it, and are now solidly in favour of it after listening to King speak? Was anyone really moved by Gary Bettman’s involvement in the whole matter? I rarely ascribe to conspiracy (and do not do so now) what can be more parsimoniously explained by incompetence, but this appears less like a plan to get a new arena as it is a plan to move the team. I said at the beginning that the Flames should have hired a public relations firm to help them with this and nothing has dissuaded me from that point of view.

There is no conspiracy to move this team however the message is that it is an option. I'm not sure either side did their homework on the public opinion side or even cared. The only money the City has is tax money and revenues from facilities, all of which are down significantly so I can understand the City stalling or playing hardball about their lack of participation %. They need a better cost sharing formula that can be addressed by projected revenues, building the building is only part of the picture.

[conundrumed]

How much money has the city poured into the East Village and the National Music Center with such a small area by comparison?

Can we rename the Flames and Stamps as "the Arts"?

Would that help?

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How much money has the city poured into the East Village and the National Music Center with such a small area by comparison?

Can we rename the Flames and Stamps as "the Arts"?

Would that help?

 

Since the dome can get as quiet as a library at times, perhaps they could pour in 250m into an arena that has an attached library.  I wonder how many Calgarians use a library in the space of a year?

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

How much money has the city poured into the East Village and the National Music Center with such a small area by comparison?

Can we rename the Flames and Stamps as "the Arts"?

Would that help?

Absolutely correct about those facilities.  The only reason they got public money is because they are money losers with nobody to pressure for funding.  Are they for the public?  Yes, but I bet one year's worth of Dome usage during the Stampede has more public visitors than these will in their lifetimes.  

[conundrumed]

We are going to have to put a billion easy, towards Olympic development. Isn't it time to rip out everything from the greyhound to beyond the pumphouse?

Heck, I don't care if it's made park land.

Right now it's disaster relief. It's a stain area, and it's right there. Lest we're blind.

How easy is it to put the sports side on the west and arts on the east? The 2 mix like oil and water for god sakes.

[Flyerfan52]

On a lighter note I was reading a farce article (via a link but think the source was something like beavernews) in which the Gnome threatens to move the Canucks to Calgary if council doesn't come across with the $s.

I went back through my f/book but couldn't find it.

[Carty]

10 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

On a lighter note I was reading a farce article (via a link but think the source was something like beavernews) in which the Gnome threatens to move the Canucks to Calgary if council doesn't come across with the $s.

I went back through my f/book but couldn't find it.

 

Good find FF52, you made me laugh...      https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/09/nhl-threatens-move-canucks-calgary-city-doesnt-build-new-stadium/

 

But maybe we should just exile Nenshi, King and Bettman to Vancouver instead..   

[Cowtownguy]

On September 16, 2017 at 0:23 PM, conundrumed said:

How much money has the city poured into the East Village and the National Music Center with such a small area by comparison?

Can we rename the Flames and Stamps as "the Arts"?

Would that help?

Sounds good to me, but I am not sure that the Flames would be satisfied earning a profit comparable to public venues.

 

If Nenshi were to turn around and say that the city will pay a much larger share for the facility, or even go with CalgaryNext as is, does he gain votes or lose votes? I suspect that he risks losing the election which is not even on his mind right now. So, I don't understand this whole election strategy.

 

I would offer far more support to the Canucks relocating to Calgary than having the Prince of Darkness ever step foot in this city again.

 

ETA: The Nenshi hypothetical is truly a hypothetical. He is just one member of Council. He does not have the power to offer the Flames a deal alone.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, Carty said:

 

Good find FF52, you made me laugh...      https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/09/nhl-threatens-move-canucks-calgary-city-doesnt-build-new-stadium/

 

But maybe we should just exile Nenshi, King and Bettman to Vancouver instead..   

I got a out of it as well. It was probably my cousin out in Leaf land that put it up but not positive.

 

Put those 3 is a cage match with McGratton as ref. After everyone beats the Gnome to a pulp let Nenshi & King battle to the end. Who wins doesn't matter but it would be fun to watch & ticket sales/tv rights go to the arena fund. Fans like me across Canada & elsewhere (a shout out to Germany) would probably watch on PPV.

 

The judges (all Calgary residents & Flames fans) have a sober discussion weighing benifits vs. their tax bill (the drinks come later) to decide location, $s alloted & the % split between the city & team as they as most effected.

