Official Sam Bennett Discussion Thread

[cross16]

bump but I really thought this was great perspective from Darren Haynes on Sam Bennett. In today's world I think we really lack the patience with young players we use to have. 

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

bump but I really thought this was great perspective from Darren Haynes on Sam Bennett. In today's world I think we really lack the patience with young players we use to have. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Ryan Johansen is overpaid now so to say he is an $8-mil player speaks more to Nashville's failure to keep their star players under good contracts than Johansen is actually that awesome.

 

I'd still trade Johansen for Seth Jones and I would still propose we trade Sam Bennett for Noah Hanifin.  Well, the later not so much now that we got Hamonic but still, the point stands.

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Unfortunately, Ryan Johansen is overpaid now so to say he is an $8-mil player speaks more to Nashville's failure to keep their star players under good contracts than Johansen is actually that awesome.

 

Well the point is not really whether or not Johnsen is overpaid and whether he is or not he is a number one center in the league. If Bennett becomes what Johansen is than Flames should be thrilled. 

 

Given that he is actually on a better trajectory that is entirely possible. That's the point. 

[The_People1]

44 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Well the point is not really whether or not Johnsen is overpaid and whether he is or not he is a number one center in the league. If Bennett becomes what Johansen is than Flames should be thrilled. 

 

Given that he is actually on a better trajectory that is entirely possible. That's the point. 

 

Pretty sure the point is to be patient with Bennett.  Aka don't trade him away or sell him short.

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Pretty sure the point is to be patient with Bennett.  Aka don't trade him away or sell him short.

 

Given where we drafted him, I still have high expectations.  Certainly others have passed him in that draft.

 

Do I think we made a mistake to draft him?  I don't.   I think it was an acceptable risk with his known shoulder injury.

 

But what I will throw out there, is:   Maybe we can be honest enough with ourselves to say it was a mistake to rush him to the NHL.

 

The guy missed a really crucial season.   Junior or the AHL would have done him wonders.

 

Just look at all the players in that draft who have passed him now...none of them were rushed.  They all had more junior or AHL time before becoming NHL stars.

 

And ....they were Healthy.   All the more reason to have given him more time.

[cross16]

31 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Pretty sure the point is to be patient with Bennett.  Aka don't trade him away or sell him short.

 

yes the point is don't sell him short, but trade away all depends on the return. 

[cross16]

38 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Given where we drafted him, I still have high expectations.  Certainly others have passed him in that draft.

 

Do I think we made a mistake to draft him?  I don't.   I think it was an acceptable risk with his known shoulder injury.

 

But what I will throw out there, is:   Maybe we can be honest enough with ourselves to say it was a mistake to rush him to the NHL.

 

The guy missed a really crucial season.   Junior or the AHL would have done him wonders.

 

Just look at all the players in that draft who have passed him now...none of them were rushed.  They all had more junior or AHL time before becoming NHL stars.

 

And ....they were Healthy.   All the more reason to have given him more time.

 

You could argue that Nylander, Ehlers, Fabri and Pasternak have passed Bennett sure. None of them spent more than 1 season in junior post draft and all of them spent the entire 15-16 season in the NHL just like Bennett. Only exception is Nylander but he played in the AHL and Bennett wasn't eligible. 

 

Bennett wasn't rushed any more than those guys where. Pasternak was actually rushed more than Bennett and has been just fine.  So was Draisatl. 

 

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

You could argue that Nylander, Ehlers, Fabri and Pasternak have passed Bennett sure. None of them spent more than 1 season in junior post draft and all of them spent the entire 15-16 season in the NHL just like Bennett. Only exception is Nylander but he played in the AHL and Bennett wasn't eligible. 

 

Ok, but you've just used different wording to say that literally All of these players played a full AHL or Junior season after the draft.  Nobody's suggested any of these elite draft picks needed more than one year, so I don't know why you're pointing this out other than to get the wording you need.  It's not relevent to my intent, in any case.

 

And these players were Not injured.  Meaning there was Less reason to hold them back.

 

Quote

Bennett wasn't rushed any more than those guys where.

 

Now you are drawing conclusions from your wording, rather than drawing conclusions from the reality that they all played a full AHL or Junior season.  They in fact All had development invested in them.

 

Quote

Pasternak was actually rushed more than Bennett and has been just fine.  