I really can't give an opinion as it's not my taxes involved.

*********************************************************************************

I googled who is running for mayor & council but really can't comment on them as I don't live there.

I did look @ wards 1 & 2 to see that both have gals that could likely be hostesses on the bandwagon running. Something for DD to look into.

[Cowtownguy]

4 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I got a out of it as well. It was probably my cousin out in Leaf land that put it up but not positive.

 

Put those 3 is a cage match with McGratton as ref. After everyone beats the Gnome to a pulp let Nenshi & King battle to the end. Who wins doesn't matter but it would be fun to watch & ticket sales/tv rights go to the arena fund. Fans like me across Canada & elsewhere (a shout out to Germany) would probably watch on PPV.

 

The judges (all Calgary residents & Flames fans) have a sober discussion weighing benifits vs. their tax bill (the drinks come later) to decide location, $s alloted & the % split between the city & team as they as most effected.

I really can't give an opinion as it's not my taxes involved.

*********************************************************************************

I googled who is running for mayor & council but really can't comment on them as I don't live there.

I did look @ wards 1 & 2 to see that both have gals that could likely be hostesses on the bandwagon running. Something for DD to look into.

I like the idea Vince McMahon! You could pay for the new arena with that money alone. The Prince of Darkness would inevitably win though because he would have access to a knife/poison/sniper etc. No way he goes in there honest like. 

[DirtyDeeds]

8 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I got a out of it as well. It was probably my cousin out in Leaf land that put it up but not positive.

 

Put those 3 is a cage match with McGratton as ref. After everyone beats the Gnome to a pulp let Nenshi & King battle to the end. Who wins doesn't matter but it would be fun to watch & ticket sales/tv rights go to the arena fund. Fans like me across Canada & elsewhere (a shout out to Germany) would probably watch on PPV.

 

The judges (all Calgary residents & Flames fans) have a sober discussion weighing benifits vs. their tax bill (the drinks come later) to decide location, $s alloted & the % split between the city & team as they as most effected.

I really can't give an opinion as it's not my taxes involved.

*********************************************************************************

I googled who is running for mayor & council but really can't comment on them as I don't live there.

I did look @ wards 1 & 2 to see that both have gals that could likely be hostesses on the bandwagon running. Something for DD to look into.

We need to get them i to bikini's if they are interested in our bandwagon staff. I was met with scorn when i tried to change them from bikini babes to just bandwagon babes. Seems i did not acknowledge to popular concensus on that.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

We need to get them i to bikini's if they are interested in our bandwagon staff. I was met with scorn when i tried to change them from bikini babes to just bandwagon babes. Seems i did not acknowledge to popular concensus on that.

 

How's the reno on the bandwagon going?  Probably have some ex-Nucks posing as Flames fans so they can cheer for a team.  I hope we don't have to drag around that trailer again.  Perhaps we can park it next to Rogers in EDM and just leave it there.  People will probably pay big bucks to live close by.

[DirtyDeeds]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

How's the reno on the bandwagon going?  Probably have some ex-Nucks posing as Flames fans so they can cheer for a team.  I hope we don't have to drag around that trailer again.  Perhaps we can park it next to Rogers in EDM and just leave it there.  People will probably pay big bucks to live close by.

There is no parking near Rogers. I did park the trailet inside the old Nassau Colleseum where no one will find it. I think a heard a couple of muffled Canuck fans still inside but left it locked without investigation. 

[Flyerfan52]

9 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

There is no parking near Rogers. I did park the trailet inside the old Nassau Colleseum where no one will find it. I think a heard a couple of muffled Canuck fans still inside but left it locked without investigation. 

I remember leaving a trailer full on Canuckleheads in the parking lot in Phoenix a few years back.

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

There is no parking near Rogers. I did park the trailet inside the old Nassau Colleseum where no one will find it. I think a heard a couple of muffled Canuck fans still inside but left it locked without investigation. 

I was thinking that if we just left it there, it would eventually get towed away.  

[Mike_Oxlong]

So many people demonizing the Flames ownership group for walking away from discussions with the city but few people seem to have noted another group that did so just a day later. Arts group walks away from city negotiations to transform old planetarium. 

 

By no means am I suggesting that the circumstances are identical but I find it odd that two groups have broken off talks with the city within a day of each other. Nenshi has proven himself to be a divisive, arrogant prima donna, while accomplishing very little of note while in office. He launched his campaign with a grand vision of the East Village to which the Flames' responded; "not so fast." Suddenly the contemporary arts group also breaks off talks. What's really going on here and with the city? Is this Nenshi's directive to dig in his heels and pout until he gets his way as he did with the city's building industry? He certainly has a history of picking fights and pissing industries off.

 

Certainly there's some middle ground to be reached and most of what I'm reading echoes what's going on in society at large nowadays, in that everyone loves to take extreme viewpoints. On one hand you have a vocal group claiming the Flames are trying to bilk Calgarians and that the owners should build it with their own money. 

 

The city has claimed that they're willing to pay a third of the cost but misrepresents the facts. They're not paying an third; they're fronting a third. The Flames claim that they'd prefer to have the facility be owned by the city (a la the Saddledome) and pay rent as the operators. Here's where it's blatantly obvious a middle ground must be reached. The problem with the city's proposal is that the Flames not only ultimately pay 100% of the cost; they also pay a lot of property tax in addition to a ticket surcharge pushing their investment to well over 100%. The problem with the Flames' proposal is that the city recoups their investment but loses out on a significant revenue source as regards the property tax.

 

So where's the middle ground? I'm not opposed to the City truly paying for a third of the cost as there's significant public benefit to the new arena. The Flames should bear a third of the cost as they're the private industry that the facility most directly benefits. Lastly, there should be a user pay component which is already in the mix in the form of the ticket surcharge. Finally, the Flames should not get a free pass on property tax. Thus we have a middle ground.

 

Can anyone propose a more fair way to divvy the costs? I'm not claiming to have the answer or even the best solution.

[DirtyDeeds]

12 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I remember leaving a trailer full on Canuckleheads in the parking lot in Phoenix a few years back.

Same trailer.. who knows maybe same Nuck Fans.. lol

[DirtyDeeds]

Kansis City deemed an arena important enough to the city, that they built one with no major basketball or nhl tenant. It was built not to attract a team but rather give music and arts a place or a venue.

 

Here we get people that dont want to pay any portion from taxpayers. People here are blind to the surrounding benefits that an arena brings to a city. When put into the proper location and surrounded by business that compliments it, then it is something a city should have before it can call itself world class.

Dome was that at one time but not now.

 

In all the arena talk most have lost sight of our need for an upgrade or new stadium for McMahon Stadium and even more so a fieldhouse. Edmonton has 3 fieldhouses. Hell Airdrie has a fieldhouse.. Calgary has none...

 

Why have we not broke ground on the fieldhouse? The money is set aside for it.

 

This Mayor and council does not place sports very high in importance. Instead we get blue rings beside freeways and call it art.

 

[Zirakzigil]

8 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

 

 

Why have we not broke ground on the fieldhouse? The money is set aside for it.

 

 

 

Wrong actually, there is no money set aside for one. Its one of the unfunded wishlist items the city has. I personally think both sides are in the wrong, but moreso the Flames. CalgaryNEXT was a half baked idiotic dream from Flames ownership, they didnt want anything besides that. If the Flames want to lease a new arena from the city, then they dont get to keep all the revenue thats made. If the Flames want to own the building, then they can pay property taxes on it like everyone else.   

[cross16]

15 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Why have we not broke ground on the fieldhouse? The money is set aside for it.

 

This Mayor and council does not place sports very high in importance. Instead we get blue rings beside freeways and call it art.

 

 

Zirak is right the fund for the firehouse is unfunded. They have the plans and have set aside the budget for it but they have not made a determination about how to fund it which is frustrating because its been almost 3 years since they decided to build one and they already have the location/plans for it.

 

But I agree with your premise that under the last 2 mayors this city has really not made sports a high priority and that disappointing because there is already so much here to work with. U of C has a great sports medicine and Kinesiology department, athletes from all over the world already come here and we've got 4 "professional" sports teams already here. Would be nice to see the City divert more attention to sport. Doing a bit better with 4 rec centers coming online in the next 2-3 years which is great for Youth but then you run into the problem that is so common in Canada that we can get youth involved but we fail in the transition from youth to high performance. 

 

Instead of the arts and culture district Nenshi wants to create i'd much rather see an arena and field house built with upgrades to McMahon. There is an opportunity to really make Calgary into a high performance athletics destination which probably has as many positive benefits to the city as an art and cultural district does but that's clearly not what Nenshi will focus on.