 

Again, Pasternak played 25 AHL games before being called up, and he was also never injured for a full year.   So I just don't see this to be true, I think facts still have to be considerably distorted to say this, albeit it's not as much distortion as the other players above.

[cross16]

Well if you believe that 25 AHL games or 30-40 more junior hockey games means Pasternak and Drasaitl weren't rushed(especially consider both of those guys were actually in he NHL sooner and floundered)and Bennett was, fine. But I personally think that is ridiculous but I don't think it's likely we will ever agree on that one. 

 

Especially considering the AHL was not an option for Bennett until this last season and last summer no one was talking about him needing AHL time. but I think the whole player x was rushed I still a pretty silly argument overal. As I've said in multiple threads I think Bennett is actually playing better than raw stats indicate and if the Flames would surround him with better talent you'd see better results. 

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think Bennett is actually playing better than raw stats indicate and if the Flames would surround him with better talent you'd see better results. 

 

Here's a breakdown of his most common linemates:

 

 

Quote:

 

In no surprises within extreme limited usage, Bennett reunited with Backlund and Michael Frolik to help boost the young centre into respectable shot metric territory. We saw brief snippets of decency come from the combination of Chiasson, Bennett, and Kris Versteeg which, when adjusted for score, saw the trio post a 57.4% CF at 5v5. All of this is to say – for the 10,423rd time – that the calamity of Brouwer with Bennett was reprehensible.

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Unfortunately, Ryan Johansen is overpaid now so to say he is an $8-mil player speaks more to Nashville's failure to keep their star players under good contracts than Johansen is actually that awesome.

 

I'd still trade Johansen for Seth Jones and I would still propose we trade Sam Bennett for Noah Hanifin.  Well, the later not so much now that we got Hamonic but still, the point stands.

Johansen & the BJs negotiations for his 2nd contract weren't friendly. His agent got it backloaded so the $12 million total became base pays of 3,3 & 6 insuring the 3rd contract (as the 3 years left him RFA) would start @ $6 million. The contract was set up to get him out of Columbus while giving them time to find a good trade. BJs got 1 cheap year & Seth Jones while Johansen's camp guaranteed themselves of big paydays for years unless he started dogging.

 

As far as Bennett straight across for Hanifin that's still worth doing if Ron Francis had a brain cramp. With him that would give the Flames 4 D that would return @ least a proven version of what we hope Bennett will become.

[kehatch]

I am with Cross. Bennett has played fine, and he has played very well in spurts. I have seen enough that I am not worried about him going forward. 

 

I do think the Flames need to get him onto a line where he can be successful. In part to get him going so he can help the team, but also to get him some confidence. 

 

Some have suggested putting him with Tkachuk. Personally I don't love that. Tkachuk had the benefit of being on the Backlund line. I don't think he is the guy to take on kick starting Bennett. 

 

But they need to do something. Possibly putting him on Backlunds LW. Possibly brining on a guy like Jagr. Whatever they do, it better not include Brouwer. 

[conundrumed]

43 minutes ago, kehatch said:

I am with Cross. Bennett has played fine, and he has played very well in spurts. I have seen enough that I am not worried about him going forward.

 

Some have suggested putting him with Tkachuk. Personally I don't love that. Tkachuk had the benefit of being on the Backlund line. I don't think he is the guy to take on kick starting Bennett. 

 

Clipped for relevance. How don't you tag 2 pita OHL forwards together?

Bennett and Tkachuk look like quite the pairing, imho.

[kehatch]

27 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Clipped for relevance. How don't you tag 2 pita OHL forwards together?

Bennett and Tkachuk look like quite the pairing, imho.

 

Tkachuk scored 13 times on a line that Colborne, Bouma, and virtually every player could produce on. Take him off the Backlund line and put him with Bennett and they might both struggle offensively.

 

I think the two look great as pairs on paper. I just don't think Tkachuk is at the point where he should be expected to drive a line and get another player going offensively.

 

Try it in camp for sure and if there is a lot of chemistry then give it a shot. I am pessimistic you get offensive results though. I also think Tkachuk compliments the Backlund line very well. 

[rickross]

Looking more and more like Bennett might come in closer at $3M. Some surprising overpayments this off season, so far BT has been consistent in handing out value contracts but Bennett is not just a 1st Rd pick he's the highest Flames pick ever so I'm sure his agent will be pressing hard for a higher cap hit. Flames still have a bit of work to do this off season. Still holding out for a 2-3 yr bridge deal for under $3M per year

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Tkachuk scored 13 times on a line that Colborne, Bouma, and virtually every player could produce on. Take him off the Backlund line and put him with Bennett and they might both struggle offensively.

 

I think the two look great as pairs on paper. I just don't think Tkachuk is at the point where he should be expected to drive a line and get another player going offensively.

 

Try it in camp for sure and if there is a lot of chemistry then give it a shot. I am pessimistic you get offensive results though. I also think Tkachuk compliments the Backlund line very well. 

 

There hasn't been a lot of ice time where the 3M was split up.  Those underrating Tkachuk's contribution point to the Backlund affect on Bouma or whoever.  Those underrating Backlund's growth say that Tkachuk bumped up both him and Frolik.  Much like the Brodie-Gio debate.

 

I think you could well have a 2nd line in the making with Tkachuk-Bennett.  Or you could have a top line with Tkachuk on RW.  I personally think Backs-Frolik would do just as well with Ferland or Versteeg there.  Maybe not the scoring, but close to it.  

[kehatch]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

There hasn't been a lot of ice time where the 3M was split up.  Those underrating Tkachuk's contribution point to the Backlund affect on Bouma or whoever.  Those underrating Backlund's growth say that Tkachuk bumped up both him and Frolik.  Much like the Brodie-Gio debate.

 

I think you could well have a 2nd line in the making with Tkachuk-Bennett.  Or you could have a top line with Tkachuk on RW.  I personally think Backs-Frolik would do just as well with Ferland or Versteeg there.  Maybe not the scoring, but close to it.  

 

Backlund-Frolik will be good no matter who they play with. But Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik was one of the best defensive lines in the NHL. You can't say that about Colborne or Bouma with them. 

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Tkachuk scored 13 times on a line that Colborne, Bouma, and virtually every player could produce on. Take him off the Backlund line and put him with Bennett and they might both struggle offensively.

 

I think the two look great as pairs on paper. I just don't think Tkachuk is at the point where he should be expected to drive a line and get another player going offensively.

 

Try it in camp for sure and if there is a lot of chemistry then give it a shot. I am pessimistic you get offensive results though. I also think Tkachuk compliments the Backlund line very well. 

I don't see it as correct thinking that Tkachuk is being looked at to get Bennett going, this is ridiculous IMO. The two together should be a good combination and this is what the team should be "going" for with this pairing.

[kehatch]

42 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I don't see it as correct thinking that Tkachuk is being looked at to get Bennett going, this is ridiculous IMO. The two together should be a good combination and this is what the team should be "going" for with this pairing.

 

Except Bennett is coming off of a disappointing season and the general wisdom it is (in part) due to his line mates. 

 

I don't know why some are so insistent that the two be paired together. It's an option to try in camp for sure. But there are plenty of reasons why putting a sophomore with a struggling kid may not be the best solution. 

[MAC331]

14 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Except Bennett is coming off of a disappointing season and the general wisdom it is (in part) due to his line mates. 

 

I don't know why some are so insistent that the two be paired together. It's an option to try in camp for sure. But there are plenty of reasons why putting a sophomore with a struggling kid may not be the best solution. 

I don't think Bennett was struggling at all by the end of last season, quite the opposite actually. Rather than get stuck on what anyone thinks about last season GG has to make decisions that will help this team grow into themselves. I don't view Tkachuk as your ordinary sophomore and as many have expressed including you almost anyone could do well playing with Backlund and Frolik. Tkachuk wasn't any standout from a defensive effort on that line but let's hope he learned something. The team now needs to expand with their offensive threats which is why I think you at least give Tkachuk and Bennett an extended opportunity to play together.

Quite honestly I don't mind your thought of starting out with Brouwer as the top line RW and have Ferland with Backlund and Frolik where he belongs IMO.

[cross16]

I personally don't really view I think as using Tkachuk to get Bennett going. As good a season as Tkachuk had last year he was more of a compliment to that line that he was a driver so I think it's misguided to say he can get Bennett going. 

I just think they could compliment each other's game well. Bennett likes to carry the puck and Tkachuk doesn't, but Tkachuk can do the dirty work around the net and on the cycle and free up Bennett to find open ice. I also think Tkachuks high end passing and hockey iq would be a nice add to Bennett one on one skills. 

Other part of it is the flames are limited with talented options they can put with Bennett. Unless you want to break up the top 2 pairs or move Bennett to the wing, putting him with Tkachuk is really the only option you have otherwise he's just back playing with poor talent. 

[jjgallow]

22 hours ago, cross16 said:

Bennett wasn't rushed any more than those guys where. Pasternak was actually rushed more than Bennett and has been just fine.  So was Draisatl. 

 

22 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think the whole player x was rushed I still a pretty silly argument overall. 

 

Of course, I'm cherry picking your comments a bit here, so sorry for that.   But it is honestly difficult to follow a train of thought with you on this when your opinion seems to change midstream.    I'm not sure if you're saying Pasternak was rushed, or if you're saying that's silly.    Same with Draisaitl.    

 

I do know this, there's nothing silly about thinking a player was rushed.  It is extremely common and extremely detrimental and we need not look any further than the Oilers, a place where the Draisaitl example is just he tip of the iceburg.

 

IMHO Pasternak and Draisaitl were the "lucky ones" of rushed players.   They both struggled, there was a point that some thought Draisaitl had been ruined.  But they both came back from it.  Many Don't.

 

Not all players come back from it.   But to be honest, I think most on here are actually under-selling Bennett.  I believe he's a tremendous talent, and I think his current performance is a result of rushing him back from Extremely serious injury to the NHL at an inappropriate age.    That's like a double-wammy, and that's why he's struggling to come back from it more than Draisaitl or Pasternak (neither of which have his raw abilities, if I can be blunt).   It should be a top priority of the Flames to get him where he needs to be.  Which is probably around double the production he has now.

 

Ryan Nugent Hopkins.

[cross16]

The rushed argument is flawed because it implies that all prospects are destined to be nhlers and ignores all other variables. Was RNH actually rushed? How do you know the results would have been any different if he spent 3 years in junior/the AHL? How much weight gets put on the fact that the scouts likely got it wrong and elements of RNHs game didn't translate well? Why do we assume that all development is linear and therefore any deviation requires an explanation? way too simplistic to simple say he was "rushed" and imo it's taking the easy way out and that's why I don't like it. That's not a personal comment to you at all either JJ it's my general view of the rushed argument in general. 

 

Bennett could bust from here on out and I will never agree he got "rushed" or that had anything to do with the results. He passed every test up until this season and I still think he is passing several tests as he goes so I don't think him being in junior changes the results or changes where he is today. 

 

[conundrumed]

22 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Of course, I'm cherry picking your comments a bit here, so sorry for that.   But it is honestly difficult to follow a train of thought with you on this when your opinion seems to change midstream.    I'm not sure if you're saying Pasternak was rushed, or if you're saying that's silly.    Same with Draisaitl.    

 

I do know this, there's nothing silly about thinking a player was rushed.  It is extremely common and extremely detrimental and we need not look any further than the Oilers, a place where the Draisaitl example is just he tip of the iceburg.

 

IMHO Pasternak and Draisaitl were the "lucky ones" of rushed players.   They both struggled, there was a point that some thought Draisaitl had been ruined.  But they both came back from it.  Many Don't.

 

Not all players come back from it.   But to be honest, I think most on here are actually under-selling Bennett.  I believe he's a tremendous talent, and I think his current performance is a result of rushing him back from Extremely serious injury to the NHL at an inappropriate age.    That's like a double-wammy, and that's why he's struggling to come back from it more than Draisaitl or Pasternak (neither of which have his raw abilities, if I can be blunt).   It should be a top priority of the Flames to get him where he needs to be.  Which is probably around double the production he has now.

 

Ryan Nugent Hopkins.

Lol. How about Dylan Larkin?

A realistic comparable...

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

The rushed argument is flawed because it implies that all prospects are destined to be nhlers and ignores all other variables.

 

So, just a second, I really have to say that throughout my whole life, I've never heard of the term "rushed" being specific to hockey, let alone NHLers.    My most common experiences with it are is probably:

1.   bad relationships I've been in

2.   kids getting advanced into midget hockey too quickly

 

This is literally the first time I've ever heard that "rushed" implies that all prospects are destined to be NHLers.   Nor can I find any reason why anyone would think that.   Nor can I find any misuse of it on this thread that would make you think that...can you?  

 

Just saying.